Source for stamping covers?

[belwar]

Does anyone have a decent domestic source for stamping Nickel Silver covers/parts? I'm *considering* having some covers made. I was going to try to do it myself, but I realized its easier to throw money at the problem.

Anyone?

[Possum]

Do a search here on the forum, search for "deep draw covers" which is kind of what they are. A couple companies names were mentioned. Yes, it will take money. I know Tom Holmes makes his own in his garage, so mostly you need to find a company that will take the time to do what you ask and do them right. I think what pickup makers want in a cover isn't what any of these companies usually do for deep draw boxes. What I hate about the cheap commercial ones is the concave sides and roundish tops. I wonder if there is some annealing process that happens, maybe it takes more than just one punch to do it. Holmes told me his take a long time to make, he won't talk about how he does his.

[NightWinder]

Whatever you do, source the right Nickel content...I've tried different stamps.2 process, and 3 process and if you are doing them yourself be prepared. I could have saved time getting the right material. If you do get going yourself, get some same gauge Brass also to prototype on. You'll save money

[belwar]

That is very good advise! Thanks!

[GuitarmanUK]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

Whatever you do, source the right Nickel content...

Years ago, I remember buying a nickel/zinc/copper alloy which was more or less nickel colour and polished up very nicely, can't remember the percentage nickel.
Just wondering, does anyone know what alloy is generally used?

[defaced]

I remember buying a nickel/zinc/copper alloy which was more or less nickel colour and polished up very nicely, can't remember the percentage nickel

Do you have a piece you'd be willing to sacrifice? Optical emission spectroscopy will be able to nail those alloys with ease. Probably would cost around 100 bucks to have it done at a met lab.

[GuitarmanUK]

Originally Posted by defaced

Do you have a piece you'd be willing to sacrifice? Optical emission spectroscopy will be able to nail those alloys with ease. Probably would cost around 100 bucks to have it done at a met lab.

Thanks, I've probably got some scrap bits somewhere kicking about, but I do know which company it came from, so I could find out what that alloy is.

I was just interested what alloy Gibson, Fender etc would have used...

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by GuitarmanUK

Just wondering, does anyone know what alloy is generally used?

Nickel silver is usually 60% Copper, 20% Nickel, 20% Zinc.

[Artur pickupmaker]

Nickel silver is also known as "alpaca" alloy.
Most Fender Tele neck pickup cover is brass.
Gibson says nickel silver is soniclly "more transparent" than brass.

[David King]

I know a guy with a 25 ton press for sale. It would probably do the job but just barely. I believe it's hydraulic. I see 40 ton ones on craigslist all the time. $850 -3500.

[Possum]

Alpaca alloy? Thats a new one me. In the jewelry trade nickel silver is known as German Silver. There definitely are alot of variations of it. Mojo did some bucker baseplates, that were real yellowish, probably more copper maybe, they fixed the problem but I guess you do have to be careful, should be softer for stamping. One thing about stamping and why I mentioned wondering if Holmes is using some kind of annealing maybe, is once you punch those suckers into covers, they are VERY work hardened and if the tops or sides aren't flat it would take a tremendous amount of force to further flatten them. I found this out when I decided to try bead blasting them for a matte look. The beads I think relaxed the tension on the side being blasted and the cover would seriously distort unless I also blasted the inside, I abandoned the idea eventually. I think in a multi process deep draw the punches and mold are heated, if you do a search on the last thread we did on this subject, one company is mentioned and their website has info on how the process is done in 3 steps. Maybe you could find some old timer and find out how stuff like that was done in the 50's because those old PAF covers aren't like modern factory pickup covers at all. The covers we get now also have stretch marks or vertical scratches on the sides if you look close that I don't see on old PAF covers either....

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by Artur pickupmaker

Nickel silver is also known as "alpaca" alloy.

I don't think that's the case...

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by Possum

Mojo did some bucker baseplates, that were real yellowish, probably more copper maybe, they fixed the problem but I guess you do have to be careful, should be softer for stamping.

Sounds like it was verging into brass, at the loss of "sonic transparency". The lower the eddy currents, the greater the transparency.

The way to tell is to ask the vendor what the bulk resistivity of the metal is. The higher the value, the lower the eddy currents, the more transparent the cover. The units of resistivity are ohm-centimeters or microhm-centimeters or ohm-meters or the like.

One thing about stamping and why I mentioned wondering if Holmes is using some kind of annealing maybe, is once you punch those suckers into covers, they are VERY work hardened and if the tops or sides aren't flat it would take a tremendous amount of force to further flatten them. I found this out when I decided to try bead blasting them for a matte look. The beads I think relaxed the tension on the side being blasted and the cover would seriously distort unless I also blasted the inside, I abandoned the idea eventually.

One can anneal nickel silver pretty easily: heat to a dull red heat (or just below) and quench in water. Yes, quench in water, the exact opposite of what one does to anneal ferrous alloys.

Be careful with the hot metal - brass can be "hot short", which means it is mechanically weak while hot.

[GuitarmanUK]

Originally Posted by Artur pickupmaker

Nickel silver is also known as "alpaca" alloy.

According to Wiki entry for nickel silver: "Other common names for this alloy are German silver, paktong, new silver and alpacca (or alpaca)...
Alpacca became a widely known name in northern Europe for nickel silver after it was used as a trademark brand by the manufacturer Berndorf"

Most Fender Tele neck pickup cover is brass.
Gibson says nickel silver is soniclly "more transparent" than brass.

I would think brass is a bit easier for deep drawing.

[Possum]

Yes the yellowish baseplates were doing the eddy current bop dance on the LCR meter, pissed me off because I was doing an experiment and shouldn't have used it. Nickel silver you probably want to anneal and quench in jeweler's pickle or you'll get firescale (oxidized copper) like you do with sterling silver. Thats just a guess, never worked with the stuff, in the jewelry world its considered junk metal really.

[GuitarmanUK]

Originally Posted by Joe Gwinn

The way to tell is to ask the vendor what the bulk resistivity of the metal is. The higher the value, the lower the eddy currents, the more transparent the cover. The units of resistivity are ohm-centimeters or microhm-centimeters or ohm-meters or the like.

Looking at the electrical resistivity of copper, zinc, and nickel, you would think brass and nickel silver would not be that much different in resistance.



Comparing a brass alloy (60% copper 40% zinc) to nickel silver (60% copper 20% nickel, 20% zinc), it looks like the resistivity for the two alloys are approx 3.4 ohms vs. 3.6 ohms (x 10-8)

Resistivity in ohms/meter
Copper 1.72×10-8
Zinc 5.90×10-8
Nickel 6.99×10-8

[Possum]

Well it does make a difference, on the LCR meter, even though the old Mojo baseplate wasn't really either brass or nickel silver, you can see a midboost with the Mojo baseplate vs. the nickel silver plate from AllParts. You can also hear it as well, a slight treble drop with the brassier baseplate. It actually sounded good for what I was doing but Mojo had them change the mix to a real nickel silver ratio.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by GuitarmanUK

Looking at the electrical resistivity of copper, zinc, and nickel, you would think brass and nickel silver would not be that much different in resistance.

Yes, you would think so. I have heard the difference in tone with covers. I wonder if they make the brass covers thicker, because they can?

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by GuitarmanUK

Looking at the electrical resistivity of copper, zinc, and nickel, you would think brass and nickel silver would not be that much different in resistance.

Not so. Alloying makes a big difference. Look up the resistivity of the alloys, not just the elements being alloyed.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Originally Posted by GuitarmanUK

According to Wiki entry for nickel silver: "Other common names for this alloy are German silver, paktong, new silver and alpacca (or alpaca)...
Alpacca became a widely known name in northern Europe for nickel silver after it was used as a trademark brand by the manufacturer Berndorf"

I can verify that. Alpacca is the most common name for Nickle Silver in Sweden toghether with "new silver".

[kevinT]

Damn, I thought Alpacca was a new hybrid/mut sheep that Spence was breeding on his farm.

[kevinT]

I wish Tom Holmes would make a video making his covers.

[Possum]

That you will never see. I talked to him about a month ago and he said his ace in the hole is his parts making capabilities. He said I could ask him anything except how he makes his stuff. He said his covers take a long time to make.

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Damn, I thought Alpacca was a new hybrid/mut sheep that Spence was breeding on his farm.

Yeah, you wish!

[belwar]

well i found my source and got a quote. Im going to have some nickel silver P90 covers made. It'l cost me about 1500-1700 for tooling and first run. Not to bad if you ask me. Now I just need to design it!

bel

[Possum]

BareKnuckles makes those, maybe snag one and see what they did. If you ever want to sell any of those, they are something I'd love to have, plus ones with no holes as well....

[Artur pickupmaker]

Originally Posted by GuitarmanUK

Comparing a brass alloy (60% copper 40% zinc) to nickel silver (60% copper 20% nickel, 20% zinc), it looks like the resistivity for the two alloys are approx 3.4 ohms vs. 3.6 ohms (x 10-8)

Resistivity in ohms/meter
Copper 1.72×10-8
Zinc 5.90×10-8
Nickel 6.99×10-8

The resistivity of an alloy is not the mid resistivity of its elements, can be very different from this value. Details of chemistry.

Here we call nickel silver "alpaca" alloy since we don't speak english. The proportion considerated right for this alloy is 60% copper, 22% zinc and 18% nickel. I think is the same alloy used for neck frets.
Do not confund with tha andinian animal called alpaca, from the family camelidae, relative to tha llama, guanaco and the vicuña.

[David King]

Adding more than 18% nickel to the mix makes it very difficult or impossible to work. Soft fretwire is usually around 12% nickel. I'd think this 12% stuff would be much easier to deep draw too.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Possum

That you will never see. I talked to him about a month ago and he said his ace in the hole is his parts making capabilities. He said I could ask him anything except how he makes his stuff. He said his covers take a long time to make.

I wonder if he folds and solders them? That's how the original Travis Bean covers were made.

[Possum]

No, he obviously does them how they did them in vintage days, I have a set of his and a PAF cover as well, his are slightly better. They just took more time to make a better product back then. Good luck getting that quality out of any supplier unless you can go to their shop and be somewhat in their face. Still, maybe like alot of things its a lost art.....

[Bruce Johnson]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

I wonder if he folds and solders them? That's how the original Travis Bean covers were made.

That's my guess too. With some labor and craftsmanship, you can make up a fabricated part that's nearly identical in appearance to a stamped or deep drawn part. That's how you make up prototype parts before investing in having the tooling made up.

Even a complex contoured part can be made this way. For example, you can divide the shell up into sections that are formed separately by simple dies in a small hydraulic press. Some sections can be hand formed with a hammer and shaped anvil. Then the parts are trimmed and soldered together and smoothed out. After plating, the joints are invisible. It's all classic metalworking technique. And yes, it takes a lot more labor than a production stamping operation.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Possum

No, he obviously does them how they did them in vintage days, I have a set of his and a PAF cover as well, his are slightly better. They just took more time to make a better product back then. Good luck getting that quality out of any supplier unless you can go to their shop and be somewhat in their face. Still, maybe like alot of things its a lost art.....

Yeah, but in the vintage days they just stamped them out. As Bruce pointed out you can fold and solder them, and that is more time consuming.

So if he doesn't have a press and a die, maybe he's doing it that way.

It's not a lost art, it's standard metal working.

[Possum]

It would be real obvious to me if they had been soldered together, don't forget I was an art jeweler and metals artist for a long time, you can't hide that kind of stuff. Yes they just stamped them out but the craftsmanship was obviously much higher than today, they weren't doing the same technique. The difference is profitability, maximum quantity at lowest quality. Pickup cover manufacturers could give a rat's butt about whether the tops are flat or the sides don't have scrape marks and are concave. Tom told me commercial guys can't make them the way he does. Soldering them together would be hugely time consuming. I made some silver boxes and they don't come out looking like PAF covers at all and you can see the solder if you know what to look for. I am guessing he is annealing and doing a second shaping possibly in a different die, which flattens everything out and returns the metal to work hardened; you certainly don't want an annealed cover on a pickup.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Possum

Yes they just stamped them out but the craftsmanship was obviously much higher than today, they weren't doing the same technique. The difference is profitability, maximum quantity at lowest quality. Pickup cover manufacturers could give a rat's butt about whether the tops are flat or the sides don't have scrape marks and are concave. Tom told me commercial guys can't make them the way he does.

I agree more time was spent making things in the past, with more attention to detail.

Soldering them together would be hugely time consuming.

Right, but you did say:

Originally Posted by Possum

That you will never see. I talked to him about a month ago and he said his ace in the hole is his parts making capabilities. He said I could ask him anything except how he makes his stuff. He said his covers take a long time to make.

So it takes him longer than stamping, but less than soldering? I figured they take a long time, so it they have been bent and soldered.

I am guessing he is annealing and doing a second shaping possibly in a different die, which flattens everything out and returns the metal to work hardened; you certainly don't want an annealed cover on a pickup.

Sounds like a possibility.

[Possum]

He sells alot of pickups, would you want to sit there folding up sides in metal and soldering each one, its just not practical and would be very difficult to repeat perfectly much less even do one perfectly. It would take hours just to make one. I wouldn't even attempt such a thing especially in thin metal like a bucker cover. The metal would have to be cut exactly perfectly and incredibly difficult to fold up the sides, you'd have problems with the corners. Assembling individually cut sides would be a nightmare as well, you would have flaws and visible solder on the inside of the cover. I don't think this is even a possibility, I'd like to see anyone make a convincing cover using soldering. You'd be able to tell the holes weren't punched too if you drilled them. The other problem is firescale, there is a high content of copper in N/S more than sterling and with that much soldering you'd have a problem with that, its very difficult to get rid of. And you would end up with a cover thats annealed from soldering and pickling, his covers are work hard like all of them are...