Skyrocketing gas prices....again...

[Slobrain]

Well on the local news today they said that the summer months might see $5.00 a gallon gas. Wahoo I get to go broke this summer with no vacation...

Rich getting richer and poor getting totally efin broke

I sometimes think the US economy is heading for another 1929 depression the way gas will stop folks from spending and the Dow Jones skyrocketing too.

Its funny that America is owned probably more by foreign investors than Americans the way we are being sold out by our own people.

And multi corporations exporting more jobs and importing poverty to boot...

When did America go so wrong??? Is it our politicians selling us out that bad???

SLO

BTW, Its funny how all of a sudden the refineries are having so many so called problems they use as an excuse to raise gas prices.

[hasserl]

When did we go wrong? I think it started probably about 40 to 50 years ago with the domination and monopoly of education by public education bureaucrats and teacher unions more interested in their own job security, and mass indoctrination, than in eduction. Which has resulted in the dumbing down of society to the point people do not comprehend basic economics and have a contrived fear and hatred of business and capitalism.

I don't know about you, but my economic situation continues to get better every year, and I am way ahead of where my parents were at at this point in their lives, which was way ahead of where their parents were at, etc. Life is good, and keeps getting better. If it's not for you maybe you should be looking inward, and not look to blame others for your situation.

I think its funny that anyone would think that a business like an oil company would invent reasons to reduce production levels of their main product at a time when the prices for that product is at all time highs. Any business would be at maximum production during those times, if at all possible. Problems that cause a reduction in production reflect inefficient management more than anything else, but not manipulation of the market. That is silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of basic business.

Gas prices at the pump are set by the station management, based on their estimate of how much it will cost them to refill the tank the next time they place an order, balanced against how much the competition across teh street or across town is charging. It's called market pricing, it's how the free market system works. If the station charges too much his price will be undercut by his competitors. If he charges too little he won't be able to refill the tank when it's empty. He also has to pay for all the business and environmental regulations, payroll and associated costs, insurance and taxes, etc. ANd he has to make enough to make it all worth his while to do so, or he goes out of business, then you have one less competitor out there, and one less supplier for you.

Quit seeing evil in everything, it's just people trying to make a living. The same as you.

[casey73]

And everybody said...Amen!!! hasserl - you took the words out of my mouth. I, like yourself, am in my early 50's, high school grad, working class upbringing, and my wife and I are doing amazingly well. Do I like paying more for gas. Well, no. But, I can afford to pay extra and am happy for that! Everything about my life is better than that of my parents. It is still a great country to live in and I'm glad I do! Thanks for that super sized helping of common sense!! We could all use a little more of it.

[Slobrain]

Let me retort to the comments made,

I do not see every thing evil. But my eyes are open to how corporations send jobs out of the country where hard working American folks could be doing these jobs. Oil companies that lie, like BP did in the Texas City explosion first blaming the blue collar workers, then later we all found out that it was problems from management not wanting to spend BP money to fix known dangerous problems that wound up killing innocent workers. Those dead workers could not get up and defend themselves against the lies.

So I guess Enron was just doing business as usual and that’s why the company failed No, it was lies and deceit that brought them down!

Just today I got my assessment from the local CAD and what do I see, my home appraised 10% more this year when the CAD folks know that home prices are falling because of what? Good corporations? Like the lenders that lied to a lot of American hard working class folks only to have the homes lost because of the supposed fixed rate mortgage that wasn't really fixed but most blue collar workers do not understand the writing on the loan paperwork that these companies set up so most folks cannot understand. Then get burned and lose what they thought was (the American dream). Lets see, how many homes are in foreclosure across America from these good honest lenders

I see good and evil in our country, also all around the world and if you’re not seeing both you must be living in LALALAND. But I would say the later is probably true and that's why this country is in trouble. Either no one wants to see wrong doing and try to figure a way to stop it, its easier for folks to just pretend that nothing is wrong until things go really wrong and its to late to fix the problems.

As far as gas prices set at the filling station, Not true, if that was the case who knows where gas prices would be but it starts at the price of a barrel of oil, not the pump.

Casey, I don't see every one saying amen till many others have a chance to chime in on this thread. sounds more like your own thought. But time will tell.

SLO

[Tom Phillips]

Right on Hasserl.
And I might add that another place that we went wrong was allowing people to think that the world owes them a living and that the government should take care of so many aspects of their lives. This too boils down to a failure of the education system. It amazes me that people believe the statement “Voting yes for this bond issue will not raise your taxes” Then they go ahead and vote for more ill conceived borrowing and inefficient government programs.
End of rant (for now)
Tom

[Brad1]

We can all look in the mirror and around our homes to see why energy prices keep rising.

How many of us have a gas-guzzler or two sitting in the driveway? How many electronic gadgets are constantly plugged in sucking juice, or turned on when we aren't using them?

How many things do we REALLY need that are Made In China? Do we need a new hi-def TV or LCD monitor right now? Or do we just WANT one?
Do we NEED a new cellphone or computer every couple of years? Nearly everything that is synthetic or plastic is made of petroleum. It takes energy to manufacture everything that is made. It takes energy to ship all that crap halfway around the world to us. The more money they make using petroleum to make more products that use more energy to manufacture and ship, the more money they have to buy what?
Luxury items like automobiles, appliances, computers, HiDef TVs...which all use energy. So, the more energy they use, the less available to us. Which drives up prices.

And no, it wouldn't make much of a difference if the item were made somewhere else. It would still take energy. I'm just picking on China because of the huge trade deficit that we are causing for ourselves with them. And also, because I think they really don't have our best interests at heart when manufacturing things. (That should be obvious with the pet food scandal). They have no REASON to make things more reliable and longer-lasting. They know we'll just throw stuff out and buy more. That's the way we are.

We are to blame for wanting more things, cheaper. We demand it. So, to make a profit, companies move manufacturing overseas where they can exploit people for lower wages and more profit. Or, they allow importing near-slave labor and exploit them because they know the illegal immigrant has little recourse.

It IS all about profit. A free market society needs profits to keep companies running. But, there is probably too little corporate responsibility to communities in America, these days, from supposed American companies.
I stated something like this in a line in a tune I wrote:
"Profit masturbation from the greedy corporations out to cut the bottom line,
Tax deductions for the charity donations for the unemployed they left behind".
(I was angry at a news segment I saw that day )

Look around your city How many fast-food joints do we REALLY need? A lot of those energy hogs are open 24 hours a day. WE demand more convenience. WE demand they feed us cheap food at all hours. Those places use massive amounts of energy to keep the grills and fryers operating to heat up the food that is kept in coolers, and to air-condition the place because of all those heat-generating devices.

And, to make sure we still get it cheap, we bring in more people who will work cheap without complaining. All those extra people we bring in to work cheap have wants and needs. They need to use energy to keep warm and get to work. They WANT to buy stuff that they can't afford in their homeland. Like stuff Made In China.

I think when the oil companies are reporting massive record profits, something stinks a bit. But, it's probably more that our energy prices (and other things) are high because we demand more stuff, cheap.

Brad1

[steve]

When it really comes down to it, people are stupid and selfish.

People who are doing well and can afford to pay for high priced gas/food/electronics/whatever, will. The prevailing attitude seems to be: "F*ck everybody else, I've got mine."

steve

[hasserl]

Of course there is good and evil all around, there always has been and always will be. Let's not focus solely on the evil, and assume all business and coporations, or even the pursuit of profit, are evil. It is the pursuit of profit that brings us all goods, jobs and income.

And of course the price of gas at the pump begins with the price of oil. But the station owner has no control over that, and neither do the oil companies. "Big Oil" does not control the price of a barrel of crude. Oil is traded, and the price is set on the futures market. Of which you are free to participate in. Exxon-Mobile is the largest oil company in the world, yet they control only around 3% of the worlds oil reserves. The big player is Suadi Arabia with about 70%; Iran has about 30% IIRC, and Venezuela about 15%. All the large oil companies combined have very little influence over the price of a barrel of crude. It is the guys on Wall street and finance markets around the world that control that. And much is based on geo-political situations around the world, especially those where most of the world's supplies come from. Also the effect on the supply from developing markets, such as China and India. They are betting on the future supply/demand ratio, and they are not betting small amounts. Fortunes are won and lost in the futures market. Are you feeling especially smart or lucky? Go for it. See how much better you can do.

Americans that continually vote for Democratic legislators have little room to cry about the high cost of gas, Democrats fight every attempt to increase domestic oil production and refining of fuels. Stop putting these people that work against your own best interests in positions of power.

[Mark Ingram]

When did we go wrong? I think it started probably about 40 to 50 years ago with the domination and monopoly of education by public education bureaucrats and teacher unions more interested in their own job security, and mass indoctrination, than in eduction. Which has resulted in the dumbing down of society to the point people do not comprehend basic economics and have a contrived fear and hatred of business and capitalism.

How incredibly astute!

...Say...You're not one of those radical, right-wing nut-jobs are you?!?

I agree with your views on education except that I would put the start of the dumbing down around the beginning of the mass migration to cities and the socialization of education.

People simply don't learn to think for themselves, and financial education is non-existent before college/university.

The rich get richer because they make it their responsibility to learn how money works, then they put their money to work.

[bob p]

When did we go wrong? I think it started probably about 40 to 50 years ago with the domination and monopoly of education by public education bureaucrats and teacher unions more interested in their own job security, and mass indoctrination, than in eduction. Which has resulted in the dumbing down of society to the point people do not comprehend basic economics and have a contrived fear and hatred of business and capitalism.

+1.

Its Econ 101: Elastic demand meets inelastic supply. This was already covered in the old thread about Evil Oil, but sometimes the concepts just won't take.

I think that another factor that makes superficial understanding of the facts such a problem is the crappy nature of the news media. The news is more focused on the Cult of Personality than on real news. Here in Chicago the news media has spent day after day talking about Paris Hilton going to jail, and no coverage whatsoever has been given to the Belgian oil refinery workers strike and the effects that it has had on the global supply of refined gasoline. I had to get that piece of information from Reuters.

Just in case nobody's noticed, although there's a good supply of crude inventory, there's presently a GLOBAL problem with refining capacity. Our local refining problems are bad enough, but when you take an entire European country's refining capacity offline, Europe has to shop on the world market, and everyone's prices go up.

Here in Chicagoland we have had fires at local refineries that continue to impede the ability to convert crude oil into gasoline, making local matters worse. The nature of the supply : demand relationship and its effect on prices should be evident to everyone, but instead of thinking about basic economics everyone's talking about Paris Hilton (as if she mattered).

Here in the Great Lakes area things are even worse than in other locations, as the EPA has mandated that we cannot use "regular" gasoline. We have to use a special "reformulated" blend that's far more expensive than conventional gasoline, and its in far shorter supply. Its truly ironic that the EPA mandates that we have to use "reformulated" gas that's more "environmentally friendly", but in fact it yields about a 20% reduction in MPG. As it turns out, we have a number of artificial market factors working against us. Many of them are so idiotic that only a bureaucracy could produce them.

SLO, I've noticed an emerging trend: Big Oil is Evil, eBay is Evil, PayPal is evil...

[Mark Ingram]

I think that another factor that makes superficial understanding of the facts such a problem is the crappy nature of the news media.

What a right-wing bomb-thrower you are! I bet you even listen to talk radio!

Do you rember that little experiment we all did in elementary school? the one where we put our left hand in cold water and our right hand in warm water for a minute or two? The we put both hands into a bowl of lukewarm water (neither cold or hot). The left hand thought the lukewarm water was warm and the right hand thought it was cold. It's kind of like politically-motivated commentary (I mean 'news reporting') today: the left- (television and newsprint) and right- (talk radio) wing factions are so far away from center that they don't recognize rational, even thought when they come across it.

With pitifully, painfully few exceptions, anything you can read in the newspaper, see on television, or hear on the radio is just another building block in someone's flaky agenda. If you know of any reliable, unbiased news outlets please let us know so that we can all hear/read/see them before they go out of business.

[bob p]

How incredibly astute!

...Say...You're not one of those radical, right-wing nut-jobs are you?!?

What a right-wing bomb-thrower you are! I bet you even listen to talk radio!

anything you can read in the newspaper, see on television, or hear on the radio is just another building block in someone's flaky agenda.

100% of your posts in this thread have accused people of being right-wing nut-jobs. You're right -- it looks like somebody has a flaky agenda.

[Mark Ingram]

...right-wing nut-jobs...

Ever heard the old saying "Takes one to know one"?

Fiscally conservative, capitalist, accepter of responsibility for his own situation in life... Guilty as charged!

Kindly refer to to my previous post about the elementary school experiment. Wherever one places oneself on the scale, you are probably farther from the center than you think. I know I am


On a vaguely more serious note:
All this left v. right talk is kinda fun so long as the flames remain in the grasslands and posts are backed by rational thought (unless we're talking religion, conspiracies, or UFOs...

[Slobrain]

[QUOTE=bob p;21500 SLO, I've noticed an emerging trend: Big Oil is Evil, eBay is Evil, PayPal is evil...[/QUOTE]


LOL....Na, I don't see them as evil, more just on a bit of corrupt side maybe.

Evil would be more like some guy kicking a dog when dog's down and enjoying hurting the poor dog.

Maybe some of the refineries are having issues. Who really know for sure?
I have a some what of a short temper though when it comes to hearing record profits from these oil companies while gas goes thru the roof here in the US. I think it would make most folks wonder if there is corruption going on in the oil companies. I mean how could gas just keep going up like anywhere from 5 to 20 cents a week non-stop????

SLO

[Brad1]

How 'bout.... some of all of it? Conspicuous consumerism and apathy, emerging foreign manufacturing economies, refinery problems, Wall Street speculation, geo-political conflicts, different fuel blends mandated by out-of-control regulatory agencies...and some corruption.

We are basically funding some people who want to wipe us off the planet, and THEN paying to defend ourselves against them.

Someone mass-emailed one of those "Don't buy gas on the 15th!" things. Yeah, that'll show'em! Won't make a difference. If you still use the same amount to get to and from work, or do other things...it's still the same gas whether you buy it the day before or the day after.

How about "Don't DRIVE on (whatever day, or days) each month!"?
Well...yeah, right. That'll get into peoples' actual habits and selfishness, and it's a good idea if OTHER people would do it...but not ME!

Besides, the oil comapnies may just do like the local water company did during drought conditions. "Everybody did such a GOOD JOB of conserving water last summer that we have to raise the rates to cover lost profits!"

Brad1

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Well, Brad, the don't drive on alternate days is aplied on some cities in europe.

Slo, may i say something? Bend the fucking rules. Get an old diesel, and drive on waste vegie oil! An old blazer for example, okay, big gas guzzling engine, but with a good turbo and some vegie, you'll save tons of money! Up your packing costs on ebay, if they're advertised clearly, there's no prob. Education wise, you'll see the big change during your live imho. Internet teatching. Less school and more ccomputer learning. Why teach history to kids who don't fucking give a shit about it? Or literature or whatever. They need to learn what they want! And they'll discover soon enough how to learn what they need.

Get my point?

Bye.

Max.

[Mark Ingram]

...some guy kicking a dog when dog's down...

Isn't that how they make country music?

[bob p]

<-- Tongue-in-Cheek icon used to identify tongue-in-cheek posts.



Brad, you're right -- its a multifactoral problem, and oversimplification just doesn't do it justice.

Back to the subject of monopolies on education, although I like the idea, I was lucky enough to have a privately funded elementary and secondary education, and I wasn't subject to the big monopoly educational system. Even so, Economics wasn't part of the school curriculum. I had to learn it on my own. I can't really place blame for this on the government monopoly on education. I consider Economics to be an advanced course of study that for many people is probably elective rather than compulsory.

[bob p]

Max, now that being "green" is fashionable, its harder to find waste veggie oil for converted diesel trucks. It used to be that restaurants had to pay someone to haul the stuff away, so they were quite happy to give it away. Now that its widely recognized as a useable fuel, its harder to find free supplies. Now that the restaurants are wise to the idea, they're selling their waste oil, and the price of free fuel just went up.

Its funny, the whole Green Ethanol thing is pretty big here in the Midwest, as farmers in the corn belt have dreams of profits like they've never dreamed before. But there's a downside:

According to ABC News, if 100% of the corn crop in the USA were diverted into biofuel Ethanol, it would provide sufficient energy to offset 12% of our foreign oil imports. 12%. That's not much, considering that if we used all of the corn for biofuel, there wouldn't be any corn left to eat.

Here in America its pretty hard to find any packaged foods that don't contain high fructose corn syrup or soybean oil. Imagine what's going to happen to the cost of food if the fruit of the American corn belt gets diverted into our gas tanks.

[Satamax]

Bob, imho, forget about what information politicians let go through their curtain. I agre ethat actual corn supply isn't enough, for methanol! But i'd say methanol is a pretty uneficient fuel, the basil has been there and done that, to no real avail. Imho, diesel engine are far more fuel efficient. Remember that most of your V8 petrol guzzlers are outdated by far, exept some modern engines, but even thoses haven't been refined enough by today's standards. In euroland we're doing a bit better as far as efficiency goes, but most of the past 20/30 years research has been done on diesels. Japs, have progressed on both sides, and have given their share. Now my opinion is instead of paying farmers (our farm industry is going astray) to have fallows, better grow lint for linseed oil and fibers, or groundnut, or else, colza (Brassica napus), or last sunflower. Another great idea of napoleon, in the times, when schools were becoming compulsory for everybody, and there was no other way than wood stove to heat up classrooms, then he decided that every road side was to be planted with plane trees, plane trees can have their branches trimmed every three or four years wthout real harm, and thoses trees have remained untill now. Nowadays the governement is removing most of theses because they're too close to the road and that kills a lot of people. It doesn't mater much, ecologicaly wise, because the forest is increasing size in europe, but the space freed by the removal of trees could be used for something else, growing oil producing plants. How simple to use fallows, hedges, and roadside to grow thoses plants. I think we've become real lazy, in the past century, before the space on th side of the roads was used for feeding goats or cows. Over here in the mountains, there's large amounts of teraced fields which are going completely abandoned, because it's too tiring to cultivate them! Why not use them. I'm pretty sure that could be the case in your country, thought the mountains have never realy been cultivated in teh us, as you always had more space than needed. And again, forget about methanol as a fuel!

Bye.

MAx.

[Mark Ingram]

I agree that actual corn supply isn't enough, for methanol!

I recently heard on my local PBS radio station (during my drive home) that *all* the corn currently grown in the US, converted to methanol, would supply only about 12% of the fuel need for our autos. Bio-diesel may make more efficient use of crops, but I suspect it will also fall far short of the gallons needed to replace gasoline. I believe the answer is going to be a collection of many technologies.

Maybe we should all go back to using horses: they consume crops (like ethanol production), provide transportation, then produce heating fuel afterward.

[TD_Madden]

Remember that SOMEONE isn't allowing any refineries to be built...why aren't there any on the East or West Coasts? Hell, we can't even get wind-generators out-of-sight off Cape Cod.

The NIMBY crowd are the real ones at fault.

[Slobrain]

Remember that SOMEONE isn't allowing any refineries to be built...why aren't there any on the East or West Coasts? Hell, we can't even get wind-generators out-of-sight off Cape Cod.

The NIMBY crowd are the real ones at fault.

The Nimby crowd? I never heard that one before. Can you explain?

OK, I'm slow sometimes...LOL....

SLO

[Brad1]

NIMBY...Not In My Back Yard!


Brad1

[bob p]

Remember that most of your V8 petrol guzzlers are outdated by far, exept some modern engines, but even thoses haven't been refined enough by today's standards. In euroland we're doing a bit better as far as efficiency goes, but most of the past 20/30 years research has been done on diesels. Japs, have progressed on both sides, and have given their share.

its a myth that all Americans drive gas-guzzling V8s. there are far more fuel-efficient 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder passenger cars being driven on the roads here than there are 8-cylinder SUVs.

the best selling line of automobiles here in the USA is the fuel-efficient Toyota, not GM, Ford or Chrysler. i think that the notion that America is a country full of gun-toting, beer-drinking, Billy Ray Cyrus fans who drive V8 pickups is a sign that someone is listening to too much country music.

[Mark Ingram]

its a myth that all Americans drive gas-guzzling V8s

This is very true. I drive a 6-cyl and by lovely wife drives a 4.

There are far more fuel-efficient 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder passenger cars being driven on the roads here than there are 8-cylinder SUVs.

Unfortunately, that is not the case here in North Texas.

a sign that someone is listening to too much country music.

This is *always* a problem.

[Mark Ingram]

The Cape Cod folk didn't want to have to dodge the wind turbines during their sailing excursions.

[Slobrain]

No one can say I ever drove a gas-guzzler. My first good car was a 1978 Mazda GLC 4 cyl. It was a good little car (get it) and didn't take much gas. My wife had a datsun 210 hatchback 4 cyl when we got married 20 years ago. We then bought a Mazda 323 4 cyl. Then a Camry 4cyl and a Toyota Rav 4-4 cyl.

We have stuck to the 4 cylinder format to save on gas even when it wasn't so expensive.

As far as energy conservation goes, we lurn out lights when not used, always have in 20 year marriage. I don't like to flush the toilet until I urinate in it at least 2 or 3 times even though it angers the wife, the smell.... We use the new florescent light bulbs thru out the house.

Heck, I wouldn't even mind putting up a wind turbine in my back yard but the homeowners association would fine me heavily as they say it looks bad

I would rather have a turbine and cleaner air then look bad but who can fight the HOA.

If some one wanted to help the green they should invent a new toilet that doesn't dump gallons of water on every flush, I cut my water level to the lowest in my toilets.

A house could be wired to use the bright LED's at such a low voltage for lighting.
To think about it, there is a dozon inventions waiting to be made helping cutting back on the carbon produced by each home in the US or around the world.

OK, who's gonna be the Ampager to make that million on a new green invention for the future???

[hasserl]

Max, I think you're right, the future is with diesel. The developement of diesel engines for passenger cars in Europe has far outpaced that of here in the US.Dirty little secret about bio-fuels, they increase ozone emissions. The US consumer's idea of diesel powered cars is burdened with the memory of cars from the 80's with gasoline engines converted to burn diesel; they were noisy, smelly and broke down alot and were expensive to repair, and were down on power compared to gasoline. A good modern diesel engine design is as quiet and clean, or cleaner, than a gas engine, and they haul ass! And they get great mileage while doing it.

Dirty little secret about bio-fuels, they increase emissions of ozone.

[hasserl]

No one can say I ever drove a gas-guzzler.

Oh, they can about me! Actually, I now drive a Ford Escape w/ 6 cyl engine, company car. But I still have my 68 Chevelle SS396 sitting here. It doesn't get much use these days, but it used to be my daily driver years ago. It's my third Chevelle, I had one other big block from 70, and one with a 327 small block also from 68. Then there was the Dodge Charger I had before that, a 71 with only a little 318 V-8. But it was sweet, the SE model w/ electric windows, AC, hide away headlights, upgraded interior. For a 19year old kid it was fantastic!

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Hasserl, the ozone production might not be that bad, as the ozone layer hole is still in bad shape. Thought ozone don't accumulate as C0² does.

Bob, and Slo, guys, remember that even if the mentality has changed in the us, the average power for a car in us is 230 something for a male, and 170 for a female. That's way over what we have over here. The usual female car here is in the 60 hp range. Okay, just remember that i'm an off roader driving a big diesel land cruiser. And that the prius isn't that ecologicaly sound! After, you all belive what you want!

Bye.

Max.

[bob p]

OK, who's gonna be the Ampager to make that million on a new green invention for the future???

I'm working on a new KT88-based stereo amplifier. It is very energy efficient, in that it recycles all of the energy it consumes by heating your house while you listen to music. Does that count???

[bob p]

Bob, and Slo, guys, remember that even if the mentality has changed in the us, the average power for a car in us is 230 something for a male, and 170 for a female.

yep, HP ratings are kind of insane over here. you don't need 300 HP to commute, though it is handy if you have to pull a trailer. the way gas prices are going, i wonder why more people don't buy scooters for their short trips.

one of the biggest "carbon footprint" changes I've made in my life has been -- believe it or not -- adopting a dog. now that i have a dog that needs to be walked, i walk a mile into town every day instead of driving a mid-sized car. in the spring, fall, and summer i don't have to drive to go to the park, the post office, the bank, or the movies. one walk into town every day spares a lot of car trips and significantly cuts down on the gas bills.

[Satamax]

Hi Bob, in the winter, i walk my way to the chairlift company i work for In the summer, i tend to use teh car more, building work etc! Thought, winter or summer, i only do 30km a week for shopping, and if i don't have to work outside of the workshop or chairlift company that's all i do usualy.

[Slobrain]

I'm working on a new KT88-based stereo amplifier. It is very energy efficient, in that it recycles all of the energy it consumes by heating your house while you listen to music. Does that count???

LOL.... I had a non master Marshall running 2-6550's and in the winter it would heat up a cold bedroom in about an hour or so when playing at med volume.

SLO

BTW, a dog isn't a bad idea, mans best friend, dog loves unconditionally and if some one tries to rob you on your walks the dog will bite his arse....


Ruff....ruff...