Epi humbucker- Upgrade or replace?

[rjb]

Hi folks,

I'm a "pre-noobie" who's been lurking here a while, gleaning information to rebuild an early Peavey T-60 "toaster" pickup and getting overwhelmed by discussions of magnetic flux, eddy currents and so on.

But that's another story. I've also got a fairly recent Epiphone Dot with stock pickups, electronics, wiring, and patented "lifeless" tone which I'd like to resuscitate. Given limited financial resources, which of these choices would you advise for the wisest, most effective use of my cash?

1.) Cut slots in the pickup covers to reduce eddy currents; replace backplates with nickel-silver versions from Mojo Music @$7 ea.
2) Replace backplates @$7 and covers @$10 for NiAg with nickel plating from Mojo Music.
3) Replace pickups with Guitar Fetish "Vintage 59s" with nickel covers @$38 ea.
http://store.guitarfetish.com/v59niclalpah.html
4) None of the above (please explain).

Thanks,
rb

[David Schwab]

To make the original pickups better, you need to rewind them and probably replace the magnets too. And that might not do much. I'd just replace them unless you feel like experimenting.

I had an Epiphone Sheraton II come to me with similar complaints. I replaced the pickups, and also the bridge, tailpiece, and tuners. I wasn't making pickups at the time so we used Duncan Alnico IIs. That guitar sounded 100 times better. The wood working is not bad, but the parts suck.

[LtKojak]

4) None of the above (please explain).

I think Epi p'ups are the worst stock p'ups in any guitar of that price range.

Having said that, you can make'em "usable" if you care to do the following:

1) throw away the cover.
2) melt all EXCESS wax.
3) change the baseplate.
4) change the polepiece screws.
5) change the magnet.

Measure your p'ups. If the neck one reads over 8K, don't bother modding it, just get a good neck p'up.

I've had three of those that came out of a G-400 Custom. I've converted'em into three bridge p'ups, as they measured 8.35K, 8.6K and 13.9K. They turned up ok with AlNiCo 8 magnets, even though they were a bit on the dark side when used clean; they were alright with moderate to high gain.

Then you gotta change the harness, use good CTS 500K pots and .022 600v Orange Drop Caps.

This video shows what you're going to face doing this job, which is not the easiest for a newbie.

http://www.mojotone.com/iMojo-Videos...e-335-Assembly

HTH,

[David Schwab]

Then you gotta change the harness

That's a very good idea.

use good CTS 500K pots

Or any good brand of pots.

and .022 600v Orange Drop Caps.

Why? Any good cap will work. There is nothing special about those, and I have been told they absorb moisture!

I use metal film box caps.

[rjb]

Thanks for the info, David. Since I doubt a rewind with my Singer Featherweight winder (with klutzomatic finger tensioner/wireguide) would improve the situation, I guess I'll be shopping for p'ups. I'll look into the Duncans. I'm also considering a neck pup with some P-90 vibe (I like "vintage" country and rock- and, yes, I know a Dot isn't an L-5, Super 400, or Byrdland) with the option of less SC noise; thought the GFS Dream 180 might fit the bill for a modest sum (Dream 180 Vintage-Voiced Humbucker White Pearl). They market it as a Filtertron/PAF hybrid, but some reviewers say it sounds like a big, fat P-90.

I'm sure this isn't what you had in mind, but I have replaced the bridge and tailpiece with an Epiphone "Bigsby" (no longer available at MusicYo for $40) and a roller bridge. Other than weight at the headstock, I don't understand how new tuners would change the sound. But, having played banjos with friction peg tuners, any mechanical tuner seems "good enough" to me.

[rjb]

Thanks for the information, Lieutenant! I think the video will be quite helpful.

One question: What is the harm of EXCESS wax? Some people (including Lindy Fralin, I think - but can't swear to it without checking) advocate submerging covered pickups in melted wax "until no more bubbles come out".

[rjb]

Will do on the harness change.

I was gonna ask where to get "good" CTS pots. The last pair I bought, one was tight & scratchy and the othery was loose & wobbly. I generally buy Bournes pots from Mouser.

Ceramic discs can cause ugly non-linearities (I've seen the pics!), but the Dot stock caps are not ceramic discs. My question is why 600V Orange Drops? We're dealing with a signal on the order of 1V; if the circuit sees anywhere near 600V while I'm playing the guitar, I've got a lot more to worry about than bad tone!

I've used Orange Drops, Mallory 150s, RS gumdrops in a pinch - more based on geometry and convenience than technical considerations; always connect the "outer foil" lead to ground, when possible. I haven't used box caps since Dad used to bring them home from Bell Labs (guess I had a priveledged childhood!).

[RedHouse]

...Then you gotta change the harness...

Hey now, that's what our resident PAF'ologist said in a thread some time ago.
(t'was Possum)

...My question is why 600V Orange Drops?...

You don't need 600V caps, but OD's don't come any smaller IIRC.

[soundmasterg]

That's a very good idea.



Or any good brand of pots.



Why? Any good cap will work. There is nothing special about those, and I have been told they absorb moisture!

I use metal film box caps.

Whoever told you Orange Drops absorb moisture was smoking something. They are large because they are film/foil caps rather than metallized film, and they come in polypropylene and polyester versions. The only thing special about orange drops is that they are film/foil, which is somewhat uncommon these days and does affect the sound, but in a guitar, there isn't any point. I mean they will work fine and sound good, but any good quality cap will also work just fine.

Greg

[David Schwab]

I was gonna ask where to get "good" CTS pots. The last pair I bought, one was tight & scratchy and the othery was loose & wobbly. I generally buy Bournes pots from Mouser.

There you go. I have never bought a CTS pot. They are OK, but I don't see why people keep naming them as something to get.

Ceramic discs can cause ugly non-linearities (I've seen the pics!), but the Dot stock caps are not ceramic discs. My question is why 600V Orange Drops? We're dealing with a signal on the order of 1V; if the circuit sees anywhere near 600V while I'm playing the guitar, I've got a lot more to worry about than bad tone!

I've used Orange Drops, Mallory 150s, RS gumdrops in a pinch - more based on geometry and convenience than technical considerations; always connect the "outer shield" lead to ground, when possible. I haven't used box caps since Dad used to bring them home from Bell Labs (guess I had a priveledged childhood!).

None of that stuff matters for a guitar tone control, just the value of the cap.

[LtKojak]

Will do on the harness change.

I was gonna ask where to get "good" CTS pots. The last pair I bought, one was tight & scratchy and the othery was loose & wobbly. I generally buy Bournes pots from Mouser.

I use'em because of the 70/30 smooth taper. Never got any scratchy or faulty one in over ten years of guitar teching. I use the 600V ODs because they sound good and cost the same as the smaller ones. And both are very-well known brands that'll keep the value of your instrument. Bourns are good, but cost twice the CTS and are very difficult to get here in Italy. Both products I use are the best you can get for your money here, so it's my experience talking. If you come from an EE background I don't see the point in asking the things you already know.

[NPB_EST.1979]

I often thought about rewinding some gold covered Jay Turser humbuckers (korean) just to rewind and take notes on the wiring & construction. I've just finished my first couple single coils, and the directions on how to wire a humbucker is drastically different.

I read on updating the Epi humbucker to replace the screws, why? Why isn't rewinding and replacing the magnet enough?

[David Schwab]

I often thought about rewinding some gold covered Jay Turser humbuckers (korean) just to rewind and take notes on the wiring & construction. I've just finished my first couple single coils, and the directions on how to wire a humbucker is drastically different.

Get one of these to practice on:

STEWMAC.COM : Humbucker Kit

I read on updating the Epi humbucker to replace the screws, why? Why isn't rewinding and replacing the magnet enough?

Different steel alloys sound different.

[NPB_EST.1979]

Get one of these to practice on:

STEWMAC.COM : Humbucker Kit



Different steel alloys sound different.

Yup, I got two of them.

[David Schwab]

Yup, I got two of them.

You can make much better sounding pickups than the Epis with those kits.

[rjb]

If you come from an EE background I don't see the point in asking the things you already know.

My dad was a tech. Although I earned a BSEE during a previous life, I crossed over into "the arts" and haven't worked as an EE for many years. And even though I once took a class in electromagnetic fields- with all the vector calculus I've long forgotten- I have no experience in the practical design and building of guitar pickups.

Further, "mainstream" electronics and "guitar" electronics are different dialects. Guitar electronics seems part of a culture that comprises as much art and tradition (and superstition?) as science. Even something as simple as a standard guitar tone circuit is different from the "proper" LPF they teach in Geek101. And who ever tried to design a better-sounding power transformer?

So that's why I sometimes ask things that (I think) I already know.

BTW, why is excess wax a problem?

[rjb]

I just realized that mentioning cheap imported pickups in the Pickup Builders Forum may be a social blunder. Sorry for the faux pas.

...GFS Dream 180 might fit the bill for a modest sum (Dream 180 Vintage-Voiced Humbucker White Pearl)....

[David Schwab]

I just realized that mentioning cheap imported pickups in the Pickup Builders Forum may be a social blunder. Sorry for the faux pas.

That's not a problem at all. We talk about all kinds of pickups here.

[Dave Kerr]

BTW, why is excess wax a problem?

Some feel that the pickup sounds somewhat lifeless if it's potted solid through to the core, suggesting that a trace amount of microphonics derived from some portion of the coil that can move slightly affects the tone in a pleasing way.

[Ward]

Well here's how I fixed my Epi LP, it came with the usual hot humbuckers, I tossed them straight away but I couldn't get anything to sound decent with this guitar until I decided to put P90s into it. Here's a quick look at how it all went. Because the top is curved I decided that the good old hammer n chisel was the best way to open up the humbucker routs, worked out pretty good. I then cut bits of pine on the table saw to box in the P90s so to speak. Had to make a new pickguard which was a drama getting the P90 cutouts neat but got it in the end. Of course, all the wiring and pots were ditched as well as a new jack socket. I kept the crummy switch for the moment.
Long story short, the guitar is now a keeper with my P90s in it, lots of bite and twang, although I'm not a humbucker dude as such I would have been happy with hummers if any of them sounded any good in this thing which they just didn't but now I really like this one. A bit extreme but well worth the effort, I was seriously considering burning this thing until I got the P90 urge.

[David Schwab]

Well here's how I fixed my Epi LP

Nice paint job!

[rjb]

Nice paint job!

Yowza, love that powder blue sparkle! Now you just need a sharkskin tux to match.

[Chris Turner]

Some feel that the pickup sounds somewhat lifeless if it's potted solid through to the core, suggesting that a trace amount of microphonics derived from some portion of the coil that can move slightly affects the tone in a pleasing way.

Hmm... that would seem to imply that filling a pickup cover with epoxy would do the same thing.

[David Schwab]

Hmm... that would seem to imply that filling a pickup cover with epoxy would do the same thing.

I wax pot my coils for 10 minutes, and I know the wax goes all the way to the core, because I've cut wax impregnated coils off the bobbins. I hear no different between waxed and pre waxed. One thing I have learned (the hard way) is that when just using epoxy, it doesn't get all the way into the coil.

I think excess wax is just a symptom of a poorly made pickup, but not always the real cause of the pickup sounding like crap. I don't have any excess wax on my coils though.

[rjb]

Hmm... that would seem to imply that filling a pickup cover with epoxy would do the same thing.

I suspect the original motive for filling pickup covers with epoxy was to thwart reverse-engineering. It's a PITA to remove, and is the reason I started lurking here learning how to rebuild a pickup- when all I originally wanted to do was get access to both ends of both coils!

What constitutes "excess" wax? If flowing wax through to the core smothers the coil from "breathing", doesn't that imply that the problematic "excess" wax- which is well below the surface- cannot be removed?

Some folks fill the cover with potting material (whether it be wax, epoxy, or whatever) because they want to damp everything (coil, pole pieces, covers, etc.) from vibrating- preventing feedback & squeal. (I don't know enough to agree or disagree; I'm just parroting what I've read).

-rb

[rjb]

Thanks, everyone, for the advice and comments- and especially for the pics of that lovely modded Epi Les Paul. You all have helped a chronic waffler make a decision. When I get the time and money, I will:

* Buy replacements (which I have picked out) and not waste time trying to "fix" the stock pups.
* Replace the wire, pots, caps, selector switch, and jack.
* Use a slightly modified version of the wiring scheme which can be found by Googling "Deaf Eddie's ES-333" (20 useful combinations with 4 DPDT pots).
* Possibly, build a Varitone in a box (found in other threads on this forum) for the fun of it.

Thanks again,
-rb

[David Schwab]

Possibly, build a Varitone in a box (found in other threads on this forum) for the fun of it.

I had an '81 LP Standard and rewired it for a master tone and a varitone. That was a very useful mod.

[rjb]

I had an '81 LP Standard and rewired it for a master tone and a varitone. That was a very useful mod.

I know; that's the thread(s) to which I was referring.
But if I tried to install every possible useful mod, I'd need to build an extension on the guitar!

If and when I build an "outboard" Varitone, I might experiment with an active state-variable filter (replacing the rotary switch with a ganged pot)... but that's another project down the road that I don't even want to discuss right now.

Thanks again,
-rb

[David Schwab]

But if I tried to install every possible useful mod, I'd need to build an extension on the guitar!

I once had about 6 switches and 5 knobs along with three pickups on a Rick bass. I had every combinations of series/parallel and phase, etc. Most of the tones were not all that useable. I'd imagine on guitar you would have more useable tones, since some were too thin on bass.
'
I'm currently wiring up a FirstAct Garagemaster guitar like a Gibson L-6S with the six position pickup selector, and then I'm going to add series/parallel for each pickup and a varitone. That should get all the tones I could ever use.

[RedHouse]

...I once had about 6 switches and 5 knobs along with three pickups on a Rick bass. I had every combinations of series/parallel and phase, etc. Most of the tones were not all that useable...

I too heavily explored that whole scenario since the 70's when we were all doing it. I can say (as you said David) "I had every combination of series/parallel and phase, etc" and although I did not find them "less" usable, I found them a poor substitute for actually using another guitar to get another tone. Everything was always a compromise when using the same guitar with all that switching, it was back then that I realised the pickup didn't "make" the tone, the guitar did, the pickup only helped/hindered what was there to be had, and an Ash strat isn't found in a Mahogany SG much to my shagrin when I was doing say Day Of The Eagle on my SG/Marshall setup.

Back in the 70's I had one (1) main guitar and a backup which didn't always go with me to gig's, I started out using the DiMarzio Dual-Sound after tossing those epoxy filled Gibson (Lawrence designed) pickups, and then extrapolated that concept onto my other pickup coils, and then to the pickups as whole units.

You can see in this picture two small knobs and two mini toggle switches, the mini toggle on the pickguard was the series/parallel for the neck pickup, the mini-toggle by where the tone controlls used to be was the series/parallel for the bridge pickup, the small knob where the neck tone control was is actually a rotary switch that would place the two pickups on series or back to stock gibson wiring. You can just barely make out some pin-head marker-dots on the body next to that switch, one dot was series and two dots were parallel. The last small knob was like a coil pan-pot on the bridge pickup that could bring in some tone when the neck was on.

That was 1978 and with all those options I could use that one SG to emulate many different setups, specially recording with different amps. It wasn't so good at emulating other guitars live with only one amp though.

There's enough room inside the ctrl cavity, no need for an extension.

{Edit} the real laugh in that pic is apparently I was having trouble getting used to the compressed/distorted tone of the treble strings through my old Plexi, check out how I have the poles raised way up and the coils down on the treble side on that Dual-Sound bridge pickup.

[rjb]

I'm currently wiring up a FirstAct Garagemaster guitar like a Gibson L-6S with the six position pickup selector, and then I'm going to add series/parallel for each pickup and a varitone. That should get all the tones I could ever use.

I had to look up "Garagemaster"; I must've been asleep during that promotion. So, you don't want to leave the guitar stock? I guess I can see how it could get pretty cumbersome having to haul a VW Jetta "amplifier" on stage....

Actually, your setup seems pretty close to what I had sketched out for the Dot. I was going to install DP3T slide switches below each pup for Ser/Shunt/Par; replace the pickup selector with a 6 position rotary with the same functions as the L-6S, and replace the tone controls with a Varitone and a master tone pot.

Then I stumbled upon the L-6S threads, did some Googling, and found:
* Hey, you can do the same thing with a 3-pole rotary! (My straightforward design used 4 poles).
* In the parallel out-of-phase position, BL inserted a cap in-line with the neck pup to beef up the signal by blocking some lows, thereby eliminating some low-frequency cancellations.
* Some speculated that part of the reason the L-6S never really caught on was that the 6-position selector was difficult to use during live performance.

Then I (very briefly) considered nixing the parallel out-of phase position, and using a 5-position super switch with a Tele control plate. (That would've been lovely...)

Then I found "Deaf Eddie's Gibson ES-333" design- which seems like a pretty sane compromise that uses the stock selector switch and 4 push-pull pots, and requires no new holes in the guitar:
Gibson ES-333
http://www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/es-333.jpg

Here's what you get:
Neck Position: Neck pup (coils series or shunt or parallel)
Middle Position: Various parallel in-phase combinations
Bridge Position: Bridge pup (coils series or shunt or parallel), various series out-of-phase combinations

Here's what you don't get, and the rationale:
* Parallel out-of phase combinations: Weak sound; series out-of-phase gets the "quack" with less signal loss.
* Parallel in-phase combination of HB + coil shunt: You do get HB + parallel coil combo; parallel is stronger signal than coil shunt and is similar in sound (especially when blended with a HB).
* You can't shunt each of the 4 coils at will (as in some "Jimmy Page" configurations); the coils shunted are chosen to form a humbucking pair.

One could do the Deaf Eddie thing and still have room to install a Varitone in the normal ES-355 position. Then the only thing "missing" would be selectable caps on the tone controls (but, using 1M linear pots, you could still do the "cap on each end" trick)....

Sheesh, to think I only wanted advice on whether to salvage or trash a pair of pickups....

Later,
-rb

The scope of a project will expand to fill the alloted deadline and budget.

- One of Murphy's Law's many corollaries

[fieldwrangler]

I know; that's the thread(s) to which I was referring.
But if I tried to install every possible useful mod, I'd need to build an extension on the guitar!

If and when I build an "outboard" Varitone, I might experiment with an active state-variable filter (replacing the rotary switch with a ganged pot)... but that's another project down the road that I don't even want to discuss right now.

Thanks again,
-rb

Keep in mind that the effect of passive resonance (and damping) devices like the Varitone hanging directly off of the pickups' output can be pretty difficult to replicate with chips, jellybeans & batteries.

However, one advantage of an active outboard box is that folks can use their volume controls normally instead of needing to keep them cranked as is the case with passive outboard boxes.

Bob Palmieri

[rjb]

Keep in mind that the effect of passive resonance (and damping) devices like the Varitone hanging directly off of the pickups' output can be pretty difficult to replicate with chips, jellybeans & batteries.

I agree; if you want to build something that sounds just like a Varitone, build a Varitone. I also realize that active electronics can produce some ugly, unnatural sounds. But it also might be fun to have more control. For instance, does anyone really *want* the amount of cut to decrease with increasing frequency, or is it just something they learn to live with?

I also realize I'm just putzing around & not doing anything new that hasn't been tried at least 40 yrs ago....

-rb

[fieldwrangler]

I agree; if you want to build something that sounds just like a Varitone, build a Varitone. I also realize that active electronics can produce some ugly, unnatural sounds. But it also might be fun to have more control. For instance, does anyone really *want* the amount of cut to decrease with increasing frequency, or is it just something they learn to live with?

I also realize I'm just putzing around & not doing anything new that hasn't been tried at least 40 yrs ago....-rb

Rb -

I must say, however, that I recall really liking the Alembic Strat-type active array with what seemed like an appropriately heavy-handed peak sweeper in the preamp.

Bp

[David Schwab]

I had to look up "Garagemaster"; I must've been asleep during that promotion. So, you don't want to leave the guitar stock? I guess I can see how it could get pretty cumbersome having to haul a VW Jetta "amplifier" on stage....

You can buy them pretty cheap, and they are really nice little guitars, once you change the pickups. The pickups are the worst sounding POS I have ever heard! They have no high end at all. The built in preamp and mid cut/treble boost helps, but the guitar sounds really nice with good pickups.

Actually, your setup seems pretty close to what I had sketched out for the Dot. I was going to install DP3T slide switches below each pup for Ser/Shunt/Par; replace the pickup selector with a 6 position rotary with the same functions as the L-6S, and replace the tone controls with a Varitone and a master tone pot.

Then I stumbled upon the L-6S threads, did some Googling, and found:
* Hey, you can do the same thing with a 3-pole rotary! (My straightforward design used 4 poles).
* In the parallel out-of-phase position, BL inserted a cap in-line with the neck pup to beef up the signal by blocking some lows, thereby eliminating some low-frequency cancellations.
* Some speculated that part of the reason the L-6S never really caught on was that the 6-position selector was difficult to use during live performance.

I agree that some people missed having the toggle for switching to the lead pickup. I've seen the rotary replaced with a toggle. One of the guitarist I play with did the same thing on his three PRS guitars.

What I've done in the past, and plan on doing on this guitar, is to have a regular looking toggle switch, except I'm using a DPDT 3 way switch that you can get from DiMarzio or MEC. So my plan is to have the switch activate the bridge or neck pickups, and then when in the middle, you will get the rotary switch. Because there are redundant positions, I might wire the switch up a little differently.

I did something like this back in the 70's on a Fender Mustang. I had a two way switch that would select the 6-position switch, or the bridge pickup. So you had a preset of sorts.

Then I (very briefly) considered nixing the parallel out-of phase position, and using a 5-position super switch with a Tele control plate. (That would've been lovely...)

I'm contemplating using a 5-way super switch as well. I have both switches, and I'm waiting till I have time to play with the guitar to decide. I will have to make a new pick guard either way.

Then I found "Deaf Eddie's Gibson ES-333" design- which seems like a pretty sane compromise that uses the stock selector switch and 4 push-pull pots, and requires no new holes in the guitar:
Gibson ES-333
http://www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/es-333.jpg


Here's what you get:
Neck Position: Neck pup (coils series or shunt or parallel)
Middle Position: Various parallel in-phase combinations
Bridge Position: Bridge pup (coils series or shunt or parallel), various series out-of-phase combinations

So how is that not the Jimmy Page wiring?

Here's what you don't get, and the rationale:
* Parallel out-of phase combinations: Weak sound; series out-of-phase gets the "quack" with less signal loss.

Remember the three pickup Les Pauls and SGs? A girlfriend I had once, had a SG deluxe, and hated that bridge and middle out-of-phase tone. You couldn't swap the pickup wires, and they were epoxy encapsulated, so I swapped the neck and middle pickups so she got the bridge and middle in phase, and was much happier.

But out of phase tones can be cool, and you can turn down one pickup to vary the amount of cancelation.

Series out of phase is a cool tone too.

* Parallel in-phase combination of HB + coil shunt: You do get HB + parallel coil combo; parallel is stronger signal than coil shunt and is similar in sound (especially when blended with a HB).
* You can't shunt each of the 4 coils (as in some "Jimmy Page" configurations); the coils shunted are chosen to form a humbucking pair.

Oh I see... (previous question) I dislike humbuckers switch into single coil mode. They sound weak, and hum. I like parallel better.

One could do the Deaf Eddie thing and still have room to install a Varitone in the normal ES-355 position. Then the only thing "missing" would be selectable caps on the tone controls (but, with custom 1M linear push-pull pots, you could still do the "cap on each end" trick)....

Use a rotary switch for the tone control, or use a push pull that switches the inductor out of the Varitone circuit, and now you have 5 tone caps. Use the tone pot to vary the amount. The push pull can change the tone pots function.

Sheesh, to think I only wanted advice on whether to salvage or trash a pair of pickups....

That's how it always begins! My buddy gave me the Garagemaster, and I love playing it, but the tone sucked, so now I have a new project.