perhaps a dumb question,never thought aboutmuch before

[tonequester]

tonequester here,

Here's a post/subject which may or may not have a simple answer. Could even have something withmy hearing, which is poor at best. Why is it that on every Strat type guitar with 5-way switching that i have ever had experience with, there seems to be a considerable loss in volume when selecting the neck/mid position and the bridge/mid position. I even tried years ago to install a "hot"pick-up inthe mid position trying to remedy the situation to no avail. Could it have something to do with parellel or series wiring ? Any and all opinions are most welcome. I like to have tonal variation without having to constantly turning up, or down. I plan to install two seperate Bill lawrence noisless single coils, neck and mid, plus a stacked humbucker in the bridge position soon. I also intend to use Lawrence's Q filter(switchable). for varieties sake. I Still this let this issue "bug" me, only in that I'm as curious, as I am clueless. Thanks in advance to anyone who would like to take a stab at it. An answer would help me to beter undrstand
pick-ups and their varous methods of wiring. I intend to try to make my own pick-ups in the future. Quote : "I I live to laugh, andIi laugh to live." Milton berle.
tonequester.

[J M Fahey]

SHORT answer: it's normal because they are out of phase.
And it's also part of the typical Strat sound, so "correcting" it is usually not advised.
Of course, there´s people who use an "in phase" middle pickup and love it.

[tonequester]

SHORT answer: it's normal because they are out of phase.
And it's also part of the typical Strat sound, so "correcting" it is usually not advised.
Of course, there´s people who use an "in phase" middle pickup and love it.

tonequester here.

Greetings J M Fahey ! Thanks for the reply. I do remember reading long ago about the out of phase sound being part of the Stratocaster"s overall
sound 'Profile", but as usual, I didn't correlatet with the loss of volume that I had noticed. I,m afraid I still don't really understanmd why "out of phase" causes a
loss in volume, unless perhaps it has to do with some kind of canceling out business. I 'm probably way off the beam here, but I spend lot of time missing the point.
Folks like you are helping me "get the point" much more often since joining the forum. I hate the fact that I'm so far behind most here, but i'm trying to get up to speed.
Thanks again for your time and patience. I hope alls well in Argentina. I look forward to corresponding with you in the future. Perhaps by then I won't be so ignorant
of the obvious. tonequester.


Qoute : "In science there is only physics, all the rest is stamp collecting". Lord Kelvin.

[Chuck H]

OK... I LOVE JM. He's been complimetary on my clever circuits and also saved my bacon on the dumb ones. But I find the phrase "out of phase" a little misleading. The middle pickup in a typical strat wiring is NOT out of phase WRT the AC signal. The coil is reverse wound and the magnet is reverse polarity. The end result is that any external EMF is out of phase, but the guitars signal is not. So the #2 and #4 position on a strat are hum cancelling in the same way as a two coil humbucking pickup. The reason for the volume loss in position #4 is three fold. Phase IS one reason. But not "out of phase" per se, but slightly differing phase. This could be what JM was refering to. The two coils are in different places under the strings. So phase anamolies do occur. Because the pickups are parallel and not series the effect is subtractive. Another reason for the volume loss is the impedance. The parallel coils have a low impedance (roughly half of one coil), so the AC losses are greater. This is an arguable point since lower impedance can often mean less loss. But this is a consideration of the output impedance as it relates to the input imedance of a signal chain. The input impedance of most any amp is so high as to make the any known guitars output impedance pedantic. The end result is simply more loading of the signal due to the lower impedance. The last factor in the percieved volume loss in the #4 position is that there are two tone controls in parallel. In the standard strat type wiring there is a tone control for the neck pickup and a tone control for the middle pickup and NO tone control for the bridge pickup. These two tone controls are in parallel when the #4 position is selected. This results in a small loss of top end. Since we hear treble frequencies as definition, attack and clarity, the tone seems to lack the "cut" of other selector positions.

I actually use this phenomenon to my advantage. I set my amp to overdrive when used with the output of the sigle coil positions 1, 3 and 5. I use a "bright" circuit on the volume control of my strat to preserve HF when rolling back the volume control. So, I can roll back my volume and use position #4 for clean tones and then select any single coil position with the volume knob up for distortion. It's like channel switching with no pedals! Try it.

JM2C

[JoeM]

Not all Strat pickup sets are RWRP. Some feel that there's a loss of 'quack' in RWRP sets. Only RWRP sets are 'humbucking' in the 2 & 4 switch postiions. (for standard single coil pups)

[big_teee]

OK... I LOVE JM. He's been complimetary on my clever circuits and also saved my bacon on the dumb ones. But I find the phrase "out of phase" a little misleading. The middle pickup in a typical strat wiring is NOT out of phase WRT the AC signal. The coil is reverse wound and the magnet is reverse polarity. The end result is that any external EMF is out of phase, but the guitars signal is not. So the #2 and #4 position on a strat are hum cancelling in the same way as a two coil humbucking pickup. The reason for the volume loss in position #4 is three fold. Phase IS one reason. But not "out of phase" per se, but slightly differing phase. This could be what JM was refering to. The two coils are in different places under the strings. So phase anamolies do occur. Because the pickups are parallel and not series the effect is subtractive. Another reason for the volume loss is the impedance. The parallel coils have a low impedance (roughly half of one coil), so the AC losses are greater. This is an arguable point since lower impedance can often mean less loss. But this is a consideration of the output impedance as it relates to the input imedance of a signal chain. The input impedance of most any amp is so high as to make the any known guitars output impedance pedantic. The end result is simply more loading of the signal due to the lower impedance. The last factor in the percieved volume loss in the #4 position is that there are two tone controls in parallel. In the standard strat type wiring there is a tone control for the neck pickup and a tone control for the middle pickup and NO tone control for the bridge pickup. These two tone controls are in parallel when the #4 position is selected. This results in a small loss of top end. Since we hear treble frequencies as definition, attack and clarity, the tone seems to lack the "cut" of other selector positions.

I actually use this phenomenon to my advantage. I set my amp to overdrive when used with the output of the sigle coil positions 1, 3 and 5. I use a "bright" circuit on the volume control of my strat to preserve HF when rolling back the volume control. So, I can roll back my volume and use position #4 for clean tones and then select any single coil position with the volume knob up for distortion. It's like channel switching with no pedals! Try it.

JM2C

I agree with Chuck.
If you reverse the winding and reverse the polarity of the magnet, there is no phase loss.
The main loss of volume is because of having the pickups in parallel.
You also get some loss in a HB guitars like a LP.
Just not as much.
Strat Single coils are Less Ohms to start with, so you notice the volume drop more.
As far as a Quack difference, I have wound them and wired them different, and don't see a lot of change.
Most folks like the hum canceling in 2 & 4 so much, they don't mind whatever tone difference there is.
All the strat sets I sell are RWRP sets, I have never had anyone want to go back to non RWRP.
T

[David Schwab]

They aren't out of phase, but when you have two pickups on together the impedance drops, and you sometimes lose a little output. This is a common complaint on Jazz basses.

Also a RWRP middle pickup will sound exactly the same as a non RWRP middle pickup.

[tonequester]

They aren't out of phase, but when you have two pickups on together the impedance drops, and you sometimes lose a little output. This is a common complaint on Jazz basses.
Also a RWRP middle pickup will sound exactly the same as a non RWRP middle pickup.

tonequester here.

Thanks for what I believe is the best answer, to my query.Chuck H allkuded to this as well and I believe it makes perfect sense. Thanks again for the
patience to reply to a comparable novice such as me. All good things to you ! tonequester.