YEAH!!! Got the bastard!

[Bill Moore]

I think that casey73's point was that our help is not asked, but demanded.
Whether or not calling a spade a spade is racist I think depends on your point of view. I personally don't think we could spend enough in Haiti to get them to live on their own. They were a nation of free slaves, who still want the master to take care of them, and do nothing for themselves. The fact that most are not decendents of europeans really makes no difference, unless one wants to bring up the race card.

[cminor9]

I think that casey73's point was that our help is not asked, but demanded.
Whether or not calling a spade a spade is racist I think depends on your point of view. I personally don't think we could spend enough in Haiti to get them to live on their own. They were a nation of free slaves, who still want the master to take care of them, and do nothing for themselves. The fact that most are not decendents of europeans really makes no difference, unless one wants to bring up the race card.

Like I said, casey73 certainly made a valid point, one that you reiterated: people expect the US to play the world's public servant until it comes time to do some policing. Absolutely true, and there is no easy answer. Historically speaking, isolationism doesn't work so well, but you also cannot be expected to fight every fire. One of the high points of the Bush administration, from a humanitarian perspective, was that his administration brought attention to atrocities in Darfur.

Nobody is playing a race card, especially not some white guy from the midwest (hi, that's me). But saying that Haiti is a nation of slaves who still wants massa to come and save them... jeez, seriously? That's sort of case in point. Why don't you just say they *liked* slavery?

Haiti is a poor country. It's just like the poor here in the US. If you give people everything, then you de-incentivize work. On the other hand, it's inhuman to just say "FU, get your own food" while you are sitting on a mountain of food. We sent help to Japan, and we sent help to Haiti. I don't recall seeing that Haiti demanded help any more than Japan did. And this doesn't turn up much either: haiti demands us aid - Google Search

I think the kind of mentality that calls other nations "nation of free slaves" or "3d world ghettos" is the same who totally approves of meddling in the mideast, as the US has done for over a half a century. And look where that kind of mentality has gotten us. Which brings me back to my original point: much of the rest of the world hates the US, and you cannot say it's totally unjustified.

[Chuck H]

I think the kind of mentality that calls other nations "nation of free slaves" or "3d world ghettos" is the same who totally approves of meddling in the mideast, as the US has done for over a half a century. And look where that kind of mentality has gotten us. Which brings me back to my original point: much of the rest of the world hates the US, and you cannot say it's totally unjustified.

Your just being contrary without aim. Anyone reading this can see what Bill meant. He didn't say 'a nation of free niggers'. What I got was that it's a nation that doesn't want change no matter how arbitrary we (the US) see it. It's actually the opposite of wanting to medal in other nations culture and politics. Brass tacks are that some of the world hates the US because we have what they don't. Some of the world hates the US because they disagree with our culture. But most of the world hates the US because we're forever posturing ourselves to control regions, affect cutures and governments that will benefit the US to control. All under the umbrella of democracy and fighting the good fight. Big money controls the US government (as it does any government) and the government controls the military. Any time the US military goes abroad it's more than likely part of a long term investment strategy and has nothing to do with democracy (that much of the world doesn't want anyway). Other nations play the same game but don't have the means that the US has. Some fall in behind us and kiss our ass and others (often the most recent victim) declare unjust practices and swear vengance, understandably. But...

I can't imagine how terrorism against US civilians is suppose to change this behavior. I think put to a vote most civilians would disagree with the true motives behind our governments actions. But most civilians trust (or at least don't distrust) our government or just plain don't care. 'We've got it pretty good, why rock the boat? Besides, the kids need insurance, I have to do my taxes and my boss is up my ass again.' As a nation we're oblivious to the whole ugly truth. But it's not our populations ignorance we're hated for. It's the actions instigated by big money. Do you really think we couldn't have found and killed bin Laden anytime we wanted to? It's posturing. I hope you don't really think our actions abroad, the current state of the US economy, or any of it has to with anything other than long term investment strategy. Arguing cultural and political issues is just playing into the game as much as any other apathetic civilian.

[Bill Moore]

We "meddled" in the middle east to develop the oil reserves, which were later nationalized. (The ones who invested the money are now cast out). Maybe they would be better off with their previous industries, without us, (US), developing the oil fields. I guess there's a market for rugs, and opium, and I can't remember all the other things that the mideast produced before we "meddled" there, guess those folks would be better off without us.
As for the world hating us, it's pure envy! Why else would they all want to live here? Our ancestors made this country from nothing, with just a will to succeed. They stepped on a few toes in the process, but they made this the greatest country on earth. I only hope that our kids will be able to maintain it!

[Chuck H]

We "meddled" in the middle east to develop the oil reserves, which were later nationalized. (The ones who invested the money are now cast out). Maybe they would be better off with their previous industries, without us, (US), developing the oil fields. I guess there's a market for rugs, and opium, and I can't remember all the other things that the mideast produced before we "meddled" there, guess those folks would be better off without us.

Your still playing into the game. "long term investment strategy". We need the presence in the region. Besides, do you think the only ones pulling strings on the US government are Americans?

[cminor9]

Hm, I am not trying to be contrarian. I just think that rejoicing over the US getting revenge against someone is a bit...jingoistic. Killing bin laden didn't restore any lives lost on 9-11 and it didn't make the world a safer place. Not because there isnt good intelligence to be gained from raiding his compound; there clearly is. But it's not bin laden you have to worry about: it's the guys sitting somewhere, who knows, maybe in Jakarta or Dallas or Chicago or Dubai who are planning the next attack. That's the guy you have to worry about, and there isn't just one of them. Of course, what do I or any of us really know about that?

As for the rest of the world hating the us: I know there are many reasons why some people hate the US. But if you are going to be hated, wouldn't you rather be hated for being successful than for being a bully? It's well known that the US has meddled in the affairs of other sovereign nations. You cannot really deny that. Put yourself in the shoes of someone living in the Mideast: some foreign nation comes over and uses its considerable might to extract natural resources from your land. how would you feel? I think Americans of all people would find this extremely offensive. So knowing this is the case, don't you think it's a bit unwise to just outwardly celebrate bin laden being killed? I'll never forget how I felt on 9-11 seeing all this stuff unfold. I felt sick about it for weeks, to have someone be so callous to kill all of those innocent people... Sure he was a bad guy to us here in the US, but to some people he was just standing up for the little guy.

That said, I am a beneficiary of the US's foreign policy. I drive a car, have electricity, and am typing this on an iPad made in china by some dude who is probably working in horrible conditions. I am glad I was born in the US and not in southeast Asia or sub Saharan Africa. I wish everyone on earth had what I have, but they don't and if I'm being honest, no way would I give up my lifestyle. This whole thing is sort of like studying American history. You have to be appalled by some of the things that the US has done, but were it not for stealing the land from the American indians, or enslaving africans, or using the poor Irish immigrants as cannon fodder during the civil war, we certainly wouldn't be living the lives we are living now. As Americans, we just have to accept our history.

I don't think pointing these thing out is being contrarian, it's just accepting the truth and seeing things from all sides. But I do not come to this site to argue politics, so I will stop now.

Let me leave you with this one thing. I enjoyed reading this today, maybe you will too: Non-American Redditors, what are some things you LIKE about Americans? : AskReddit

[kg]

Let me leave you with this one thing. I enjoyed reading this today, maybe you will too: Non-American Redditors, what are some things you LIKE about Americans? : AskReddit

thanks for this link... good stuff

[Steve Conner]

But if you are going to be hated, wouldn't you rather be hated for being successful than for being a bully?

A true leftie doesn't even understand the difference.

Non-American Redditors, what are some things you LIKE about Americans?

This reminds me of the Monty Python "What have the Romans ever done for us?" scene. I'd also propose the 12AX7 and the 6L6.

[kg]

This reminds me of the Monty Python "What have the Romans ever done for us?" scene. I'd also propose the 12AX7 and the 6L6.

YouTube - What have the Romans ever done for us

[jmaf]

We need the presence in the region.

Why you need the presence in the region would be a good question for debate.... From someone outside the USA, who knows America, I think the middle east only brings you trouble....it is something to think about.... Imagine America totally detached from the middle east and not giving a @#$%....I think that's where peace is, but my view may be politically naive..... I have no idea, none whatsoever, why every American President has to have a picture with the Arafats and whoever shaking hands....I have no idea. I grew up seeing that but I don't understand.

[Chuck H]

Why you need the presence in the region would be a good question for debate... Imagine America totally detached from the middle east and not giving a @#$%... I think that's where peace is, but my view may be politically naive...

It would be a good subject for debate. The reasons are many the way I see it. I can't say any of them are honorable. For example, who ever said that peace is the goal?

... Oh, us friendly Americans...

[jmaf]

It would be a good subject for debate. The reasons are many the way I see it. I can't say any of them are honorable. For example, who ever said that peace is the goal?

... Oh, us friendly Americans...

The friendly Americans only came into the middle east equation in the last century. Those folks have been fighting since forever.... Bin Laden brought the can of worms in to the US, that was the difference of 9/11. Before that, hell only broke loose in their homeland, not in the west. I think it's necessary to take a step back and evaluate whether staying there is right.... The end of Bin Laden is one hell of a chance to get the heck out of there. At least get out in a such a visible way...stay diplomatically, financially.... I think the "war on terror" is a wrong concept....

Well gotta go. I gotta a war on bills to fight.

[km6xz]

I sometimes chuckle at the comments by my fellow Americans who say the reason US policies are hated by so many around the world is due to envy? The comment can only come from someone who does not have a passport and could not find even the largest landmasses on a map. It is not rocket science, and OBL spelled it out very clearly. He was angry that the US had military bases in lands viewed as sacred and demanded the bases be removed from Saudi Arabia. Bush, to his credit, understood that point and very quickly complied after 9/11. But it does not explain to the citizens of the other 172 countries the US has military bases in, most often without the approval of the citizens of the countries. The US population would surely not like it if the Soviet Union or China had built bases and exerted influence on local as well as national public policy of the US.
Maybe people 5,000 miles from the scene are comfortable that they are not "meddling" but the people on site in most cases do very much care.

The comment about the US being so successful as to generate envy is also a strange one to keep hearing as someone who lived in other periods that had other values in the US plus lived in other countries. There are many ways to value "success" but by any metric, the US has been much more successful in the short period during and after WWII until the mid 70s than it is now. In terms of quality of life, it has become a death spiral. In terms of literacy, general education and adult competency, the results are truly embarrassing, with some states having over 50% high school drop out rates. Of the developed countries, none have such a large portion of the population functionally illiterate, while condemning other countries as backwards which have essentially 100% literacy.
A country that in a span of 25 years went from the highest manufacturing output, largest exporter of finished goods, largest middle class in rate of growth and total membership, largest producer and exporter of natural resources(including oil), foreign investment, highest average savings rate, to the largest debtor status, largest importer of finished good, consuming far more than able to produce, falling literacy and infant mortality rates...44th position!, largest and highest percentage of prison population, and fastest growing underclass. Really.....if you were not so biased in favor of the country, would you know these facts about a third country and still envy it? I see many countries that are viewed by most Americans as undeveloped or inferior which have more personal freedom, equality of opportunity, faster growing middle class, higher education standards, less stress, better access to education, health care, child care, public transportation, which have all been pretty much ignored by home in the US. I can be very optimistic when seeing how the direction of many countries is in a positive direction and just the opposite trend is occurring in the US. This is really not pleasant to witness. The normal response is to blame individual people, now the president is being blamed for all the problems but that is irrational, these trend lines started 30 years ago. The problem is the society has devolved into a polarized fearful, highly stressful, suspicious of all place. The country seems to be one where there are 300,000 individuals who all believe that their whims and desires trump those of their community.
By not caring about or learning history, the country races down blind tracks, oblivious to why, and for very good reason, protections and limits were set, for the good of all. Now it is the union members were are blamed for the demise of American productivity by negotiating for living wages. Adults, working full time producing goods are services worth a great deal more than their wages are called spoiled for seeing above poverty wages. In the peak of middle class upward mobility in the 50s and 60s, that notion of living wage would have been a no-brainer. Now it is considered selfish to not live in total poverty to the advantage of a billionaire owner. Why would Americans begrudge their neighbors to band together to seek a living wage? I do not understand it, nor would any people living through past periods when, as now, politically powerful and rich crushed the working classes, before a middle class ever developed in the US. They possibly assume that the natural order of things is a very large class in poverty and a tiny ruling elite, and want the US to return to that. A middle class is not natural, it needs to be nurtured and set as a society goal to occur. It has occurred very few times in history. The great gains in the status of the average person in the period just after the second world war is probably the image that both Americans and those who might have been envious at the time think of as the American Dream. That was a period where growth was willed into existence by some major commitments from the government and the governed. In a brief period, vast resources were directed to creating a middle class, through social re-engineering programs such as the GI Bill of Rights which was more responsible for the post war prosperity than anything except the very high tax rates on passive gains. That was the period where millions of people, the first in their family's history, got to go to college, or buy a home, or get a small business loan. When 10,000,000 families suddenly can buy a home or get a degree, millions of homes, each with furniture, yard tools, appliances, a family car or even two generated demand for consumer products unheard of before. US manufacturers could hardly keep up with demand, or hire enough workers, or subcontract out to enough small family owned businesses. It was all a perfect storm, the rush to the only place where there was room for millions of single family dwellings, the suburbs. Just by the fact that there was a highway system in place(another one of the commitments to the future that saw public money spent in large amounts on projects such as the national highway system, long before there was a demand for it). Union membership was at a all time high and it was a period of explosive growth of education, production(with high taxes on wealth, money was not horded in money instruments, it was invested in plants and facilities that made more money, instead of the current priority on wealth as the goal instead of building something, and all the elements from which a middle class springs.
Almost all those elements are gone now, there is no incentive to build or expand, the tax rules and benefits cater to people who gamble with money instead of invest it.
People really need to get out into the world, a lot of the problems that paralyze the US now into inaction have been solved or addressed in other regions. Being out and seeing how others have solved their major problems years ago, that still are open sores in the US would be reasonable and logical. But Americans seem to think good ideas only come from the US. If I was to raise another family, I would prefer many other countries due to their priority given to education, young families, the elderly, and children. The 50s and 60s were actually pretty good times to be a child in the US. Now those advantages are primarily found in other countries.

So back to the original point, contrary to popular myth in the US, the rest of the world does not envy what the US has become, but they certainly wish that the US would butt out of their own internal affairs and send those bases in the 173 countries back home where they belong.

Another interesting concept it the often repeated claim that the US won the Cold War and Reagan did it. Both counts are wrong. Both Russia and China have done very well in the last 20 years, with very high sustained growth, and improvements in quality of life, personal savings, middle class growth, reduction of poverty, and increasing personal freedoms and opportunities. In the US, the trend line is just the opposite. If both those countries wanted, within 24 hours could ruin the US without firing a shot. If China did not buy treasuries one auction, the system in the US would collapse. That does not sound like a victor to me.

OBL's death changes nothing, and nothing will change until the US butts out of the region. That is the real lesson that the Soviets could teach the US. Russia warned the US about a land war in Afghanistan, the Soviet experience mirrors what happened to the British, French and Imperial Russia during the 2 centuries that the "Great Game" was pursued in the 1700s and 1800s

[Bill Moore]

I wish all the Mexicans, Haitians, all of South, and Central America, and many of the European, and middle eastern countries could read the above post. Maybe they would realize how terrible we have it here, and would sneak in somewhere else. At the least, they could donate funds to help get us back on our feet.
I have a good friend who snuck in from England, worked at a local machine shop. Went back home after his father's death, and almost couldn't get back. Finally bought some ID, and snuck back in. Later we found out, after he married a girl from here, and he now has legal status. He likes it a lot better here than there!

[JoeM]

A country that in a span of 25 years went from the highest manufacturing output, largest exporter of finished goods, largest middle class in rate of growth and total membership, largest producer and exporter of natural resources(including oil), foreign investment, highest average savings rate, to the largest debtor status, largest importer of finished good, consuming far more than able to produce, falling literacy and infant mortality rates...44th position!, largest and highest percentage of prison population, and fastest growing underclass. Really.....if you were not so biased in favor of the country, would you know these facts about a third country and still envy it? I see many countries that are viewed by most Americans as undeveloped or inferior which have more personal freedom, equality of opportunity, faster growing middle class, higher education standards, less stress, better access to education, health care, child care, public transportation, which have all been pretty much ignored by home in the US. I can be very optimistic when seeing how the direction of many countries is in a positive direction and just the opposite trend is occurring in the US. This is really not pleasant to witness. The normal response is to blame individual people, now the president is being blamed for all the problems but that is irrational, these trend lines started 30 years ago.

Very true. We're seeing a decline in America, except maybe for the top 1%. I dont see how anyone can consider the U.S to be the greatest country on earth.

[kg]

Very true. We're seeing a decline in America, except maybe for the top 1%. I dont see how anyone can consider the U.S to be the greatest country on earth.

because it begs the question what is greatness? is it opportunity, or gdp, or test scores, or... ?

[guitarmike2107]

Being the greatest county requires you to have the attitude that you are the greatest country, I think this is what really annoys the rest of the world about the Americans. Americans walk and talk like they own the world, This thread is further evidence of this, Needless to say my generalisation is that many Americans still think loins walk the streets of African cities…i.e. they don’t know enough about the rest of the world. That’s a generalisation based on where I am from BTW

I am a South African Living in Scotland, and so have a natural arrogance, which rubs the Brits up the wrong way, point is every countries people have a generalised attitude towards who they are and how they act.

America is built upon the backs of immigrants who wanted to make a better life for themselves….. somewhere along the line the American Dream changed

[jmaf]

many Americans still think loins walk the streets of African cities…

Well I don't know about lyons but I just saw a feature on natgeo that showed chimpanzees ransom human babies in some african city.... I had to keep the volume down cuz everyone's asleep here but it clearly showed a chimp running away with a human baby and I only had 2 beers.

[Steve Conner]

I am a South African Living in Scotland, and so have a natural arrogance, which rubs the Brits up the wrong way

Is this as in, you sit in the bar cheering on your rugby team as they beat us yet again?

Or am I getting confused with New Zealand?

[J M Fahey]

Is this as in, you sit in the bar cheering on your rugby team as they beat us yet again?

Or am I getting confused with New Zealand?

Well, maybe you should add Los Pumas, the Argentine team, which beat Scotland 7 times in 12 matches (58.3%).
Do not feel bad, you still won 5.
Before fellow Americans make fun of you, they should remember that Argentina beat the US 9 times in 9 matches (100%)
Argentina national rugby union team - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[guitarmike2107]

Rule number one, Is don't sit in a Scottish pub cheering on the opposition team, doesn't matter who the other team is or what the sport is.
Actually watching Scotland beat England at Murrayfield has been some of my rugby highlights.

but generally I avoid those conflicting situations

[NorCalTuna]

This thread is veering for the gutter!

[J M Fahey]

I *much* prefer it turns into a Sports discussion, which leaves no deep scars and actually is fun, than anything else.

[jmaf]

This thread is veering for the gutter!

Politics? Veering for the gutter? Naaaaahhhhh....

[cminor9]

I *much* prefer it turns into a Sports discussion, which leaves no deep scars and actually is fun, than anything else.

Man 1 "the sports team from my area is clearly superior to the one form your area"
Man 2 "no, you are wrong. There is a man on the team from my area who has muscular quadriceps which allow him to kick an inflated projectile past a man guarding a large net. His muscular quadriceps allow me live vicariously as though they were part of my musculature. "
Man 1 "that man is not as effective at launching the inflated projectile as you seem to think. Why, he was only able to accomplish the feat you described three times last year!"
Man 2 "I would like to make my hand into a hard, bony ball and repeatedly strike your face. Perhaps we could walk through that door and I could demonstrate."
Man 1 "I think you will injure me, and this frightens me. I can feel my adrenaline building up, so I will summon my friends and together we will resist you. "
.
.
.
Pub brawl!!!

[jmaf]

Man 1 "the sports team from my area is clearly superior to the one form your area"
Man 2 "no, you are wrong. There is a man on the team from my area who has muscular quadriceps which allow him to kick an inflated projectile past a man guarding a large net. His muscular quadriceps allow me live vicariously as though they were part of my musculature. "
Man 1 "that man is not as effective at launching the inflated projectile as you seem to think. Why, he was only able to accomplish the feat you described three times last year!"
Man 2 "I would like to make my hand into a hard, bony ball and repeatedly strike your face. Perhaps we could walk through that door and I could demonstrate."
Man 1 "I think you will injure me, and this frightens me. I can feel my adrenaline building up, so I will summon my friends and together we will resist you. "
.
.
.
Pub brawl!!!

A good friend of mine always says sports are an excuse for men to talk about men.

[J M Fahey]

May be so ... at an actual Pub !!
Thanks God this is a *virtual* one, so fists, baseball bats and broken bottles do not hurt much.
That's what I was referring to

[Steve Conner]

Rule number one, Is don't sit in a Scottish pub cheering on the opposition team, doesn't matter who the other team is or what the sport is.
Actually watching Scotland beat England at Murrayfield has been some of my rugby highlights.

Well, I certainly wouldn't try it with football. (soccer for our international readers) But in Glasgow anyway, we have bars you can drink in without fear of getting stabbed.

I once turned up to play at an open mic night in a pub in Glasgow's West End, and the place was about half full of Kiwis celebrating the day's victory over Scotland. I introduced my first number as the "We've just been humped by the All Blacks Blues".

[cminor9]

May be so ... at an actual Pub !!
Thanks God this is a *virtual* one, so fists, baseball bats and broken bottles do not hurt much.
That's what I was referring to

*punch*

[jmaf]

Last major soccer classic in Rio de Janeiro : The Canadian Press: Brazil police say 4 people shot during fan fight before Flamengo, Vasco play in Rio Cup final

The numbers were later updated to 101 people arrested. We expect you all here in 2012.

[guitarmike2107]

But in Glasgow anyway, we have bars you can drink in without fear of getting stabbed.

I hope so, I am coming through on Friday to see the Spin Doctors at the Ferry, I shall keep all the sport chants quiet just in case

[jmaf]

We expect you all here in 2012.

Correction: 2014