Another another T top question

EFK · 01-29-2010, 01:09 AM

I'm really fascinated with these pickups. There is however very little 'solid' information out there. Did these EVER come stock from Gibson with the T on each bobbin opposing each other? Every *unmolested* t top I have seen (sans covers) has the T's oriented in the same direction. Anyone ever seen one with the T's opposed - and with one blue bobbin lead? Or does that spell rewind? Tape looks untouched, these are late 60s.

Possum · 01-29-2010, 02:10 AM

Never seen that before. The only odd thing I've seen and is fairly common was some of the earlier ones had a T on one bobbin and no T on the other. The latest one I have has red and white leads....so it is possible yours is original and just a fluke.

SkinnyWire · 01-30-2010, 04:23 PM

I've seen "opposing Ts". I don't think it's necessarily an indicator of a rewind or other tampering. Not sure about the color thing. YMMV.

LtKojak · 01-31-2010, 09:59 AM

To stay on topic... were T-Tops A2 or A5?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

EFK · 01-31-2010, 01:06 PM

I had always assumed they were all A5 short mags, but I've seen a few posts here and there (by Jon Gundry) mention A2 short mags through 67 or 68, so I suppose now it's up in the air. Most of the old A5 (I should say *all* that I've got, but I'll use "most" to cover my ass) will not take a charge comparable to modern A5, so it doesn't always seem possible to distinguish just by charging them up and measuring.

SkinnyWire · 01-31-2010, 03:15 PM

A5

Possum · 02-01-2010, 06:24 AM

Pretty sure they're A5, the early ones were short but thick like the short PAF mags, then came the really thin skinny ones that suck, then then went back to the big short ones again. Might be A2 in there somewhere, never tried charging one of the big ones to see how high a charge it would hold, but that might not tell me anything anyway..........

LtKojak · 02-01-2010, 03:13 PM

Short A5 magnets that sucked it is!

jason lollar · 02-05-2010, 11:56 PM

I reproduced a set ot T tops for jim williamson oh 6 weeks ago. It was the guitar Raw Power was redorded with- you guys know what that is?
The pickups had been re-leaded at one time but the coils were untouched as far as I could tell- note the T's facing each other. I am sure I have seen it before too.

EFK · 02-09-2010, 12:06 PM

And here's another one: what is the deal with the T tops that are essentially T tops, but have no T's on the bobbins? I have a few of them which (1) have the patent sticker and 'L' toolmarks, (2) one white and one black lead, (3) braided leads, (4) mixed phillips/slotted screws and (5) CHROME covers. [As a side note, one has 4 nickel plate slugs and 2 chrome plate slugs!] Now judging by the chrome, this should mean mid-1965 and so one would think the orange poly wire, am I right? But all of them have a dark purple looking wire and still retain the view holes on top.

Is there a firm date for the transition to the orange poly? I always had assumed chrome cover meant T bobbin and poly wire.

FWIW, some of these magnets won't hold a decent charge worth a damn, others could pull down low flying aircraft when full charged.

rodb · 02-09-2010, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason lollar

I reproduced a set ot T tops for jim williamson oh 6 weeks ago. It was the guitar Raw Power was redorded with- you guys know what that is?
The pickups had been re-leaded at one time but the coils were untouched as far as I could tell- note the T's facing each other. I am sure I have seen it before too.

I just talked to you about these on facebook!!
His sound is fairly unique, is the one in the bridge hotter than the neck and is there anything different with that pickup?

cryptozoo · 02-09-2010, 06:47 PM

Jason, thanks for posting the photo -- I'm a huge Stooges fan! The remix of that album is still one of the 'loudest' around, it sounds like the speakers are tearing apart because of all the energy.

As for opposing Ts, I've seen it in the wild but it's not very common. I've also seen rewinds that were put together incorrectly like that, so it would be somewhat suspect to me were I looking to buy one as an 'original.'

As for T-Tops with wire view holes, in my experience there are none...

EFK · 02-09-2010, 08:27 PM

Not to confuse anyone - I'm not talking about view holes w/ T bobbins, but the "grey" area b/t the early patent #s and the T bobbins. I've read repeatedly that chrome was phased in ca. 1965, and by the time the covers are chrome the bobbin wire is supposed to be orange. These are chrome covers w/ view holes, no T, but dark reddish-purple wire. So where do they fit in?

cryptozoo · 02-09-2010, 08:38 PM

The pre-T wire isn't stark orange to my eyes. It might be hard to know for sure without seeing it in person and comparing it side by side to PAF wire. It can be tough to identify wire from pics because of color variation.

Based on your bobbin lead color, you've probably got the later wire. I've owned a bunch and still have a few, and my two with black lead wires are the only ones I've had that have darker colored wire.

Possum · 02-10-2010, 03:07 AM

If they still have the viewing holes and dark red/maroon/purplish wire those are probably PAF spec bobbins. ONly way to tell is take the wire off and you don't want to do that. The wire is probably some form of PE which is great. There does seem to be transitional stuff happening with mix of parts, T bobbins with PAF bobbins etc. The tiny small magnets are awful, don't hold much charge for very long. The long magnets in TTops were from the very start and I see them again much later as well.

EFK · 02-10-2010, 01:05 PM

Can you give me an idea of that the "tiny" crappy mag measurements are? Are they the same size as the typical 'short' A5? Those were what - .125X.250X@2.3? I think I'll try to take some pics and post them - might be interesting to someone. One of these has bobbins w/ view holes that have this weird shrunken warped thing going on, but they're not butyrate I don't think.

I'll try to get some pictures of the wire through the view holes as I really don;t want to untape anything - tape looks hardened and brittle now.

jason lollar · 02-10-2010, 11:12 PM

the neck read higher in ohms and henries than the bridge- I would have to say the pickup did not look re-wound so I really believe the T's were originally together on that pickup.
other than that they sound really close to my personal 71 LP custom but his had no covers so they were a little brighter- pretty microphonic too.

rodb · 02-11-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason lollar

the neck read higher in ohms and henries than the bridge- I would have to say the pickup did not look re-wound so I really believe the T's were originally together on that pickup.
other than that they sound really close to my personal 71 LP custom but his had no covers so they were a little brighter- pretty microphonic too.

Thanks!

Possum · 02-12-2010, 03:10 AM

This is one of the crappy magnets, I've seen even smaller versions:
.122" thick
.477" wide
2.31" long

01-29-2010, 01:09 AM	#1
EFK Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 279	Another another T top question I'm really fascinated with these pickups. There is however very little 'solid' information out there. Did these EVER come stock from Gibson with the T on each bobbin opposing each other? Every unmolested t top I have seen (sans covers) has the T's oriented in the same direction. Anyone ever seen one with the T's opposed - and with one blue bobbin lead? Or does that spell rewind? Tape looks untouched, these are late 60s.

01-29-2010, 02:10 AM	#2
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 3,139	... Never seen that before. The only odd thing I've seen and is fairly common was some of the earlier ones had a T on one bobbin and no T on the other. The latest one I have has red and white leads....so it is possible yours is original and just a fluke. __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

01-31-2010, 09:59 AM	#4
LtKojak Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milano, Italy Posts: 311	To stay on topic... were T-Tops A2 or A5? Inquiring minds would like to know... __________________ Pepe aka Lt. Kojak Milano, Italy

02-01-2010, 06:24 AM	#7
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 3,139	... Pretty sure they're A5, the early ones were short but thick like the short PAF mags, then came the really thin skinny ones that suck, then then went back to the big short ones again. Might be A2 in there somewhere, never tried charging one of the big ones to see how high a charge it would hold, but that might not tell me anything anyway.......... __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

02-01-2010, 03:13 PM	#8
LtKojak Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milano, Italy Posts: 311	Short A5 magnets that sucked it is! __________________ Pepe aka Lt. Kojak Milano, Italy

01-30-2010, 04:23 PM	#3
SkinnyWire Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 272 Member's Picture Albums	I've seen "opposing Ts". I don't think it's necessarily an indicator of a rewind or other tampering. Not sure about the color thing. YMMV.

01-31-2010, 01:06 PM	#5
EFK Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 279	I had always assumed they were all A5 short mags, but I've seen a few posts here and there (by Jon Gundry) mention A2 short mags through 67 or 68, so I suppose now it's up in the air. Most of the old A5 (I should say all that I've got, but I'll use "most" to cover my ass) will not take a charge comparable to modern A5, so it doesn't always seem possible to distinguish just by charging them up and measuring.

01-31-2010, 03:15 PM	#6
SkinnyWire Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 272 Member's Picture Albums	A5

02-09-2010, 12:06 PM	#10
EFK Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 279	And here's another one: what is the deal with the T tops that are essentially T tops, but have no T's on the bobbins? I have a few of them which (1) have the patent sticker and 'L' toolmarks, (2) one white and one black lead, (3) braided leads, (4) mixed phillips/slotted screws and (5) CHROME covers. [As a side note, one has 4 nickel plate slugs and 2 chrome plate slugs!] Now judging by the chrome, this should mean mid-1965 and so one would think the orange poly wire, am I right? But all of them have a dark purple looking wire and still retain the view holes on top. Is there a firm date for the transition to the orange poly? I always had assumed chrome cover meant T bobbin and poly wire. FWIW, some of these magnets won't hold a decent charge worth a damn, others could pull down low flying aircraft when full charged.

02-09-2010, 06:47 PM	#12
cryptozoo Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Home Posts: 39	Jason, thanks for posting the photo -- I'm a huge Stooges fan! The remix of that album is still one of the 'loudest' around, it sounds like the speakers are tearing apart because of all the energy. As for opposing Ts, I've seen it in the wild but it's not very common. I've also seen rewinds that were put together incorrectly like that, so it would be somewhat suspect to me were I looking to buy one as an 'original.' As for T-Tops with wire view holes, in my experience there are none...

02-09-2010, 08:27 PM	#13
EFK Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 279	Not to confuse anyone - I'm not talking about view holes w/ T bobbins, but the "grey" area b/t the early patent #s and the T bobbins. I've read repeatedly that chrome was phased in ca. 1965, and by the time the covers are chrome the bobbin wire is supposed to be orange. These are chrome covers w/ view holes, no T, but dark reddish-purple wire. So where do they fit in?

02-09-2010, 08:38 PM	#14
cryptozoo Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Home Posts: 39	The pre-T wire isn't stark orange to my eyes. It might be hard to know for sure without seeing it in person and comparing it side by side to PAF wire. It can be tough to identify wire from pics because of color variation. Based on your bobbin lead color, you've probably got the later wire. I've owned a bunch and still have a few, and my two with black lead wires are the only ones I've had that have darker colored wire.

02-10-2010, 03:07 AM	#15
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 3,139	... If they still have the viewing holes and dark red/maroon/purplish wire those are probably PAF spec bobbins. ONly way to tell is take the wire off and you don't want to do that. The wire is probably some form of PE which is great. There does seem to be transitional stuff happening with mix of parts, T bobbins with PAF bobbins etc. The tiny small magnets are awful, don't hold much charge for very long. The long magnets in TTops were from the very start and I see them again much later as well. __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

02-10-2010, 01:05 PM	#16
EFK Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 279	Can you give me an idea of that the "tiny" crappy mag measurements are? Are they the same size as the typical 'short' A5? Those were what - .125X.250X@2.3? I think I'll try to take some pics and post them - might be interesting to someone. One of these has bobbins w/ view holes that have this weird shrunken warped thing going on, but they're not butyrate I don't think. I'll try to get some pictures of the wire through the view holes as I really don;t want to untape anything - tape looks hardened and brittle now.

02-10-2010, 11:12 PM	#17
jason lollar Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 171	the neck read higher in ohms and henries than the bridge- I would have to say the pickup did not look re-wound so I really believe the T's were originally together on that pickup. other than that they sound really close to my personal 71 LP custom but his had no covers so they were a little brighter- pretty microphonic too.

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02-12-2010, 03:10 AM	#19
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 3,139	... This is one of the crappy magnets, I've seen even smaller versions: .122" thick .477" wide 2.31" long __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

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