Tele bridge base plates... why?

[Alex R]

aaaaah I see

[David Schwab]

It is possible Leo noticed certain benefits to using a steel elevator plate, who really knows, because they could have used brass plates just as easily, but again steel is more difficult to strip out the screw holes.

Brass is not magnetic. Clearly the plate affects the tone of the pickup because it's magnetic. So does the whole bridge assembly. He could have made that from brass also.

[Possum]

Sure it affects the tone but was it intentional, with a name like "elevator plate" it doesn't seem like it was designed to affect the tone. So did he use steel for stronger support? Brass would have been just as good for grounding. I'm trying to remember what the very first tele type pickups had, they were first used in lap steels, don't remember if they had a baseplate or not. OK, I found them, no baseplate and they were only 2 adjustment screws, or screwed into the wood. Even the Tele bass pickup had no baseplate and was 2 adjuster screws. I think the elevator plate was made of steel for strong support because of the 3 screw adjustments so the screws wouldn't strip out the fiber. If it was for grounding them all those would have had grounding plates on them. The only other uses of steel baseplates I've seen were in stuff like the Stratotone pickups where the alnico bar magnets were real short, you need a steel plate in those or the magnet doesn't hold its charge and is very weak without the plate.

[David Schwab]

Sure it affects the tone but was it intentional...

Well that's the question. He didn't use a steel plate under the neck pickup, but he did have a cover over that. So the whole bridge assembly, including the "ash tray" cover, might have been for shielding. Maybe he went with steel for magnetic shielding purposes? It would place steel over and under the pickup when the cover was on. Who knows. Brass is certainly easier to work with than steel, so I think he used steel on purpose.

As I postulated earlier, the Tele bridge assembly is very similar to the bridge/pickup assemblies on lap steels. The early electrics had a lot of metal around the knobs and pickup, etc., because they thought they needed the ground plane, so it was like an amp chassis. On his later guitars he dropped that whole concept.

[big_teee]

Here's a real cool vid by GE Smith, about his sig. tele.
It has the bridge pickup like the old lap steel.
Lots of tele info here.
The G.E. Smith Telecaster® - YouTube
I watch it every now and then just to watch him play.
T

[nickc35]

Great video Terry. I always liked G.E. Smith. Thanks for sharing.

[David Schwab]

Here's a real cool vid by GE Smith, about his sig. tele.
It has the bridge pickup like the old lap steel.
Lots of tele info here.
The G.E. Smith Telecaster® - YouTube
I watch it every now and then just to watch him play.
T

No, it has a Tele bridge pickup. It just happens to be screwed into the wood like an old lap steel.

I think those cut off bridges are ugly.

G.E.'s a great player. He needed to tune up a little better though.

[rjb]

Here's a real cool vid by GE Smith, about his sig. tele.
It has the bridge pickup like the old lap steel.

Can someone tell me what he used as a slide on that lap steel?
It wasn't a traditional "bullet" slide or Stevens bar.
Maybe the handle from a straight-edged razor?

[rjb]

G.E.'s a great player. He needed to tune up a little better though.

How can you be in tune with one of those 3-saddle bridges?

[David Schwab]

Can someone tell me what he used as a slide on that lap steel?
It wasn't a traditional "bullet" slide or a Stevens bar.
Maybe the handle from a straight-edged razor?

It's the slides that came with lap steels. I used to have a Harmony lap steel and it had a thin slide like that.

I did a quick Google search. You can see the flat ones here:

Acoustic Guitar Central: Questions and Answers about Guitars, Technique, Music, and Players

[rjb]

It's the slides that came with lap steels. I used to have a Harmony lap steel and it had a thin slide like that.

Thanks. I've seen every other kind in the photo (including the one in the top-right corner)- but not the thin slide.
Two more questions:
1) Is it made from sheet metal? It looks like the the edges are folded under.
2) Where to I get me one?

[David Schwab]

Thanks. I've seen every other kind in the photo (including the one in the top-right corner)- but not the thin slide.
Two more questions:
1) Is it made from sheet metal? It looks like the the edges are folded under.
2) Where to I get me one?

To me it looks very similar to the second from the right in the top row. That's how mine was.

Something like this

[Alex R]

that's a nice video, thanks for posting that.

[rjb]

To me it looks very similar to the second from the right in the top row. That's how mine was.

Yea, I know. But you haven't answered either of my questions.

[David Schwab]

Yea, I know. But you haven't answered either of my questions.

It's die cast, probably zinc. I don't know where to get one.

Those photos I just posted came from eBay. Wouldn't be too hard to make one from flat steel bar stock.

[big_teee]

It's the slides that came with lap steels. I used to have a Harmony lap steel and it had a thin slide like that.

I did a quick Google search. You can see the flat ones here:

Acoustic Guitar Central: Questions and Answers about Guitars, Technique, Music, and Players

I've never seen a wooden one like that.
I said a P/U like a lap steel pickup.
I meant a P/U attached like a lap steel.
I liked the pictures and him playing the old lap steel in the vid.
Anyway, It had a lot of info, and ideas to pick from.
T

[rjb]

Wouldn't be too hard to make one from flat steel bar stock.

I might try that.
But it still looks to me like the slide in the video, and in your first photo, has "folded under" edges.
The photo caption says it's a Nick Manoloff slide. Nick Manoloff authored guitar & mandolin lesson books published through (I'm guessing) 1920s-1950s.
So, it looks like the source would be... yard sales, flea markets, pawn shops, eBay....

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[rjb]

I've never seen a wooden one like that.

It's bakelite. (It says so in the link David provided.)
Acoustic Guitar Central: Questions and Answers about Guitars, Technique, Music, and Players

[Possum]

No, the GE Smith bridge pickup is not a Tele pickup, its a Champion steel guitar pickup, it has no baseplate and the lower flat work isn't Tele shape. It was made before Telecasters existed I think. The only photos I can find are from a Seymour Duncan repro:

Seymour Duncan Antiquity 1950 Fender Lap Steel Guitar Pickup, Vintage, Hand Aged | eBay

[big_teee]

No, the GE Smith bridge pickup is not a Tele pickup, its a Champion steel guitar pickup, it has no baseplate and the lower flat work isn't Tele shape. It was made before Telecasters existed I think. The only photos I can find are from a Seymour Duncan repro:

Seymour Duncan Antiquity 1950 Fender Lap Steel Guitar Pickup, Vintage, Hand Aged | eBay

** I found this.
It's a regular 3 Adjustment screw Tele P/U, see the picture.

[David Schwab]

Not sure about the Copper Base Plate either.
In the Vid, he said that he and his Buds were cutting off the tele Bridge

Steel baseplate. It's copper plated so it wont rust.

[Possum]

Man, ain't that typical of Fender, its supposed to be a Champion lap steel pickup in there so they cheap out and throw a regular Tele bridge, probably with a steel baseplate too. Thats not what GE used in his own guitar. Excuse me while I rush out and buy one, you pay extra for the different dot markers is what it boils down to, nice profit margin ;-)

[copperheadroads]

"Tele bridge base plates... why?"
It's like a Horse blanket .....It adds Warmth

[David Schwab]

Man, ain't that typical of Fender, its supposed to be a Champion lap steel pickup in there so they cheap out and throw a regular Tele bridge, probably with a steel baseplate too. Thats not what GE used in his own guitar. Excuse me while I rush out and buy one, you pay extra for the different dot markers is what it boils down to, nice profit margin ;-)

Are you sure about that? The guitar was inspired by the lap steel, such as the fingerboard inlays and having the pickup screwed into the body. If you watch the video GE says the lap steel bridge pickup is just like a Tele, so that's where he got the idea to cut his bridge plate off and screw the Tele pickup into the wood. He never said he used a lap steel pickup. He said him and his friends were doing that to their teles.

If you have a source where he says otherwise, please share it.


GE Smith Telecaster® by Fender Electric Guitars

Fender proudly collaborated with Smith on his signature Telecaster® guitar, which was inspired by old Fender lap steels and which features a large neck shape, custom inlays and body-mounted bridge pickup.

Position Inlays:

Lap Steel Inspired Position Inlays

Pickup Configuration:	S/S
Bridge Pickup:	American Vintage Tele® Single-Coil Pickup
Neck Pickup:	American Vintage Tele® Single-Coil Pickup

[Jim Shine]

Leo didn't seem overly concerned with shielding (never seen a shielded cable in a Fender prior to the 80s),

Sure he was. That was the idea behind the neck pickup cover.

The Stratocaster had a controls shield.

Musicmaster family had brass lined routes.

The Jazzmaster was over the top. Every nook and cranny but the actual tops of the pickups was shielded with brass and aluminum. They even stamped the route shields 3D so they would line the walls as well.

The problem was Leo Fender saw each model as the evolution of the "Fender Guitar". he would have discontinued each previous model if it were up to him. And because of that thinking, they rarely ever retrofit new ideas into old models. They just kept making them to similar spec.

FWIW, no truss rod Broadcasters are not the first Telecasters. The line actually began with the 2 pickup Esquire that had no truss rod and a pine body. Near the end of that run they switched to ash and soon changed the 2 pickup model to "Broadcaster" and 1 pickup became the Esquire. Truss rods happened very quickly after that.

[Possum]

Stratocaster shields only consisted of a small foil patch under the controls. It wasn't until '62 they used a full size shield and I don't think it lasted for very long. The cover on the neck was probably there to protect it, I've heard of players hitting uncovered ones and ripping the flatwork off from the string catching under the top of the flatwork. It just makes sense to ground the cover. So doesn't appear he was very concerned except for basic grounding, since none of the harnesses ever had shielded wire. My G&L Legacy strat doesn't have shielded wire.

Champion steel pickups aren't true Tele pickups, they never had baseplates, and were never shaped like Tele pickups. Not having seen one in person I don't know what the coil height or magnet sizes were, but probably the same as the early Teles were. Never saw an actual Tele on a lap steel.
Here's a photo of a real one:
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...a368c032/l.jpg
Tele pickups came from the lap steel pickups, I think the steel baseplate was added to avoid stripping out the flatwork because of the 3 way adjustments, the shape of the bottom just follows the 2 screws and on one side and the one screw on the other, just a logical shape for that mounting. The pickup in the GE Smith guitar is wrong, they did it so they could pull any Tele body off the racks and so they wouldn't have to make pickups with such a limited use, no profit in that.

[Possum]

Stratocaster shields only consisted of a small foil patch under the controls. It wasn't until '62 they used a full size shield and I don't think it lasted for very long. The cover on the neck was probably there to protect it, I've heard of players hitting uncovered ones and ripping the flatwork off from the string catching under the top of the flatwork. It just makes sense to ground the cover. So doesn't appear he was very concerned except for basic grounding, since none of the harnesses ever had shielded wire. My G&L Legacy strat doesn't have shielded wire.

Champion steel pickups aren't true Tele pickups, they never had baseplates, and were never shaped like Tele pickups. Not having seen one in person I don't know what the coil height or magnet sizes were, but probably the same as the early Teles were. Never saw an actual Tele on a lap steel.
Here's a photo of a real one:
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...a368c032/l.jpg
Tele pickups came from the lap steel pickups, I think the steel baseplate was added to avoid stripping out the flatwork because of the 3 way adjustments, the shape of the bottom just follows the 2 screws and on one side and the one screw on the other, just a logical shape for that mounting. The pickup in the GE Smith guitar is wrong, they did it so they could pull any Tele body off the racks and so they wouldn't have to make pickups with such a limited use, no profit in that.

[big_teee]

Stratocaster shields only consisted of a small foil patch under the controls. It wasn't until '62 they used a full size shield and I don't think it lasted for very long. The cover on the neck was probably there to protect it, I've heard of players hitting uncovered ones and ripping the flatwork off from the string catching under the top of the flatwork. It just makes sense to ground the cover. So doesn't appear he was very concerned except for basic grounding, since none of the harnesses ever had shielded wire. My G&L Legacy strat doesn't have shielded wire.

Champion steel pickups aren't true Tele pickups, they never had baseplates, and were never shaped like Tele pickups. Not having seen one in person I don't know what the coil height or magnet sizes were, but probably the same as the early Teles were. Never saw an actual Tele on a lap steel.
Here's a photo of a real one:
http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...a368c032/l.jpg
Tele pickups came from the lap steel pickups, I think the steel baseplate was added to avoid stripping out the flatwork because of the 3 way adjustments, the shape of the bottom just follows the 2 screws and on one side and the one screw on the other, just a logical shape for that mounting. The pickup in the GE Smith guitar is wrong, they did it so they could pull any Tele body off the racks and so they wouldn't have to make pickups with such a limited use, no profit in that.

I figure the Pickup in the GE Smith, probably has no base plate either.
If it does then you would need to drill it out to attach the pickup to the bottom of the guitar.
Without the baseplate, and wound to 7.6k like the lap steel, it should sound very similar.
Makes me want to experiment without the baseplate?
I wonder what the magnet length, and winding spacing is on the Lap Steel Pickup?
T

[Possum]

Here is a photo of the Champ pickup in its guitar, to me this pickup looks taller than a Tele pickup, might be an optical illusion, but if it is taller than thats a really big difference from a Tele. A tele pickup screwed into the pickup rout in a Tele would be too low below the strings.

[Jim Shine]

No "foil" on Pre-CBS Strats. There was an aluminum plate that covered just the controls area until 59, then they switched to a plate that covered the entire back of the guard. That lasted until the late 60's.

The Tele neck pickup could have been made exactly like the bridge pickup and been protected with string. The bridge cover was supposed to be in place all the time, it provided shielding for the bridge pickup and the cover on the neck protected AND shielded it.

The Strat was the one lapse. The very next year he did the Musicmasters with their plates (first guitars made in the very end of 1955) AND introduced humbucking to the standard guitar line on Duo-Sonics. Jazzmasters in 1958 with the full shielding. That is maintained and CBS cuts those corners when they arrive.

[jason lollar]

possum did you miss this before you replied saying none of this is correct - if it was for grounding why did they tape the magnets?

"leo did have some concern with shielding and thats why he used brass plates under P bass pickups and under strat pickgaurds and why he would have grounded a tele nck cover. The corresponding lap steel pickup- the champion doesnt have a steel baseplate- its is essentially a tele bridge pickup though which many have been stolen from the lap steels and converted over to a tele. I have said this before and others dont agree but the only year i have found much alnico 3 was 1954, it so happens the 54 stringmaster had metal pickup covers and copper plated steel baseplates- very unusual.
anyone can measure the inductance difference with a steel baseplate, it is measureable but wether its a dramatic difference enough to plainly hear everytime its used in different applications is a different story. its really hard to second guess why they did what they did"

The champion is essentially a tele bridge pickup with a different bottom plate and no steel reflector. I hve seen lots of them, I make them, Jim Shine has seen the soldered brass shielding wells- so have I . i think the secondary use for the steel plate is string grounding- leo would have killed two birds with one stone but all we can do is speculate. I have read all those books- occasionally I get good tolling ideas from old fender photos

[Possum]

They "could have" wrapped the tele neck with string but if you've ever done this, its not good protection for the top flatwork, especially with the small weaker coils many had, you still have a nice lip there for a string to rip the flatwork off. I do actually string wrap one of my unique Tele necks but the coil is full enough so that the string ends up being flush with the top flatwork. Its still a risky technique, but no one so far has torn it up. The cover was for protection, not grounding, in my opinion, same reason Gibson covered P13's, P90's and PAF's, and of course you always want to ground a cover. I've actually had Tele players demand to have their neck pickups covered because they've ripped the flatwork off in the past, so I'm sure Leo ran into that too.

Jason do you have a photo of a steel Champion baseplate? I've never heard or seen of this before but I'm not a lap steel guy either, and all the ones I've seen on Ebay going back ten years never had a plate. Grounding brass in the rout doesn't exactly qualify as a baseplate since its not physically mounted to the pickup that I know of. The later Champion pickups like '57 look like big strat pickups, there's one on Ebay now that no one bought, price was cheap too.

No, no one knows for sure why the plate was there but still "elevator plate" is a dead give away in my opinion, it just makes sense they would ground it. I've not read anything on how the the actual steel bridge plates were grounded, whether they used a solder tab that mounts over one of the pickup mounts or not, I'll have to look in my BlackGuard Tele book photos and see if there's anything in that....

[Possum]

OK, so where's the baseplate?????

[Possum]

Jason: do you know what the coil height on these are, what diameter magnets were used, what alnico, and what typical DCR they were? What gauge wire?
Turns out Keith Richards "tele" pickup is also an old Champ pickup...

[jason lollar]

I didnt say the champoin had a steel baseplate i said the 54 stringmaster did

"The champion is essentially a tele bridge pickup with a different bottom plate and no steel reflector."
I just had a 54 champion in last week 6.2K 2.93 h, they seem to have 2 variations- low to high 6K ish and a rare 10k ish that pops up once in a while. the 6 k is 42 and the 10 is 43
Once again the 54 pickups i get in seem to be alnico 3 magnets are .625- I dont know how consistant that is because I usually just rewind them or modify them to fit a steel baseplate for telecaster insallation so I dont measure the length of magnet on everyone that comes in but none of them are noticeably taller than a telecaster pickup- that was some sort of photo distortion. I never bothered to measure the diameter but it would follow whatever they used on a tele no doubt for that particular year.
I also didnt say the brass grounding various fenders used had anything to do with steel baseplates - its a different issue as you point out.