Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 130
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Eminence Flux Density Modulation

  1. #1
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    So. California
    Posts
    1,055

    Eminence Flux Density Modulation

    Eminence has some new speakers using what they call "Flux Density Modulation". Anyone here know anything about these or have heard them? Looks interesting.


    Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound

  2. #2
    Senior Member walkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    175
    Eminence Introduces Flux Density Modulation Technology - Premier Guitar

    " The method of lowering volume by altering a speakerís magnetic flux strength is not a fix all in either the new Eminence speakers or the Flux Tone speakers. When the magnetic flux of a speaker is lowered either by electrical or mechanical means the most fragile harmonics, overtones and high frequencies are trashed in direct ratio of the level of attenuation. The more attenuation the more loss in the high frequencies, overtones and harmonics, go too far and you got mud! The best way to use these new eminence mechanical flux attenuation and the Flux Tone variable voltage electromagnet flux attenuation speakers is to minimize their effects. Use them with smaller type amps that are still to loud in home or bedroom situations. Use them with bigger amps in clubs as long as you donít need to throw away to much volume, you still need a good sound. The best case scenario is to acquire three of four different tube amps designed for your varying power output needs and use these variable flux speakers attenuation features sparingly! "

  3. #3
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Not personally, but from what they say, plus the described effect on the sound, I see that they somehow reduce the useful magnetic flux that actually reaches the voice coil gap.
    The speaker goes from "normal flux-99dB efficiency" to "low flux-91dB" .
    My experience is that lower flux also rises Q and lowers attack, which they obliquely describe as "becoming mellow" It works as a sort of built-in pad.
    It's an interesting concept, although I do not find it *very* practical, because you need a combo or open-back cabinet to be able to reach the attenuation knob.
    Anyway, if somebody actually tests one, please post results.
    MP3s would be even better.

  4. #4
    Senior Member walkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    175
    It should be obvious that a less efficient speaker will not bringing out the 'fragile harmonics' and presence that a more efficient speaker will and would sound duller, unless of course you stand closer to the speaker , which the listener may well be doing, which is why a less efficient speaker may be needed in the first place.

    Are you saying, that at the same db level of sound, regardless of the distance to the speaker, that the sound made from a speaker of less flux, everything else within reason being the same, the speaker with less flux will of its own nature will produce a duller , or more mellow sound with less attack?
    J M Fahey likes this.

  5. #5
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Yes, exactly that.
    The audible volume will go down, which is expected, but not in a flat way, you will lose more highs and high mids than everything else.
    The sound becomes duller.
    You also lose damping at the resonance frequency (around 100 Hz) and bass becomes flubby and undefined.
    I know it's hard to define sound with words.
    To be more precise, the speaker loses acceleration, if that means something, it loses its "snap".
    See that the review states something similar.
    I think an external attenuator is much better and those "Power-something" circuits which lower supply voltage are the best.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    590
    Also, although 9 dB might sound a lot (basically, it's approximately dropping the perceived loudness in half), it is not that much attenuation in practice. Sound from cranking a moderately powerful amp is damn loud. After cutting volume in half it's still damn loud. So, if the problem was excessive loudness, either at bedroom or at stage, then dropping loudness only to about half isn't overly helpful. You can find demo videos of the FDM from youtube and the effect of full attenuation is actually barely noticeable. Basically, picking dynamics can make far greater differences loudness-wise.

    There's a similar product called "FluxTone", which is based on variable magnetic strenght of a field coil. It has a range of approximately 25 dB and that actually is starting to be useful. The problem of that product is that it requires an external power supply unit, though.

  7. #7
    Senior Member walkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    175
    I bought two fluxtone speakers , and i really like their sound. I chose them over an attenuator in part because, i'd read that most attenuators will require some sort of tonal compensation and that they interfere with the speaker to amplifier dynamics. At the time the eminence were not on the market. I find that use them a lot at quite a high level of attenuation , even with a 2-5watt amp and they sounds good to me. Sure i probably could have bought decent load box / attenuator / speaker simulator or isolation cab , but the idea of the variable flux from the field coil speaker , just made sense to me and seemed like less mucking about

  8. #8
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Hey, that's interesting !!
    Can you post some pictures?
    And some MP3's of course !!
    Can you link to some data/brochure/whatever?
    Thanks.

  9. #9
    Senior Member walkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    175
    http://www.fluxtone-speakers.com



    I haven't any suitable mp3's at the moment, however i can tell you they sound great.
    Last edited by walkman; 09-14-2010 at 02:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    932
    Looks like there are two methods to achieve the same outcome. Fluxtone is using field coil speakers and lowering the voltage to the electromagnet on the speaker. Eminence is mechanically adjusting the strength of a permanent magnet - maybe moving the magnet, maybe adding or removing an iron pole piece. The Fluxtone video sounds good to me. I couldn't hear any change in tone. I know Ted Weber was also working on the development of field coil speakers before he passed away. I like the concept of Fluxtone, but I don't like the high price...around $750.

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    "When the magnetic flux of a speaker is lowered either by electrical or mechanical means the most fragile harmonics, overtones and high frequencies are trashed in direct ratio of the level of attenuation".

    This is FluxTone speakers creator Steve Carey. I can see by your above statement that you have never experienced a FluxTone product, let alone tested one. And you do not believe your eyes and ears... our 6 demo videos clearly demonstrate that your above statement in incorrect. I don't appreciate being called a liar by someone who has no background or has done laboratory tests on your statement as we at FluxTone have. We have demonstrated the FluxTone product to thousands of players over the last five years, including well qualified editors of magazines. Not a single dissenting statement have come from these demonstrations!

    Long before we spent time, effort and money on launching this product, we spent many exhaustive hours testing all kinds of speakers with many different mics, analyzers, and professional guitar players. Exhaustive testing has PROVEN beyond a shadow of a doubt that the patent pending FluxTone technology is accurate. We have proved many times that the content of your statement is 180 degrees out of phase with reality.

    Do you seriously think Eminence Speaker LLC would be trying to circumvent our patent with their own version if FluxTone had no merit? Come on now!

    In conclusion, before you go run your mouth, run the test.

  12. #12
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Dear Mr Carey. Your innovation seems to be interesting.
    Would you please post a link to the patent?
    Besides that, any technical papers or similar literature describing it?
    Thanks a lot in advance and congratulations on taking your time in offering new ideas.

  13. #13
    Senior Member walkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    175
    Hi Steve,

    I have purchased two fluxtone speakers from you and i am very happy with them.

    I'm sorry if this post has caused any misunderstanding of fluxtone speakers.
    And there is no way that I intended to damage Fluxtones' reputation.

    In fact i was actually saying how much I liked them

    I bought two fluxtone speakers , and i really like their sound. I chose them over an attenuator in part because, i'd read that most attenuators will require some sort of tonal compensation and that they interfere with the speaker to amplifier dynamics. At the time the eminence were not on the market. I find that use them a lot at quite a high level of attenuation , even with a 2-5watt amp and they sounds good to me. Sure i probably could have bought decent load box / attenuator / speaker simulator or isolation cab , but the idea of the variable flux from the field coil speaker , just made sense to me and seemed like less mucking about
    Yes I accept that I have no formal technical basis for any of the opinions of my own that I expressed or referenced, rather that it seemed like common sense that regardless of what speaker you use that subtler aspects of the sound may well be less defined for the average listener a lower volume .....

    The quote you have highlighted is from premier guitar magazine online. Look at the comments section on the page I linked to. The quote is from Gary DiCenso on 01/18/2010. I should have been more specific with the quote reference. And i don't know what his technical background is.

    However this is an online discussion forum, and well its for the purpose of discussion.
    It doesn't mean that every comment that is made will be accurate, correct , meaningful or even to the point.

    I can see that you've taken this chance to plug your speakers, in response to the what you've taken as negative comments. ( is there no such thing as bad press ? )

    I was responding to J M Fahey posts
    My experience is that lower flux also rises Q and lowers attack, which they obliquely describe as "becoming mellow" It works as a sort of built-in pad.
    Please could you or anyone else who has a detailed knowledge of speaker flux clarify in a technical way the answer to my question.

    Are you saying, that at the same db level of sound, regardless of the distance to the speaker, that the sound made from a speaker of less flux, everything else within reason being the same, the speaker with less flux will of its own nature will produce a duller , or more mellow sound with less attack?
    I like fluxtone speakers, they sound great (....theirs your marketing plug )

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Because the patent has not been granted yet, and is pending, I can't give you a link. It does not exist yet. Any technical info is on the website of FluxTone Speakers reduce speaker volume without tone destruction on the "what makes it tick" page.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Dude my bad! I am not too hip with this forum stuff but I intend to get much better, bear with me! I drill holes and solder wires. Thanks for the business, and the plug. I get a bit ruffled when folks think this is a fly by night operation. I know the time and effort I have put into FluxTone so I am pretty sensitive to unsubstantiated claims. Oh, and I have talked to quite a few marketing people. They tell me I will have a hard time marketing something that actually works as claimed! ~sigh~

  16. #16
    Supporting Member loudthud's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Near Dallas Texas
    Posts
    3,254
    OK Mr.Coil, lets see what you got.

    FluxTone Speakers original 50 watt 12 inch VMT guitar speaker

    On the detail page for the Model 1 there are two RTA plots comparing the Model 1 to a vintage P12R. What power level were the plots taken at? The P12R looks slightly higher in a few bands, what is the vertical sensitivity of the plots? Was the Model 1 at the max volume setting?

    Does the voicecoil have any overhang? Can you put a sensitivity number (1W/1M) on the Model 1?

    What happends if you try to push the sensitivity higher by increasing the magnetic flux? Can you make a Champ as loud as a Deluxe?
    WARNING! Musical Instrument amplifiers contain lethal voltages and can retain them even when unplugged. Refer service to qualified personel.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    932
    Mr Coil:
    I don't hear any tone changes with your design as the flux changes. However, with the Eminence speaker there is a tone change. Would you care to speculate why this might be so from the physics? My thought is that flux is flux, and it shouldn't matter how you create the flux. So I'm perplexed.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Sheesh! isn't there some limit to the number of questions per customer?
    1. 5 watts

      Pink noise was used...so 1 or 2 dB variances may have occurred between photo shots...We shot many takes for an average plot.

      vertical sensitivity= 10dB/division

      volume level = 5 watts (it does not matter what level the volume is set at...as long as there is no distortion present in the pink noise, and the test does not exceed the power rating of the speakers) ...we put in 1, 5, 10 or 40 watts ...It did not matter whether you were adjusting the amp or the VMT control...the curve of the graph stays the same...it just moves up and or down on the screen...until you have to change ranges. 60dB top to bottom on any setting. So we just settled on 5 watts so it was not so loud in the lab.

      Voice coil over hang is different for each voice, and split in the gap evenly. As the voice coils are provided by each manufacturer of that original speaker, we match our pole thickness with the original. Typical pole thickness= .312 (remember FluxTone is not creating a "new voice" rather we are preserving the tones of existing well known voices over a 25db range.

      Model 1 sensitivity is usually about 101.5 1watt/1meter
      model 1-A is about 99

      There are limits to the BL that can be generated VIA field coils (that's the main reason why the world gave up on them)...FluxTone has combated that limitation by closing the VC. gap from an industry standard of approx. .060 down closer to .040. If you cut the gap in half the BL goes up by a factor of 4! Do you remember the Altec 515-b? (105 1w/1m) gap=.035 and a big ass alnico mag. Now you got me rambling...

      As far a Champ verses Deluxe....well a Champ is about 3.5 watts Clean...and a Deluxe is about 9 watts clean. Approximately 4 Db difference.

      I built a one off demo amp for "KBCO studio C" It has a complete stock "Fender Twin" Pre-amp. We removed the 100 watt 4 6l6's output section and replaced it with a foot-switchable (you choose it) output stage. You can have a (Champ 1-6V6 3.5 watt), or a (Deluxe NNf 2-6v6 9 watt), or a (Super 2-6l6 40 watt). All of them playing into a 15 inch FluxTone driver with a foot pedal control for the Field coil. That way you can easily play the Champ louder than the other two.... It really demo's just how much a (VES) Variable Efficiency Speaker with a 25dB range can make a difference, and how the different output topologies sound....here are some photos.

      I am exhausted...I hope this answers what you were asking about.

      Thanks
      Mr.Coil
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails multiamp-15-front-pedal.jpg   multiamp-pedal.jpg   top-pre-amp.jpg  

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    I can only guess about their version... I have not taken one apart yet...But I think they are moving the pole pieces away from the VC. and they are losing control of the VC.

  20. #20
    Noodle of Reality Steve Conner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Posts
    7,251
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.coil View Post
    Sheesh! isn't there some limit to the number of questions per customer?
    You're kidding, right? There is no limit to the number of dumb questions asked on the Internet. You will soon get tired of answering them.

    I built a one off demo amp for "KBCO studio C" It has a complete stock "Fender Twin" Pre-amp. We removed the 100 watt 4 6l6's output section and replaced it with a foot-switchable (you choose it) output stage.
    Looks like a great amp! Thanks for the pics.
    "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

  21. #21
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Dear walkman.
    Answering your questions on what I posted earlier:
    My experience is that lower flux also rises Q and lowers attack, which they obliquely describe as "becoming mellow" It works as a sort of built-in pad.
    Please could you or anyone else who has a detailed knowledge of speaker flux clarify in a technical way the answer to my question.
    Are you saying, that at the same db level of sound, regardless of the distance to the speaker, that the sound made from a speaker of less flux, everything else within reason being the same, the speaker with less flux will of its own nature will produce a duller , or more mellow sound with less attack?
    Yes, I can.
    I'll stick to Physics here, don't want to get into "religious" discussions involving Mojo or whatever..
    A speaker is a transducer. This means it receives some power in one form (in this case electrical power), and transforms it into some other form, in this case acoustic power.
    That transformation is not 100% efficient; *very* far from it; to have an idea on how poor it is, we are talking on the order of 1% here.
    Musical instrument speakers a little more, Hi Fi ones a little less.
    Usually we strive for "high" efficiency (now you know "high" is an overstatement here) and if we want a quieter sound, we just lower the power fed to the speaker, that's what volume controls are for.
    Problem is, tube guitar amps sound best for many types of Music when overdriven, meaning trying to put out *more* than their clean power rating.
    This means *maximum* Music (noise?) sound level output.
    Great onstage , *big*problem at home.
    As I said before, lowering the volume pot "is not an option".
    Acoustic power is "mechanical" power, in that we have to physically move some air back and forth reproducing the original musical signal.
    More power means a louder signal.
    Solutions:
    1) use a lower powered amp (my favorite)
    2) attenuate the power reaching the speaker
    3) use a lower efficiency speaker
    Let's analyze this 3rd option, which is the path Eminence and Mr Steve Carey/Fluxtone chose.
    We'll have to explain first how a (regular electromagnetic) speaker works:
    The speaker moves air, using a piston (the cone), which is driven by an electrical motor .
    In that way it's not different from, say, an electric golf cart, carrying the passenger's weight (the useful payload) *and* it's own weight (waste) , powered by an electric motor.
    In the speaker, say a 12" one, the useful load is around 2 or 3 grams of air (1/10 ounce), the waste load (cone, voice coil, adhesives, dustcap, etc.) is around 30 grams (one ounce), now you know why speakers are so inefficient.
    The electric motor used is not a rotative one, as the zillions we have around, but a linear one.
    It means that instead of rotating a coil it moves back and forth, moving the cone, but the principle is exactly the same.
    And how much movement (in fact how much "pushing force") do we get for a given power?
    We have a voice coil , inserted in a magnetic gap of a given strength (B), and a certain current (I) moving along that wire.
    The (pushing) force will thus be higher if we increase "B" (better, stronger magnet) and/or "I" (higher power means higher current).
    In this case, both Eminence and Fluxtone *lower* "B", the "magnetic intensity" if you wish, to achieve lower efficiency, thus less acoustic power (volume), because we "can't touch electric power" since the amplifier is overdriving and we want to keep i that way.
    The magnetic force explanation:

    Please notice that the three arrows are perpendiculat to each other:
    Magnetic flux across the gap, perpendicular to the wire ; current along the wire; force perpendicular to magnetism and current, in this case "up".
    Current running the opposite way will push "down".
    Audio signal which is AC current will move voice coil (many turns of wire glued together) up and down (this speaker points skyward) moving the cone.
    It's clear that acoustic level depends on amplifier power (which causes "I"), the length of wire in that gap , which we can call "L", and the magnetic flux "B".
    If the voice coil is fixed (L), we can't touch power (I) , the only factor we can modify to alter volume is "B".
    Eminence lowers B at the gap by a yet unknown "mechanical" system; Fluxtone by lowering current fed to the field coil (I guess).
    "BL factor" is a very important parameter and is written in all serious speaker manufacturer's data sheets, it's one of the Thiele-Small parameters.
    You'll find it on Eminence, Jensen, etc.sheets, but not on Celestion datasheets.

    In fact they post a very tortuous and nonsensical "explanation" on why "technical specs have no importance" Mojo at its worst.
    Some data as provided by a serious factory :

    Now to why I say that lower B means duller sound?
    I might answer that that's my experience (I have been making successful guitar speakers since around 1976 or so) or many other's but sticking to physics, now it's clear that by lowering "B" we are lowering "Force".
    Since Mass is constant , in fact we are lowering *Acceleration* :
    F=M*A so A=F/M
    Having less acceleration means you have less "attack", less "punch".
    *Maybe* the frequency response stays about the same, but it does not "sound" the same.
    That is described by Eminence as "mellower".
    Maybe Mr Carey/Fluxtone has invented some way to avoid this, I have no prejudice against that, I applaud innovation and technical advance.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    932
    Thanks JM for the speaker physics. Something else to consider. The movement of the voicecoil in the gap creates an opposing current in the VC. Changing the B, will also change the magnitude of the opposing current in the VC. So wouldn't this change the loading of the output transformer and the output tubes and the tone?

  23. #23
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    The movement of the voicecoil in the gap creates an opposing current in the VC. Changing the B, will also change the magnitude of the opposing current in the VC. So wouldn't this change the loading of the output transformer and the output tubes and the tone?
    Yes, it does, it's called counter electro motive force .
    It's the cause of two fenomenae:
    1) thanks to that CEMF the voice coil passes less current than would be suggested by its DC resistance, appearing as a higher impedance . That's why a 6 ohm DCR coil means 8 ohm impedance, and so on.
    A completely unmagnetized speaker's impedance equals the DCR.
    That's my quirk with (any make) attenuation by B reduction: the speaker has less impedance than nominal, and *does not move* , dissipating safely much less power.
    It has happened to me that an employee has fitted an unmagnetized speaker by error.
    Since I make them on premises, they are often built but kept unmagnetized until really needed, that error may and has happened sometimes.
    How do I find them out quickly?: the amp is tested, no sound comes out (or a *very* weak one), I think "shorted cable" or something like that, when I start smelling stinky overheated Epoxy or apple-like "perfume" (hot cyanoacrilate).
    As a rule of thumb, a 50W speaker becomes a 20/30W one when unmagnetized.
    Maybe Eminence or Fluxtone speakers still keep *some* movement to help cooling, my experience has been with fully unmagnetized ones (by error).
    2) that CEMF, opposing movement, is a direct cause of damping.
    As I said before, the speaker resonance becomes less damped, that's what I meant by "raising the "Q"; the speaker becomes boomier , looser and less defined.
    Not bad, it's part of a Vintage tone.
    Read speaker specs with new eyes, you'll see that the weaker magnet ones (Alnico or small ceramics) have Q around 1 (most guitar speakers, specially vintage ones) while high quality ones (JBL, EV, etc) have Q between 0.45 and 0.35
    As to your last question: the small change in impedance will not have effect on the tubes loading; the tone *will* change (in my experience) but because of the speaker response itself, not because of what the tubes "see".
    I repeat, Fluxtone may have found a way to keep sound constant with higher attenuation.
    Eminence seems to apply raw uncompensated "B" attenuation, and everybody (including themselves) hears a tone change, a "mellower" one.
    Everyday someone discovers or invents something.

  24. #24
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    11,464
    FWIW I think the idea is brilliant. I actually thought about something along these lines about five or six years ago but let it go for lack of a proper lab or testing gear for speakers. So huge kudos for realizing it.

    The way I see it attenuation systems will always have limits. Any argument against the FluxTone system that lower sound pressure levels detriment tone are moot because with ANY attenuation you MUST have lower sound pressure levels. Not speaking to JM's points above. The paramount goal of attenuation is to maintain as many parameters as possible. Until now the best attenuators were ACTIVE load speaker substitution and "power scaling". With the active load speaker substitution it's impossible to simulate the load of every speaker in every amp, so the tone and feel of the attenuated amp is different. With power scaling there are significant changes to the actual electronic operating conditions within the amp itself, so the tone is different. The FluxTone system has moved attenuation still one step further out in the chain and therefore eliminated those drawbacks and as far as I can consider about as far out in the chain as one can go. At some point the difference between the unattenuated signal and the attenuated signal becomes so small that you can't hear it and need test equipement to detect it. After that any contrary arguments become pedantic. I think this may be where FluxTone is and I'm excited to try it out. The only significant differences in tone with the FluxTone system would be that there is a minor change in actual speaker tone just because it's a slightly different speaker and there is less kickback voltage effecting the damping relationship between the OT and speaker. These are not exclusive to the FluxTone system. All attenuation systems suffer the lower kickback voltage and active load systems use a generic speaker model.

    Without going into detail my attenuator (the one I made) uses an active load that is in parallel with a resistive panning control between the speaker and the load. My active load is designed to simulate a 4x12 cabinet loaded with G12M30's and was developed by Randall Aiken. My attenuator sounds nearly transpearent without any EQ adjustment switches until you get to about 16dB attenuation. The Fluxtone system takes it further and in my estimation from my own experience with my "lesser" system any differences caused by the FluxTone system are probably so small as to go unnoticed.

    JM2C

    P.S. JM, would changing the wattage at which a speaker is driven also change the "B" parameter? If so then all attenuators suffer this.
    "I've heard magic defined as "a technology you don't understand". By that aphorism, the folks in this forum are practicing wizards, able to summon AND control the lightning demon, and make charms to allow others to use the demon in certain ways." R.G.

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  25. #25
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Hi chuck.
    No, the B value in the gap is fixed ; in these new attenuators it's "artificially" variable but by other means, it does not depend on audio input, it just can be set to one fixed value or another and left there at will..
    Otherwise speakers would "round" signal as when it meets "clipping" diodes, and that does not happen.
    In the applied Force equation, where you have B*L*I, any change in one of the factors changes the result.
    If you halve B, you halve effective force , proportionately lowering sound volume, just like that..

  26. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Dear JM,

    Can you, or anyone, look at the schematic of a Vox AC-30 and hear that distinctive sound? Of course not. There is: What speaker it has, humidity in the air, age of the speakers, room acoustics, what pick up is pushing it, what nut case has the knobs set where....etc.

    Your statements remind me of a child psychologist who has never raised any kids of their own. You sound like you have read a few books...but...books can be misleading and very very dry.

    Actually test a FluxTone product...then prepare to rewrite your above statement, as you will be pleasantly surprised.

    The back EMF you speak of is so much less of a factor than the actual product it can only be measured...not heard (more than -20db)... You are talking about minutia. That's like saying you can hear the drummers clothing ruffle over the sound of his drumming!

    For instance if you have two identical speakers in front of you, with identical signals...but one is only 6 db down from the other....You will not be able to hear the lower speaker...try it.

    We burned down every single on of our drivers and re-rated them accordingly. For instance the Vintage-30 is rated at 60 watts by Celestion...FluxTone rates them at 50 watts when used in a FluxTone setting.....so on and so forth.

    Guitar speakers are not woofers, they cool more from radiation than pumping air ...lowest freq = 88Hz. Low E.

    Some of the best sounding guitar amps have no damping at all...Tweed Deluxe, Ac-30...etc.

    Thanks for your interest.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    27,077
    Wasn't it Matchless, or someone else, used to take new speakers and before installing them, beat on the magnets with mallets to weaken them. A more vintage tone or something.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  28. #28
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    8,682
    Dear Steve/Fluxtone.
    You'd be surprised !.
    Anyway please do not turn this into a flame war, because I'm not trying to do that either.
    I may answer each and every one of the new questions you have posted, but would rather not drop gasoline into the fire.
    I'll only correct a slight misunderstanding you seem to have: *besides* reading many books, which I do not find dry but fascinating, specially my late 40's Olson and my 1954 Beranek, I have *also* being building speakers professionally for the last 35 years or so, *including* one type with Field Coil, a 30" woofer for which I could not find a magnet big enough in that moment (mid 80's).
    I have sand cast frames, turned them out of sheet metal, have my own 40" lathe , wind my own coils, have my own three phase magnetizer, phosphatize/paint parts, etc.
    A very *practical* approach if I may say so.
    What scratches some the wrong way (it shouldn't) is that most in this beautiful industry were originally musicians which got into manufacturing, while I followed the exact same road but starting from the other end, I was an Engineer who loved Music. (specially Rock and Blues) and got into musical amplification manufacturing.
    Don't worry, we all meet in the middle.
    I wish you very good luck with your product; you doubtlessly deserve to collect your prize after all your efforts.
    I make speakers commercially and know what a PITA it is.
    As an extra note, I congratulate you on offering a new, USA made product, in this age of rice-fed low cost quasi-slave workers.

  29. #29
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    11,464
    Sign me up for that job. I'm profoundly good at using hammers on things they aren't suppose to be used on. My thumb, dents around nails in trim work, etc.

    Mr. coil, Don't take JM's post as criticism. One thing we often do here is break things down until there's nothing left. It's not a perfect world and we exploit that for entertainment purposes. In many places throughout his posts JM has offered praise for your innovation of previously unexplored ideas. He hasn't eluded that it's not as good as other attenuator systems. In fact I think he even says somewhere in there that it's likely better. He's just saying it's not perfect, and it's not, nothing is. It's very possible that any audible differences are so small that they don't matter for any reason other than this discussion.

    This is mild. Your competition is going to want to tear you down and you'll need to stay cool. Gotta grow a thicker skin bro.

    And welcome to the forum.
    "I've heard magic defined as "a technology you don't understand". By that aphorism, the folks in this forum are practicing wizards, able to summon AND control the lightning demon, and make charms to allow others to use the demon in certain ways." R.G.

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  30. #30
    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    3,045
    Hey Steve! Welcome to forum....
    And for those that don't know Fluxtone Speakers, it's another very hip, up and coming company from Colorado!
    Right down the street from me in Lafayette!

    FluxTone Speakers reduce speaker volume without tone destruction
    Bruce

    Mission Amps
    Denver, CO. 80022
    www.missionamps.com
    303-955-2412

  31. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Hey Bruce,
    Are you still needing those output devices for your SX-980?
    I have some...I could come over and test your Christmas fudge for quality...lol
    Steve

  32. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Ok already...I give...
    I have never had much respect for things like: my-space, face-book, linked-in, or any other kind of social network...I have not had the time or an understanding of them, I guess I'm a Plugger.

    Anyhow I came upon this site and thought I saw where someone was dissing my product without actually hearing it...If I would have done a little more reading I would have seen where he was actually quoting someone else (who I should have a talk with)...Then to my chagrin...he is a customer...Yikes! I over-reacted...my bad! I guess I need to tighten up my servos, eh?...Naw!

    Anyhow I firmly stand behind any, and all claims I have made about FluxTone products. I know I do not understand all the physics behind it, but I know It works because of the 100% agreement by those who try it.

    When ever we demo to an accomplished player, who has struggled with various "Gismos" in conjunction with amps that sound great but are just too loud, and have been left wanting, at the very moment when they hear how FluxTone actually delivers what they have been seeking for so long...They inevitable get this huge grin... We call it the "FluxTone Smile" . It is what keeps me going.

    Thanks for your input, I look forward to hearing more.

    Steve

  33. #33
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    27,077
    Steve, this place is like a local tavern or something. And you walked into it from somewhere else. You have to hang around a little to get an idea of who is talking and what is on their mind. This place is not just a place guys hang out, the people here are interested in amps and actually know a lot. If someone detects a chink in the armor, count on it getting pointed out. But that is nothing personal. And you might be amazed to find out that now and then you will learn something about your own product. I know I have had many educational moments here.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  34. #34
    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    3,045

    Sorry... off topic....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.coil View Post
    Hey Bruce,
    Are you still needing those output devices for your SX-980?
    I have some...I could come over and test your Christmas fudge for quality...lol
    Steve
    Ha ha... Laurie is still perfecting the fudge.
    Yes, the Pioneer is still sitting there in the same place under that little work bench...
    You're welcome to come by any time of course.
    I need to stop by and see Jason at the Erie Airport sometime soon, I should stop over at your place too.
    Bruce

    Mission Amps
    Denver, CO. 80022
    www.missionamps.com
    303-955-2412

  35. #35
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    61
    Thanks

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Help with Depth Mod Knob Ibanez DML (20) Modulation delay
    By Elvisofnazareth in forum Guitar Effects
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-05-2010, 06:10 AM
  2. Ibanez Modulation Delay (DML-20) noise
    By evets in forum Music Electronics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-07-2008, 09:00 PM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-22-2007, 09:14 PM
  4. high flux LED in series with ck to ground?
    By Dan T. in forum Theory & Design
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-03-2007, 11:28 AM
  5. Flux or trix for soldering old gibson shielded wire
    By David King in forum Pickup Makers
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-07-2006, 09:08 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •