Gretsch Super Axe Pickups

[fieldwrangler]

So, I have one of these things on the bench; opened the neck 'bucker and found both coils open. Tried re-heating the terminations, no go.

They're kindof kludgy things, with what looks like the expected amount of 42 ga wire loosely wound onto rectangular forms (unpotted.)
Picket fence slug poles.

I'm trying to find a way around rewinding the things. Anyone know if these coils were used in any other pickups that might be available for a reasonable price?

Otherwise, anyone know the actual turns/wire specs?

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

Can you post some photos Bob?

I've always liked those guitars.

[fieldwrangler]

I'll get some up ASAP.

[fieldwrangler]

[fieldwrangler]

Plus, my eternal idiocy is reflected in the fact that I'm not quite sure about how to read the most impressive Salversan Coil Estimator. By the way, for those keeping an archive of pickup data the numbers I entered into the fields here (dimensional & resistive) have been measured from the other coil in this pickup (which did eventually yield to my stubborn re-termination efforts.)

Does this imply that the displayed resistive reading will result from all of these various winding densities? Would this be a function of the interwinding resistance going down due to the tighter squeeze of the pack (even as the series resistance climbs with increasing wire length? Or does this reflect how much wire one can cram onto the bobbins?

On a related note, what are the bottom line "max winds" fields all about?

[fieldwrangler]

Can you post some photos Bob?

I've always liked those guitars.

Y'know, speaking as someone who doesn't even like onboard preamps (and has little use for compressors or phase shifters) I gotta say the the onboard compressor & phase shifter on this guitar really function well...

[David Schwab]

I think this is very clearly a pickup made by Maxon in Japan. They also made pickups for Univox and Ibanez.

I had a Sekova Les Paul copy with the exact same pickups, except for the bobbin color. They use the same brown glue as well.

The Greco Dry-Z humbuckers are made by Maxon and often sell for a lot of money. Greco guitars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was a thread about these here:

Please identify these pickups

[David Schwab]

Y'know, speaking as someone who doesn't even like onboard preamps (and has little use for compressors or phase shifters) I gotta say the the onboard compressor & phase shifter on this guitar really function well...

I love compression, and just picked myself up an MXR Phase 90 after not having one for years.

Probably the electronics are by Maxon as well. They made the original Tube Screamer for Ibanez. The guitar might have been built in the FujiGen factory where my Ibanez bass was built.

[Mark Hammer]

Hah! So that's what they are! I have some of those that were busted (badly torn coils) and given to me by someone in a repair shop. I had no idea, and just figured them to be cheap Japanese pickups from the 70's. Now I'm curious to wind them up again and listen.

[David Schwab]

I used to have a set, but have long lost them. I don't know how they are wound, but it is 42 AWG. I recently sold a Univox Hi-Flyer I had, and those are similar pickups. They read 7.4k. The magnets read 360G North at the screw coil.

I'd imagine these are wound similar to PAFs. You can always weigh the bad coil for an idea of how much wire is on it (compared to the rewound coil).

[big_teee]

I used to have a set, but have long lost them. I don't know how they are wound, but it is 42 AWG. I recently sold a Univox Hi-Flyer I had, and those are similar pickups. They read 7.4k. The magnets read 360G North at the screw coil.

I'd imagine these are wound similar to PAFs. You can always weigh the bad coil for an idea of how much wire is on it (compared to the rewound coil).

A Joke, but Do you perhaps think we could make more Bux if we sold them by the Ounce or Pound!
T

[salvarsan]

Plus, my eternal idiocy is reflected in the fact that I'm not quite sure about how to read the most impressive Salversan Coil Estimator.

If it was truly impressive, you wouldn't have these questions.

By the way, for those keeping an archive of pickup data the numbers I entered into the fields here (dimensional & resistive) have been measured from the other coil in this pickup (which did eventually yield to my stubborn re-termination efforts.)

Does this imply that the displayed resistive reading will result from all of these various winding densities?

This little application imperfectly estimates windings from resistance readings, bobbin (not coil) dimensions, and wire gauge.

If you only have the resistance and bobbin dimensions, you can usually get the wire size by trial-and-error comparisons of 42,43,and 44 AWG.

The Fill Factor tries to account for loose scatter winds vs. tight machine winds.

Would this be a function of the interwinding resistance going down due to the tighter squeeze of the pack (even as the series resistance climbs with increasing wire length? Or does this reflect how much wire one can cram onto the bobbins?

On a related note, what are the bottom line "max winds" fields all about?

Max winds tells you how much wire you can put on the bobbin without winding past the edge of the bobbin flats.

It tries to put a number to how you can put more wire on a bobbin with a tight wind than a loose wind.

The Coil Estimator has limited usefulness since magnet wire dimensional specs are +/- 5%, maybe worse.

That range propagates to roughly +/-250 winds on a 5000 winding pickup which means that any plausible windings estimate puts you in the ballpark but won't get you on base.

[fieldwrangler]

I love compression, and just picked myself up an MXR Phase 90 after not having one for years.

Probably the electronics are by Maxon as well. They made the original Tube Screamer for Ibanez. The guitar might have been built in the FujiGen factory where my Ibanez bass was built.

Wouldn't surprise me if these epoxy potted modules are indeed Maxonian. Incidentally, I have an old Korg overdrive that may also be of Maxonian origin, and it wins hands down in all the shootouts I've had with a lot of Tube Screamers (even though it appears to be a very, very similar circuit) every time. I might assign one of my students to transcribe this one, although for all I know the differences may be in the specific diodes or something...

As for the guitar, it's a fascinating aggregation of very good & very bad workmanship (and components, for that matter.) I'd certainly like to get the Authoritative Word on these beasts.

Bob Palmieri

[fieldwrangler]

I used to have a set, but have long lost them. I don't know how they are wound, but it is 42 AWG. I recently sold a Univox Hi-Flyer I had, and those are similar pickups. They read 7.4k. The magnets read 360G North at the screw coil.

I'd imagine these are wound similar to PAFs. You can always weigh the bad coil for an idea of how much wire is on it (compared to the rewound coil).

I think these versions are closer to 8.2K DCR. And, considering that the windings are busting the boundaries of the flimsy .030 nylon bobbins, I wouldn't be surprised if they were originally intended to have less turns.

Bob Palmieri

[fieldwrangler]

I think this is very clearly a pickup made by Maxon in Japan. They also made pickups for Univox and Ibanez.

I had a Sekova Les Paul copy with the exact same pickups, except for the bobbin color. They use the same brown glue as well.

The Greco Dry-Z humbuckers are made by Maxon and often sell for a lot of money. Greco guitars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was a thread about these here:

Please identify these pickups

David -

You're the greatest; thanks for this ID! Incidentally, the previous day I hadta tear into one of those Epiphone specimens with the wax filling up the covers, and there were certain clues that either these things came from a related source or someone Once Upon a Time "learned" a construction technique or two from the Maxons.

[fieldwrangler]

If it was truly impressive, you wouldn't have these questions.
This little application imperfectly estimates windings from resistance readings, bobbin (not coil) dimensions, and wire gauge.

If you only have the resistance and bobbin dimensions, you can usually get the wire size by trial-and-error comparisons of 42,43,and 44 AWG.

The Fill Factor tries to account for loose scatter winds vs. tight machine winds.

Max winds tells you how much wire you can put on the bobbin without winding past the edge of the bobbin flats.

It tries to put a number to how you can put more wire on a bobbin with a tight wind than a loose wind.

The Coil Estimator has limited usefulness since magnet wire dimensional specs are +/- 5%, maybe worse.

That range propagates to roughly +/-250 winds on a 5000 winding pickup which means that any plausible windings estimate puts you in the ballpark but won't get you on base.

Still one helluva great tool you've given us here!

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

David -

You're the greatest; thanks for this ID! Incidentally, the previous day I hadta tear into one of those Epiphone specimens with the wax filling up the covers, and there were certain clues that either these things came from a related source or someone Once Upon a Time "learned" a construction technique or two from the Maxons.

Glad to help!

When you said "rectangular forms" and "picket fence slug poles", that made me think of the Maxon pickups. When you posted the photos than I knew for sure.

Yeah, the Epis are probably related, but the Maxons sound pretty good, while the Epis don't.

[fieldwrangler]

The Conclusion:

Used up my last roll of Electrasola 42ga single poly from the late 70's - early 80's on this thing. Looked & measured the same as what was on there. Put the usual 5K turns on there; bobbin looked the same as the other one. Measured the same DCR too (4.1K). Wrapped it up with the same lousy tape, crammed everything back into the cover and gave the guitar a quick listen. Had a bad moment when I noticed that having the toggle in the Up position sounded a LOT more trebly than in the Down; felt bad 'till I figured out I had the thing in upside down.

Didn't listen critically but I'd say it's really a pretty good sounding pickup. A bit muddy for my taste but respectable, and as David said, much, much better than those Epi's.

By the way, I did a dumb thing and sliced off all the wire before ascertaining the winding direction; had to re-open the other one to be sure of what was up (& down.)
Don't let this happen to you.

Bob Palmieri

[fieldwrangler]

Actually, one last question:

What d'we like to use for glue to simulate that brown goop they used to use on things like this?

[fieldwrangler]

Okay, one more:

Believe it or not, I stocked up on so much wire in the 80's that I haven't had to buy any for about the last 30 years. Something tells me it's gonna cost a lot more than it did then.

What are the preferred sources for small quantities of non-respooled wire here in 2012?

[David Schwab]

I don't know what that glue is.

I get my wire from BAE Wire on eBay:

baewire | eBay

A 1.66lb roll goes for $34. So far all the wire I have gotten from them is from Elektrasola.

AWG 42 Copper Magnet Wire SPN 155 Red | eBay

[Possum]

The best way to approach this is to rewind them, but to do it accurately you need to do some hard work. First measure the diameter of the wire, this is very important, not all 42 is the same size, there is a large tolerance, if you don't have a micrometer, time to get one. Then put each coil on a winder faceplate that has a counter and unwind it completely from beginning to end, noting direction of wind, which lead was used a hot or ground. Number of turns is the only accurate way to reproduce the coil. I have a dedicated winder/counter head I use for this alone. Count how many turns each layer has. Best way to do this is count how many turns are in say four passes across the coil, then divide the count by four to get TPL. Rewind it exactly as it was, same TPL, same diameter wire etc. etc. This is the only way you'll restore it to what it was.

[David Schwab]

Didn't listen critically but I'd say it's really a pretty good sounding pickup. A bit muddy for my taste but respectable, and as David said, much, much better than those Epi's.

I'd try it again, but wind less wire on it this time.

[fieldwrangler]

The best way to approach this is to rewind them, but to do it accurately you need to do some hard work. First measure the diameter of the wire, this is very important, not all 42 is the same size, there is a large tolerance, if you don't have a micrometer, time to get one. Then put each coil on a winder faceplate that has a counter and unwind it completely from beginning to end, noting direction of wind, which lead was used a hot or ground. Number of turns is the only accurate way to reproduce the coil. I have a dedicated winder/counter head I use for this alone. Count how many turns each layer has. Best way to do this is count how many turns are in say four passes across the coil, then divide the count by four to get TPL. Rewind it exactly as it was, same TPL, same diameter wire etc. etc. This is the only way you'll restore it to what it was.

I really like tis idea of the "four passes across the coil."

I did a quick partial exploratory de-winding and measured the wire carefully with a mic.

By the time I was done I couldn't tell which coil I had rewound, so I called it a day.

Not as conscientious as what you've described here (and I'm sure actually put into practice in much of your own work) but good enough for this application, I say.

Frankly, I do really love a number of cheap pickups, but these aren't the absolute Best of Breed. And the idea of putting 4 hours or more of conscientious effort into pickups that were originally thrown together without a similar level of attention to detail is beyond my current level of spiritual advancement.

[fieldwrangler]

I'd try it again, but wind less wire on it this time.

It's done.

The coil matches its partner to a surprising degree in terms of DCR, ACR @ 120 & 1K and dimensions of the final pack.

The bridge pickup is also running around 8.2k DCR, so I guess that's the way these things are supposed to be.

[David Schwab]

The bridge pickup is also running around 8.2k DCR, so I guess that's the way these things are supposed to be.

Right, but "supposed to be" and the best voicing for that pickup are two different things. It's probably good for the bridge, but neck pickups can usually stand to be wound cleaner to get rid of the mud. Taking it down to about 7-7.5k would probably improve the tone of the neck pickup.

[fieldwrangler]

Right, but "supposed to be" and the best voicing for that pickup are two different things. It's probably good for the bridge, but neck pickups can usually stand to be wound cleaner to get rid of the mud. Taking it down to about 7-7.5k would probably improve the tone of the neck pickup.

Agree 100%.

My decisions were guided primarily by a goal to match the existing neck pickup coil.

Something tells me that Original Recipe may have not called for different #'s of winds on the two pickups. In fact, the coils forms have a long enough slot in the center to allow for considerable stretching of the E to E pole spacing and were basically Up to Capacity as far as wire was concerned; it wouldn't surprise me if this coil was used for a number of different applications.

[David Schwab]

Something tells me that Original Recipe may have not called for different #'s of winds on the two pickups.

Well that's a fairly new thing, since the introduction of things like the DiMarzio Super Distortion. Before that most guitars had one kind of pickup, the Telecaster notwithstanding.

[bill raymond]

You all may certainly be right about the maker of these pickups, but the information I've read from Gretsch sources have all attributed them to DiMarzio. Not to say that those sources are infallible, as misinformation, especially in this age of the internet, is spread widely and quickly and becomes "common knowledge".

BTW, the internal effects were designed for Chet by Ron Tipton, using RCA ICs. You can find an
article about them, including schematics, at Designing the Hot Strings Guitar for Chet Atkins .

[fieldwrangler]

You all may certainly be right about the maker of these pickups, but the information I've read from Gretsch sources have all attributed them to DiMarzio. Not to say that those sources are infallible, as misinformation, especially in this age of the internet, is spread widely and quickly and becomes "common knowledge".

And, since the ones I saw were most definitely not of DiMarzio origin, this is an interesting point.

BTW, the internal effects were designed for Chet by Ron Tipton, using RCA ICs. You can find an
article about them, including schematics, at Designing the Hot Strings Guitar for Chet Atkins .

Another Very Interesting point!!

[bill raymond]

Have done a little more research into this: Chet says in his book Me and My Guitars "We used humbucking DiMarzio pickups to get a more contemporary sound on the Super Axe." One of the members on the Gretschpages forum inquired of DiMarzio what pickups they supplied for the Super Axe and DiMarzio responded

"We supplied Gretsch with Super Distortions for several of their guitars in that period, but I am not certain they went in the 7680. It's possible they were, but it also appears Gretsch used other pickups in this model as well during its production history."

I would guess from this, then, that perhaps the Super Axe originally had DiMarzio Super Distortion pickups, but sometime in the production Gretsch changed over to these Maxon pickups, maybe as a cost-saving move?

[David Schwab]

I have never seen a photo of a Super Axe with DiMarzio pickups. If you Google "Gretsch Super Axe" just about every photo shows them with covered pickups with a single row of slot head pole screws. Super Distortions have two rows of hex screws and have never come with covers.

Also, here's a catalog page from 1978. It shows covered pickups with a single row of pole screws, like the Maxon pickups. It also just says "humbucking pickups". If they were using DiMarzios, they would advertise that fact, just like everyone else did at the time.

I doubt Chet would have liked the SDHBs anyway!

http://gretschpages.com/media/img/me...ch_page31.jpeg

And here's an ad for the guitar, also not SDHBs.



This site states:

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gretsch.html

1976-1980: DiMarzio or generic Japanese Humbucking pickup were used on some models, screw poles, metal cover.

So if any came with DiMarzios, they were either not SDHBs or they were some custom made version based on the DiMarzio PAF parts.