Super/Bassman JMayer/SRV mods?!!?

[JohnMayer]

Greetings. I am looking to see if there is a way to possibly mod my amps, or do minor "upgrades" in the circuit to get tones more reminiscent of SRV and the Two Rock amps played by John Mayer.

I play a 66 Super Reverb and a 65 Bassman Head. I'm going to bring it in to a local tech to do some soldering and "tidy" work. I was gonna see if anyone had suggestions he could do to these amps to get that John Mayer sound. Think the tonal qualities of the video with more headroom, clarity than the traditional super/bassman.

Looking to get info along the lines of circuitry mods, cap/resistor mods, et cetera.

Below is a link to a youtube video of Mayer:


John Mayer -- Two Rock Tone!!! CLICK ME

[Gee]

Yesterday evening I watched a TV program on UK TV called Abbey Road. This is a weekly program that showcases 3 artists playing in the famous Abbey Road studio in London. I have watched it a few times and it is always interesting to see the amps that are available for use in the studio.

Yesterday one of the artists was John Mayer. His playing, as always was inspiring and intoxicating. He can really play. His tone was the classic distinctive John Mayer tone heard on "Gravity" or "Slow Dancing in a Burning Room". I was watching to see if his Two Rock amp would come into view but never saw it. However, and this is what I getting to, after the second song, he calls out to one of the sound people "Turn up the Bluesbreaker a bit". So he was playing through a Bluesbreaker and he sounded just like he does through his Two Rock. It's all in the guys fingers.

[Richard]

Well I'd start with whatever speakers he uses or something similar. The speaker/cab combination is a huge part of the sound. I see his signature amp (only $8500... I'll take two!) is one hundred watts. In my experience the higher watt amps seem to have a much more massive sound, even at lower levels. An efficient speaker in a good cab seems to help the bass and that can be the first place you run out of headroom. Some mods to the tone stack may help as well.

[JohnMayer]

I think the "its all in the fingers" common phrase misses the question and point totally. As far as speakers that can be a hit or miss as well as expensive project. My bassman is played on an old fender 2x15 cab with a new baffle board sporting 4x10 weber speakers. The super has ceramic speakers. Mayer is using two 2x12 cabs for his 100 watt heads...

I'd rather start tinkering with the tone stack is it is the cheapest way to go. If there are any specific recommendations please let me know thanks!

[stevlech]

I'd start with the "normal channel mods" from Blueguitar.org. Mr. Mayer has a liking for amps with a "Dumbell" type of voicing.

BTW- he has an affinity for the Marshall Bluesbreaker PEDAL as well. He mentioned it on his blog a few months back.

[Leffje]

I wonder at the same time what type of strings/gauge etc?
I have on BFDR-65 sometimes i´m close to the Mayer sound.
But (big but) I have just bought an old ugly Traynor YGM-3 -It sounds like nothing else** It´s a cheap amp and sound a million I promise. Mayer sound sweet***

My guitar - EJ Stratocaster

[SyncTronX]

Originally Posted by JohnMayer

Greetings. I am looking to see if there is a way to possibly mod my amps, or do minor "upgrades" in the circuit to get tones more reminiscent of SRV and the Two Rock amps played by John Mayer.

I play a 66 Super Reverb and a 65 Bassman Head. I'm going to bring it in to a local tech to do some soldering and "tidy" work. I was gonna see if anyone had suggestions he could do to these amps to get that John Mayer sound. Think the tonal qualities of the video with more headroom, clarity than the traditional super/bassman.

I'd have your 66 Super Reverb, completely rebuilt and retubed.
Yeah, a lot of folks here will say oh you will lose its collector value, etc.

Just get it done, complete with new trem circuit, reverb upgrade,
power section, sockets, PI drive, Feedback, and preamp section
along with some upgrades too.

Figure about $500 - $700 plus tubes, transformers extra.

Find a tech with ears...

There will be plenty of folks who claim this and that are over priced,
etc, you WANT to find the tech with ears, who may play also.

Tubes are a whole 'nutha' country.

Sync

[Jelle]

John Mayer plays Dumble amps like the Steel String Singer and the Overdrive Special. He also plays amps from Two Rock that have used Dumble amps as a basis for their designs.

There are more ampbuilders that can create these sounds.

Where are you located? Maybe I can help.

Jelle
New York
Welagen Musical Sound

[Chuck H]

SRV's Super Reverb/s were fitted with a replacement baffle board of 3/4" marine plywood and JBL speakers (sorry I don't know the specifics on the speakers).

His tech would disconnect the trem circuit on some of his amps at the pot. This actually raises gain. Which to some uninformed players may seem like a decrease in headroom. But it's not. I don't know if the trem circuits were disconnected on the SR's or not.

SRV did prefere a clean sounding preamp and so used 5751 tubes in the first position. The 5751 has many of the characteristics of a 12ax7 but with an amplification factor of 70 instead of 100. The 5751 is not like a 12at7 in any way other than it's amplification factor so don't try to get good results with a 12at7.

SRV used 12's on his guitar slacked down a full step. This was a big part of his tone.

In the studio SRV was notorious for running many amps simultaneously to combine their attributes. These were mostly HIS Fenders (two 1x15 Vibroverbs and two Super Reverbs) and a 1959 Bassman that belonged to the studio. He also used an old Leslie cabinet for chorus effects. The In Step recordings were reportedly done straight into the Bassman. This was his driest and most bland tone IMO. Live, throughout his career in order, SRV used his Vibroverbs and SR's, then his SR's and a pair of Twin Reverbs (don't know of any mods), Then the TR's and a Marshall Town and Country (I think that's what it was called. It was a big 200 watt thing voiced for a big clean sound. not at all Marshall like), and then he added the Dumble Steel String Singer which appeared from then on with a melange of his other amps that seemed to change from show to show until his untimely demise.

I don't know about John Mayer's amps.

Chuck

[Jelle]

John Mayer owns SSS sn# 002.

[Gtr_tech]

Originally Posted by Chuck H

In the studio SRV was notorious for running many amps simultaneously to combine their attributes. These were mostly HIS Fenders (two 1x15 Vibroverbs and two Super Reverbs) and a 1959 Bassman that belonged to the studio. He also used an old Leslie cabinet for chorus effects. The In Step recordings were reportedly done straight into the Bassman. This was his driest and most bland tone IMO. Live, throughout his career in order, SRV used his Vibroverbs and SR's, then his SR's and a pair of Twin Reverbs (don't know of any mods), Then the TR's and a Marshall Town and Country (I think that's what it was called. It was a big 200 watt thing voiced for a big clean sound. not at all Marshall like), and then he added the Dumble Steel String Singer which appeared from then on with a melange of his other amps that seemed to change from show to show until his untimely demise.


Chuck

The Mar$hall is a "Club and Country" combo.
http://bristol.gumtree.com/posting_i...04.__big__.jpg

Not one of the more desirable models.

[Stratabuser]

Originally Posted by Chuck H

SRV's Super Reverb/s were fitted with a replacement baffle board of 3/4" marine plywood and JBL speakers (sorry I don't know the specifics on the speakers).

His tech would disconnect the trem circuit on some of his amps at the pot. This actually raises gain. Which to some uninformed players may seem like a decrease in headroom. But it's not. I don't know if the trem circuits were disconnected on the SR's or not.

SRV did prefere a clean sounding preamp and so used 5751 tubes in the first position. The 5751 has many of the characteristics of a 12ax7 but with an amplification factor of 70 instead of 100. The 5751 is not like a 12at7 in any way other than it's amplification factor so don't try to get good results with a 12at7.

SRV used 12's on his guitar slacked down a full step. This was a big part of his tone.

In the studio SRV was notorious for running many amps simultaneously to combine their attributes. These were mostly HIS Fenders (two 1x15 Vibroverbs and two Super Reverbs) and a 1959 Bassman that belonged to the studio. He also used an old Leslie cabinet for chorus effects. The In Step recordings were reportedly done straight into the Bassman. This was his driest and most bland tone IMO. Live, throughout his career in order, SRV used his Vibroverbs and SR's, then his SR's and a pair of Twin Reverbs (don't know of any mods), Then the TR's and a Marshall Town and Country (I think that's what it was called. It was a big 200 watt thing voiced for a big clean sound. not at all Marshall like), and then he added the Dumble Steel String Singer which appeared from then on with a melange of his other amps that seemed to change from show to show until his untimely demise.

I don't know about John Mayer's amps.

Chuck

Good information Chuck, I remember reading an interview in Guitar Player from the 1990s with his former amp tech - I'll try to find it - and he said he replaced the speakers in SRV's Super Reverbs with 4 EV speakers - probably EVM-10M - hence the need for the 3/4" plywood to carry the extra weight. The stock speakers were distorting too much and he knew the sound that SRV wanted so he spent a lot of time getting the Super Reverbs to sound right. He mentioned that SRV would insist on setting the tone controls at certain numbers (like treble @ 7) - so he would set the amp controls to the best settings, then loosen the knobs and turn them so that the best tone matched SRV's favorite numbers .
Ewan

[txstrat]

I agree, Chuck's done his homework on SRV stuff.

Originally Posted by Stratabuser

...so he would set the amp controls to the best settings, then loosen the knobs and turn them so that the best tone matched SRV's favorite numbers.
Ewan

I've read about the loosed knobs too but somehow I doubt it, since if it was true it would make one of the best guitar players ever look lilke he's got no idea of good tone. And I think SRV really DID proove he knew good tone.

[Chuck H]

I was going by memory when I wrote that post. So go easy if I stumbled on anything IIRC I got most of that info from the SRV biography and filled in some blanks at an SRV dedicated website which I can't remember. All this about 14 years ago. I've drank lot of beers since then.

Chuck

[Stratabuser]

Originally Posted by txstrat

I agree, Chuck's done his homework on SRV stuff.



I've read about the loosed knobs too but somehow I doubt it, since if it was true it would make one of the best guitar players ever look lilke he's got no idea of good tone. And I think SRV really DID proove he knew good tone.

No problem, SRV really understood what good tone was and what he wanted from his guitar/amp set up. But this was true.
In the March 1993 issue of Guitar Player, Cesar Diaz, his amp tech said:
"See Stevie had this superstition about numbers. He was used to his controls being set at a certain level, no matter what the amp was sounding like at that point. So, in order to avoid problems, I would back off the volume control by unscrewing the knob and turning it back a bit so it would appear to be at the same level as before"
Interviewer: He always used the same settings?
Diaz: "Yes the same Volume at 6, Treble at 5 1/2 bass at 4."

[MWJB]

This scenario isn't unusual, I see (& do the odd bit of work for) some very talented players, with great tone, who either set control & tone knobs by eye, rather than ear...

...or stick to certain numbers because they "always have"... or because they saw/heard someone else with those settings & it influenced them greatly early on - despite the fact that they personally don't sound anything like the source of the settings (though they might sound great themselves) & that 2 models of the same amp can sound quite different even when working properly.

It doesn't take anything away from their talent, but occasionally it can wrong foot them with an unusual amp/set up, that doesn't meet their preconceptions. E.g. their amp might get a new volume pot with a slightly faster/slower taper and they'll try and convince you that the amp is malfunctioning, when all they might need to do is adjust the pot...some folk I've met would appear to be keener to jump off a cliff than turn a pot up/down by half a mark.

I think it's largely part of the human condition to try and set/recognise visual patterns, for a sense of reassurance/security and it's not unusual for some really talented players to be quite insecure/superstitious. Put it down to artistic temperament.

Also, even for a lot of pro players, it is difficult for them to retain a certain TONE in the memory...pitch isn't a problem, but often I'll hear guys say, "Hey, this sounds just like (insert artist of choice)", but when you A/B to a reference it usually doesn't, though it might share some attributes with the quoted tone (even a single note can be quite complex, with regard to harmonics/envelope/level of drive etc). Not that that in itself bothers me, I try and take people's tone & assess it on IT's own merits, if it sounds good it IS good...irrespective of how much it does/doesn't sound like an artist that they may have been influenced by. It can be infuriating though, when someone has a great tone themselves, but they permanently bang on about this player or that player...seemingly unaware that they'll never sound like them in a million years. Oops! On reflection, I might have to include myself in the latter part of that one...& apologies for anyone else shifting uncomfortably around in their seats right now...YES, I MEAN YOU! :-).

For instance I have been at live recorded gigs & the sound that comes off the CD bears little relation to what came off the stage on the same night, once EQ'd in the studio.

On some rare occasions you'll come accross a player with an unholy tone, they'll say "yeah, I can get a great sound out of anything, I just use this old such & such guitar/amp...", next time you see them they have a new bit of kit & they sound totally different (tonally that is - phrasing & note choice, musicality might be as strong as ever) and they may never hit that initial sound ever again. Let's face it, we probably all have a favourite album/session by a player where they hit our perception of tonal nirvana...whether that session was the same for them may be a very different matter (you can often hear something in a session that causes you to change approach & never retread some old ground ever again). It can be just part of someone's musical journey/growth.

Personally, I find that numbers on dials can confuse the issue, sometime you should try just shutting your eyes & dialling in the controls, from your regular start point (I start with bass then work up). See where you end up... then see how/if it works in stage

Back to SRV - weren't a couple of Diaz's tweaks to the 65 RI Vibroverb to switch/pull the normal channel V1 tube (rebiasing V2) & using a 12AX7 in the PI? I don't doubt SRV did use a 5751, at least at some time, but I have heard guys get ball park with AX's in a BF circuit.

So, short story long, just because someone is talanted & has great tone, doesn't mean that they're not infallible in other ways, like the rest of us mortals.

[txstrat]

MWJB
I see what you mean and you are certainly right. But that's not what I meant.
I do believe in numbers when I set up my amp on a gig. But only to find a base from where I start to tinker with the knobs (not much, just a bit to match the location - and even that might be misleading, I agree).
It might also be different with live/studio setups.
About SRV I learned he used to fumble around a lot in the studio with all of his amps at the place, to find the right tone. OK that wouldn't make him immune to the numbers thing as it wouldn't many other players.
Anyway, maybe I don't wanna believe SRV did just that ().
Fact is, he must have agreed to the tone Cesar set his amps to.

[Stratabuser]

Diaz did not reveal a lot of details about what he did to SRVs amps. He said the crucial thing (I'm guessing he was referring to the Fender Vibroverbs and Super Reverbs) was to replace the original output transformers and carefully set the bias so each valve/tube got the correct voltages. He also said the 15" speakers in the Vibroverbs were crucial to getting the "Big" sound. He's quoted as saying that a loss of treble response in 15" speakers is a myth.
In the December 1997 Guitar Player an article mentions using JBLs in the Vibroverbs and EVs in the Super Reverbs but no details on the actual speakers.
In the "In Step" sessions there were also a couple of 200 W Marshalls - one going into a 4 x 15" cabinet and the other a 8 x 10". Diaz said that at one point they had 32 different amp signals going into the mixing desk. I'm guessing some of these signals were from mics set in different places in the amp rooms.
Going back to the original poster - MWJB has hit the nail on the head - you have an idea in your imagination of what you should sound like - it's like John Mayer but it's YOU - it comes from your mind and your fingertips. The key is to match what's in your head with what is coming out of the speakers. Before spending a lot of money, you should try plugging your Super Reverb into a lot of different speakers and cabinets and find out what sounds right to you. If possible, ask a tech to let you try out Fender amps he has modified to get an idea if you like the mods or not. One person might like 4 EVs, the next person might like 4 Celestions. Once you've decided what you like, then spend the money on your amp.

[SyncTronX]

Originally Posted by Stratabuser

He also said the 15" speakers in the Vibroverbs were crucial to getting the "Big" sound. He's quoted as saying that a loss of treble response in 15" speakers is a myth.
In the December 1997 Guitar Player an article mentions using JBLs in the Vibroverbs and EVs in the Super Reverbs but no details on the actual speakers.

EVs in the Supers...were those 10inch EVs? Holy Smokes, can you
imagine what they weight in at? Wondering if the EV is heavier or
lighter than the 10 inch JBLs?

Originally Posted by Stratabuser

In the "In Step" sessions there were also a couple of 200 W Marshalls - one going into a 4 x 15" cabinet and the other a 8 x 10". Diaz said that at one point they had 32 different amp signals going into the mixing desk. I'm guessing some of these signals were from mics set in different places in the amp rooms.
Going back to the original poster - MWJB has hit the nail on the head - you have an idea in your imagination of what you should sound like - it's like John Mayer but it's YOU - it comes from your mind and your fingertips. The key is to match what's in your head with what is coming out of the speakers. Before spending a lot of money, you should try plugging your Super Reverb into a lot of different speakers and cabinets and find out what sounds right to you. If possible, ask a tech to let you try out Fender amps he has modified to get an idea if you like the mods or not. One person might like 4 EVs, the next person might like 4 Celestions. Once you've decided what you like, then spend the money on your amp.

Not to take anything away from Stratabuser, but I can only think of
one tech where this is possible to play through many cabs, amps, etc.

I agree, that your key is correct, to match what is in your head with
what comes out the speaker.

This is a trail and error process some folks spend a life time going through
gear. Sometimes you feel a bit different and want a different tone...hence
different amps, pedals, etc.

Diaz, though was right, IT was not the speaker, filtering out the highs in the
amp, it was the sacred blue caps, the water absorbing carbon comp resistors, and the undersized, saturated at 3 output tranny. I'll have
to look around here and see what I can find as far as gear goes...

...I do live in SRV country. ; )

[Stratabuser]

EVM 10M weigh in at 18 lb. The re-issue '65 Super reverb with Jensen P-10R speakers weighs in at 65 lb. The Jensen P-10R weigh 3.15 lb.
With EVMs it would weight 65 + 4 x (18-3.15) lb = 124.4 lb, not accounting for the thicker plywood.