Mustang pickups same as Strat pickups?

[Busterdawg]

Does anyone here know if there are any differences between early Fender Mustang pickups and early Fender Strat pickups, other than the cover?

A friend of mine thinks there is isn't from what he has seen. He also had the thought that he couldn't see Fender making a special Mustang pickup that is essentially identical in size and structure to the Strat pickup when it would be more cost effective to just increase the size of the material order for Strat pickups and use them in the Mustang.

[Spence]

Can you be a little more specific when you say 'early'?

[Busterdawg]

The pre-CBS 1964 Mustang and the CBS Mustangs that followed from 1965 through the 1970s. The theory that was put forth to me was that those Mustangs use Stratocaster pickups.

I have had 1965 Mustang and a 1971 Mustang. Those pickups looked very Strat like to me but having never owned a Strat from that time period I had nothing to compare them with.

[David Schwab]

No, they are not the same. The bobbins are a little smaller, the magnets are the same height and almost flush with the top flatwork.

The notes I have say the Mustang has 7600 turns (5.5K) while the 50's Strats range between 7956 (5.76k) to 8293 (6.33k) for a 1960 pickup. Also the Mustang is wound CCW while the Strat is CW. The Mustang is south up. Early Strat pickups are North up.

The Duosonic pickups were different from both of them. Mustangs are very nice guitars though.

It wasn't a whole lot of work for them to make a pickup.

[Tele-Bob]

So what about Musicmaster Bass pickups? I have an old one that looks like a Strat pickup. I surprised to see 6 poles when flipped it over.

[David Schwab]

So what about Musicmaster Bass pickups? I have an old one that looks like a Strat pickup. I surprised to see 6 poles when flipped it over.

Same specs as the Mustang pickups.

[Sweetfinger]

I've seen one that had a second layer of flatwork on the top, presumably to keep the poles from popping through and distorting the cover. All of the old Musicmaster/Mustang/Duo pickups sound just peachy and cost like an 8th of a similar year Strat pickup. .....um, wait! no! they're completely different and sound horrible. Who has one?

[David Schwab]

Who has one?

I have a '72 Mustang. It's a very nice guitar. I had replaced the pickups with Lawrence L-250s though, but I have the original pickups (which are now dead).

Here's one of the pickups, sans wire. I'm going to get around to rewinding it one of these days.

It's hard to say if the pickups sound like a Strat, since it's a short scale guitar. I haven't tried the pickups in another guitar.

[Busterdawg]

Did you gauge the coil wire by any chance? I'd be curious to know what was used now that I know that they were actually different pickups than the strat.

[David Schwab]

Did you gauge the coil wire by any chance? I'd be curious to know what was used now that I know that they were actually different pickups than the strat.

No, I didn't. I don't have anything to gauge the wire with.

But here's the other pickup, which it turns out is still good. It looks like PE wire, and I'd guess 42 AWG. It reads 5.73K.

Also I compared it directly to a Strat pickup, and they are indeed the same size. I don't know why I thought it was slightly smaller.

[Busterdawg]

Also I compared it directly to a Strat pickup, and they are indeed the same size. I don't know why I thought it was slightly smaller.

So basically Fender could have used the same bobbins they used for a Strat as well as the same mags (although only one height to keep the poles flush) and to give it a bit of a twist, a CCW wind with the south up orientation and slightly under-wound as compared with Strat pups.

I really appreciate the detective work, David. I have been fascinated of late by some of Fender's less popular guitars - Mustang, Duo, Jaguar, Starcaster.

The Mustang is a great guitar and really is under-rated. I'd throw the Jaguar into that category as well.

I just thought of another question for anyone tapping into this thread-

Other than the metal "claw" and different pickup cover, is an early (1964 thru 1970s) Jaguar pickup similar to a Strat also, meaning magnet type, coil wire, bobbin size?

[jason lollar]

bobbins are different on a jag- there is no bump out where the eyelets install like on a strat pickup- there is an eyele on each end near the height adjustment screws.

[soundmasterg]

I used to have a real 1956 Duo Sonic that I've since sold.....the pickups on it were similar to a Strat, but a little weaker, with flush poles on top, and they sounded fantastic.

Greg

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Hi all,
FWIW, I own a fully original 1969 "Competition" Mustang in candy apple red (with matching headstock), if you guys deem it useful, I will remove the pickguard and post the pickup specs (along with some pics), only, I ask you all to be patient 'cause I'm dealing with very serious problems at home and don't have much time to spare for playing with my beloved toys, so it could take a little time.

I seem to remember the pickups looked exactly like a couple of strat pickups when I took a look "under the hood" years ago, but I can't be 100% sure.

Best regards

Bob

[soundmasterg]

Here are the specs for the pickups from the 1957 Duo Sonic if anyone wanted them?

Bridge Pickup

DCR = 5.75k
ACR @ 1k = 8.53k
ACR @ 120Hz = 5.93k
Inductance @ 1k = 1.794 Henries
Inductance @ 120Hz = 1.99 Henries
Q @ 1k = 1.266
Q @ 120Hz = .259

Neck Pickup

DCR = 5.75k
ACR @ 1k = 8.7k
ACR @ 120Hz = 5.95k
Inductance @ 1k = 1.839 Henries
Inductance @ 120Hz = 2.14 Henries
Q @ 1k = 1.276
Q @ 120Hz = .2646

These used 42 gauge heavy formvar, the gauss at the poles at the top of the pickup were around 650, and they were flat polepieces on the top rather than staggered like some other Fenders of the time. Hope that helps anyone looking for specs.

Greg

[Spence]

They are not similar. They are the very same pickup. No difference and that's why a lot of Music masters and Duo Sonics have been robbed of their pickups.

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Hi all,
As promised, here are the specs of my "gutted out" '69 Mustang's pickups.
FWIW (I'm far less knowledgeable) I agree with Spence that these are exactly the very same pickups that can be found in many Strats of the same period.

Neck Pickup :

Wire : AWG#42 PE

Wire color - reddish brown ( or brownish red if you like it better )

Inductance - 2,26 H
DC resistance - 5,62 KOhm
Equivalent winding capacitance - approx. 104 pF
Resonant peak frequency (no load) - 10.38 Khz

Windings: 7600 (educated guess)

Winding direction : CCW

Magnet(s) material : AlNiCo V

Magnets polarity : North up

magnet(s) diameter - 4.8 mm (0.190")

Magnet(s) height - 15.8 mm (0.622")

Base length - 84mm (3.307")

Base width - 22.9 mm (0.901")

Upper flange length - 66.8mm (2.629")

Upper flange width - 15.4 mm (0.606")


Bridge pickup :

Wire : AWG#42 PE

Wire color - reddish brown ( or brownish red if you like it better )
Inductance - 2,16 H
DC resistance - 5,70 KOhm
Equivalent winding capacitance - approx. 108 pF
Resonant peak frequency (no load) - 10.42 Khz

Windings: 7650 (educated guess)

Winding direction : CW

Magnet(s) material : AlNiCo V

Magnets polarity : South up

magnet(s) diameter - 4.8 mm (0.190")

Magnet(s) height - 15.8 mm (0.622")

Base length - 84mm (3.307")

Base width - 22.9 mm (0.901")

Upper flange length - 66.8mm (2.629")

Upper flange width - 15.4 mm (0.606")


Hope this helps
Best regards
Bob

Note-I've tried to upload some pics I took, but with no luck, apparently the "attachments management" doesn't work anymore. I'll try to post them later to complement the above specs.

[David Schwab]

Note-I've tried to upload some pics I took, but with no luck, apparently the "attachments management" doesn't work anymore. I'll try to post them later to complement the above specs.

It does work, but it's a less intuitive way to do it. It took me a few minutes to figure it out.

Follow what I wrote here:

I need a better way to hold the bobbin

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Thanks David,
I seemed to have a different problem, though....When I selected the file(s) they didn't add to the "previously uploaded files" pane, and I got an exclamation mark instead....

I'll try again today hoping to be luckier....I also found a nice shot of the whole guitar I took time ago, I'll try to post it as well.

Cheers

Bob

Edit : Just tried to upload the files and got the same error, I guess I'll have to notify Tboy about it....

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Hi all,
seems like the "attachments" menu is working fine now, many thanks to tboy for fixing the problem!

Hope you'll find the pics useful, I'm not that good as a photographer, but I hope they make for a good complement to the specs I previously posted.

Hope this helps
Best regards
Bob

[David Schwab]

That's a nice looking Mustang. Are those the original knobs? Mine has Jazz Bass style knobs. My MOP pickguard has warped to the point where I had to remove it from the guitar. Now i have to find a good replacement. I got one from WD years ago and had to send it back... it was very poorly done. None of the holes lined up and the switch holes were hand cut with a Dremel! Maybe a new Fender pickguard will fit.

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Thanks David,
AFAIK the guitar is fully original, I bought it some 20 years ago from the original owner, the father of a good friend of mine, who bought it new in 1970.

The pickguard has shrunk very little on my Mustang, the mounting screws' holes are now slightly misaligned, nothing serious though....

Interestingly, the pickups bear a 1969 date code, while the pots bear a 1966 date code, which seems to suggest that Fender was keeping a truly HUGE quantity of pots in stock at the time.

Cheers

Bob

[chevalij]

Here's a mustang pickup that I believe to be a 66. North up, 5.74k and 2.33h

[fieldwrangler]

Did anyone check the magnet spacing on these Mustang pickups?

[David Schwab]

Did anyone check the magnet spacing on these Mustang pickups?

Same as the Strat pickups I have here.

[fieldwrangler]

Thanks, David!

I have here a pickup that looks fiendishly like a mid-60's Strat pickup (although the numbers on the grey lower flatwork are kindof hard to read.) All mags same length, wire looks like you would expect, but the Alnico rods are spaced closer together (I'll measure them when I get reunited with my calipers tomorrow.)

Really makes a nice neck pickup for one of my Strats with tight spacing at the bridge...

[madialex]

A friend of mine has a Music Master pickup, the one with two top pieces on the bobbin. I repaired it a few weeks ago, a break in the outer windings, easy fix. It read 5.97 after the repair and I only stripped it of about 45 wraps before I found the break. I did try it in a strat and sounds like a strat

[K. Helms]

This quite an old thread but for you fella's that are intersted I own a 1966 Fender Mustang that I will get around to at some point. I don't gig with it often at all as I'm a Strat/Tele type of guy but next time I have a break in winding and gigs I'll change the strings and pull off the pick guard and take a peek. I rewired her about 4 years ago and installed new Fender slide switches but all other parts are original including the pickups. This was before I was ever into winding so it will be intersting to take another look. I'll take some pics at that point and take ohmage readings on the pups. The guitar had been stripped of it's original paint and left natural with a polyurethane finish. I paid an old co-worker 70.00 bucks for it with the original case.....he was gonna sell it at a yard sale and I got to him first :-).

Keith

[fieldwrangler]

Keith -

If possible, do measure the mag spacing carefully (I suppose the easiest way would be E to E right-edge-to-right-edge.)

The pickup I described above is in fact turning out to be my absolute favorite of anything I have for the Strat neck application. It's really holding up in context.

On a related note, last night I played a room where I gig once or twice per month (House of Blues in Chicago) and was reminded of what a lucky thing it can be to be able to bring The Prototypes out to play in a consistent environment.

Bob Palmieri

[K. Helms]

Absolutely Bob, it is quite a nice to able to try your pups in a live environment and see how they perform under different conditions clean/dirty etc. and how they sound in the "mix". Getting ready to leave to rehearsal and I just checked the pups on the Mustang with my polarity tester while grabbing my other guitars. The Neck pup is Top South and the Bridge is Top North polarity.

Keith

[David Schwab]

If possible, do measure the mag spacing carefully (I suppose the easiest way would be E to E right-edge-to-right-edge.)

Somewhere or another here I posted a photo of a Mustang pickup sitting upside down on a Strat pickup cover. The magnets line up with the Strat cover's holes.

[fieldwrangler]

Yup, I recall that you confirmed this a while back. At this point I'm gonna assume that this was consistent across the years of production (why would they have a reason to change it?)

One of these days I'll pull the pickguard off of that Strat and give the pickup a closer look (and will measure the spacing accurately). Wonder if it's an import with unusually detailed underside cosmetics?

[Jim Shine]

Duo Sonics and Mustangs use the same pickup set. The only difference between a Duo-Sonic II and a Mustang is the bridge assembly and decal.

The Duo Sonics and Mustangs have 2 different pickups in the set. The bridge pickup is reverse wound/reverse polarity of the neck pickup. Thus it has different color leads to differentiate it. The Duo Sonic was the first standard guitar made at Fender with such technology.

These pickups varied the most. Partly because Fender was evolving and the the usual pickups were changing as machines and product line wide changes were made. These are also by far the highest produced pickups made by Fender during these years. Not only because the Musicmaster family (Musicmaster, Duo Sonic, Mustang, Bronco, Swinger/Arrow, Musicmaster Bass) were the highest production guitars made at Fender, but because these pickups also appeared in various steel guitars as well. The Champ and Studio steels as an example used the very same pickup found in Musicmaster, Musicmaster Bass, and Broncos as well as Duo Sonic and Mustang neck positions.

Up until the late 60's these pickups were wound with less wire than Strats. They typically read in the 5.6-5.8 range, but in the CBS years when they switch to the automated machine winding, the readings drop down to about the 5.5- 5.6 range. When the wire goes to plain enamel, they typically read 5.5K. The wire winding style and type changes in the same lineage as Strats, but because of the larger batches and greater use, the changes are seen slightly faster. You also see greater numbers of Musicmaster family guitars with the smaller population changes on Strats. Like lots of yellow ink dates and ink dated gray bobbin transitions.

The bobbins are the same dimension as Strats of the same era, but the magnets are flush, not staggered. Early examples, the poles are leveled from the top rather than the bottom, so the magnets stick out from the bottom a little. In the early 60's they changed and were installed traditionally and are flush on the bottom. In the mid-late 70's the poles are slightly shorter than a Strat of the same period. The Strat has poles flushed to the cover and the Musicmaster family pickups will sit slightly recessed. Musicmaster Bass pickups contain an extra top Forbon fiber piece stacked on top of the usual one to set the magnets farther away from the surface of the cover, I guess this helps lessen the brightness, and I never understood it completely, but Fender did it.

In 1966-7 Fender was backordered on these almost 20K units, so you see some funky stuff done to keep up. You see black bobbins used on occasion and substitutions of the black and white wire colors with green, orange, or blue.

[Alan0354]

I always like the Mustang. I so wish they still have new made in USA. I do have a thing in buying the MIA Fender. I actually like it better than Strat as I like this and Gibson SG with neck and bridge pup farther from neck and bridge resp. It just give me the kind of sound I like.

[David Schwab]

I have a nice '74 Mustang. I need a new pickguard for it, since the original has shrunk and curled up like a potato chip. But its a great little guitar. I had replaced my pickups with old Bill lawrence L-250s, and they have a nice snarl in that guitar.