Builders: What do you do about UL/CE certification?

[waspclothes]

Hi all,
I recently finished a synth type noisemaker that I've started to sell to a few people. Originally I was using a 16-0-16V transformer inside and a nice power cord, but a friend told me I was not able to sell electronics that used mains voltage. After enquiring on an electronics forum (What are the issues with selling DIY stuff that plugs into mains (120/240VAC)?), I received many responses that confirmed the same thing. So I changed the design to use an AC-AC wallwart, and now I'm running into various issues with availability of wallwarts for different countries, etc, etc. I also think wallwarts are pretty lame (cheap cords, easy to break, etc.)

So I guess I'm back to square one, considering using an internal transformer. So my question is for amp builders.. how do you guys deal with the issue of certification for selling devices powered by mains voltage? Or protect yourself from any liability..

[soundguruman]

Hi all,
I recently finished a synth type noisemaker that I've started to sell to a few people. Originally I was using a 16-0-16V transformer inside and a nice power cord, but a friend told me I was not able to sell electronics that used mains voltage. After enquiring on an electronics forum (What are the issues with selling DIY stuff that plugs into mains (120/240VAC)?), I received many responses that confirmed the same thing. So I changed the design to use an AC-AC wallwart, and now I'm running into various issues with availability of wallwarts for different countries, etc, etc. I also think wallwarts are pretty lame (cheap cords, easy to break, etc.)

So I guess I'm back to square one, considering using an internal transformer. So my question is for amp builders.. how do you guys deal with the issue of certification for selling devices powered by mains voltage? Or protect yourself from any liability..

Relax, electronics kits are exempt. There was an allowance built in for custom made test fixtures, etc...it's the massed produced ready made stuff, that is sold to end users, that is subjected to UL certifications.
And yet still, you "could" have your home built unit tested, theoretically, by a UL approved inspector...
Certainly, if a person is licensed, in the state that they work, they are required to have some type of bonding or insurance. Example is a repair shop or manufacturer...

[waspclothes]

Relax, electronics kits are exempt.

Maybe I should have made myself clearer, I don't mean kit builders, I mean people selling their own DIY amplifiers (even if these are assembled from a kit and resold).

[J M Fahey]

Basically you can gamble while selling in your own Country, if you don't go through shops (even less Distributors and wholesalers) but keep it between you and your customer (friends, EBay) *but* as soon as your product goes through Customs, it will normally be stopped in its tracks, unless you can show an acceptable safety certificate.
That said, if your device is small, a wall wart is the best option.
Tube amps and such are on the opposite side of the scale and *need* to be certified.
Worst (sheer madness) is that the norms and rules you *have* to comply with ARE NOT AVAILABLE (crazy, isn't it?) and you have to BUY them for big $$$.

[Steve Conner]

This is a European perspective from my own work in the UK electronics industry.

Wall warts should be used wherever possible as they exempt you from testing to the Low Voltage Directive. However in order to earn its CE mark, your equipment still needs to pass EMC testing.

I know of a few small companies (who shall remain nameless ) who built equipment with internal mains transformers and didn't bother to do any testing at all. The CE logo was simply slapped onto the instrument. These products have been selling worldwide since the 90s with no issues.

This is called "self-certification"- roughly speaking a gentleman's agreement that you understand all of the safety and EMC issues and if your kit ever were to be tested, it would pass. In a niche market the odds of it ever being tested are minuscule.

Most of compliance to the Low Voltage Directive is printing the correct information on the rating plate. You will have to get your own copy of IEC 60950 (or whatever it is again ) to find out, or just copy the information on your toaster.

[R.G.]

Hi all,
... a friend told me I was not able to sell electronics that used mains voltage.

That depends, as noted on the country(ies) involved. In the USA, there is no federal requirement for safety certification, although there is for EMI. You don't have to get safety certification from UL - or anyone else - in the USA. Except that some cities have laws that you must be certified. And OSHA may make you use only certified equipment you provide for employees to use in work. And that certified or not, you can expect to be sued for zillions if anyone ever gets so much as a damaged fingernail from your stuff. In the EU, I believe that it's forbidden to sell things that are not "CE" marked. As Steve notes, it's the mark that is the first requirement. If it's not marked, you can't sell it. If it's marked, you are saying "someone has tested it against (usually) IEC60650 and it meets that set of tests. You can have a testing lab do the test - about $10k last time I looked - or you can self-certify. If you have a wall wart that's already CE marked, self certification amounts to printing on the required verbiage. If you build the AC power within, you are taking the legal liability that it meets the spec, and the liability when/if it damages people or property. I think there are still countries where it's an absolute requirement to test/certify, and may be a criminal offense not to. I don't follow the laws exactly, but it gets complicated.

So my question is for amp builders.. how do you guys deal with the issue of certification for selling devices powered by mains voltage? Or protect yourself from any liability..

Good question. I've seen a lot of custom amps with no pretense of certification, but that's here in the USA, where you're not required to. I suspect that almost all of the small amp builders just build and sell them, hoping to be under the radar or lucky.

Steve and JM are correct in their comments. One addition to Steve's: yes, low volume, no dealers/distributors and you're probably under the radar - until someone, possibly a competitor or disgruntled [fill in the blank here] gets miffed at you and asks a certification lab to test your stuff. The cert labs in the EU have a bounty-hunter clause. If they test stuff that you have CE marked and it fails, I believe they get to bill YOU for the failing tests. This motivates them to take complaints seriously, as they can make money by statute without you engaging their services. You'd have to check the laws, as governments tinker endlessly with laws, mandates, certifications, licensing, and anything else they can do to continue exerting control.

[GregS]

I'm just wondering how anyone gets started in an amp building business these days without exposing themselves to these risks. It seems prohibitively expensive to certify and only makes sense financially if you're a mass producer - yet you can't become big without first being small. Although you can stay "under the radar" by being small it seems to me there is still a liability risk in selling your stuff beyond family and friends - that being some opportunist might notice you're not safety certified and falsely claim they were shocked by your equipment and try to sue you. So, I'm just wondering if there is a solution to this problem such as getting liability insurance that's reasonably affordable? What do some of the non-mass producers do to protect themselves?

Greg

[Steve Conner]

I chose the dull option of working for "the man" in order to get limited liability and the funding to put my designs through CE certification. That means building what the man wants, in this case obscenely complicated electronics for the power industry.

If I wanted to start an amp business, I'd suck it up and pay the 8 grand or whatever it is to get the product certified, since I've been through the process and know how it works. Our last one cost £5k, but it used a wall wart to avoid the LVD, so it was only tested for EMC.

[Enzo]

Yes, there are risks, and yes small builders face them. And yes, you can buy liability insurance. That is why it exists.

[R.G.]

I'm just wondering how anyone gets started in an amp building business these days without exposing themselves to these risks. It seems prohibitively expensive to certify and only makes sense financially if you're a mass producer - yet you can't become big without first being small. Although you can stay "under the radar" by being small it seems to me there is still a liability risk in selling your stuff beyond family and friends - that being some opportunist might notice you're not safety certified and falsely claim they were shocked by your equipment and try to sue you. So, I'm just wondering if there is a solution to this problem such as getting liability insurance that's reasonably affordable? What do some of the non-mass producers do to protect themselves?

I suspect it's like having a first child - people don't know or think about what they're getting into, they just do what's fun and natural.

Those are good questions, but the answers are probably complex.

First, you're exposed to those risks whether you certify or not. It used to be in Europe and other places that if you certified with the government lab, that was a positive defense. CE has changed that. You're now liable, certified or not. CE labeled just means you can sell it. You still have to pay damages if a court rules against you. In the USA, there has never been a government certification. UL is "Underwriter's Lab" and was set up by insurance companies to test stuff and give better rates to people who tried to be safe and prove it. A court may decide that if you had it tested, you were at least not malicious and/or reckless by ignoring safety altogether, but a jury can still hold you liable for awards.

Testing is unpleasantly expensive, not prohibitive, for any venture that's not one-at-a-time. $10K for testing is not huge compared to the price for, say, transformers for a run of 100-200 units.

An opportunist probably would not look at certified or not before suing, at least not in the USA, since testing and certification provide not much in a defense. In the USA, you can sue anyone for anything, and there's a lawyer somewhere that will pursue it for you. There do exist serious, professional, attorneys. But the opposite is also true, like in any profession.

As for liability insurance, that's an interesting point. I would be very cautious about reading my liability insurance policy's exclusions if I were relying on that to bail me out of a legal award. Some companies are quite sly about writing in exclusions for any liability caused by business or profession. Then there is the concept about being judgement proof. Some states let you keep your house, car, and professional tools if you lose a suit, regardless of the award. There is an argument that being insured *makes you a target* because there is a source of money that can be had. An uninsured person in an exclusionary state may lose a bank account and a car or two, but won't necessarily be wiped out. I knew a professional midwife (yep, delivered babies for a living; simply huge liability exposure, worse than most medicine disciplines) who refused to get liability insurance because that would make her a target.

It is, in a word, a mess. The cost and time are only a slight nuisance to an established company, burdensome to a small company, and impossible for a one-at-a-time business. So probably most small-time amp builders live on a don't-worry-be-happy basis.

[J M Fahey]

Let me add that there is a reasonable way out of this mess, at least it's what I do : build your stuff *very* well, so it *does* pass all tests.
This does not mean that you will actually have them certified, of course.
If certification is compulsory by Law (not the case in USA, *yes* in Argentina where I live) you *may* face what I call an "administrative" problem; you just don't have "the paper" , *BUT* your product hurt no one and *if* tested it will pass.
I *may* get fined but will definitely not go to jail.
On the contrary, if somebody gets hurt or dies, no certification will save me so it's clear that the main point (and the spirit of the Law) is to build safe stuff.
Rules are complex (there are several IEC tests) but basically if I use plastic bobbins, insulate primary from secondary with a double layer of slightly oversized Mylar foil, take connections out through proper plastic tubing, dry the transformers in an oven overnight and then impregnate in good varnish, I can easily pass HiPot tests, which in Argentina (220V Country) means 3000 VDC primary to secondary. In 120V USA 1500V DC is enough.
There are many other tests, but passing this one means the others will be fine.
Nobody can claim he was shocked by one of my amps and if he does, *he* carries the burden of proof.
Our Law demands that damage is proven first and only then they start to look for guilty people ; "what if" does not cut much ice here.
Maybe in USA it's different .
So in a nutshell: I guess that if you work well and safe , besides flying low, you will have no problems.
And if you grow a lot: go by the book.
I have not certified my stuff yet ($$$$$) but my Customs guy told me that when needed I can either certify a given amp model (say, the XXXX 100W amp) or pay twice and get a "class" certification which covers, say, all my 100W amps which use the same PSU but which come in different models and for different instruments so it ends being the cheapest one.

[GregS]

Thanks to all for the very informative posts. It seems the "Thanks" button has been removed or I can't find it so I'm doing it here. That does make the situation a lot more clear.

Greg

[R.G.]

Good points, JM. The actual requirements, legal exposure, and defenses do vary widely from country to country. In the USA, one can be sued for anything, any time. Whether one is held responsible damages can depend on (1) the real facts, (2) how much 'justice' one can buy in the form of attorneys and (3) what the jury had for lunch that day, or something equally silly.

In the USA, the law provides that anyone proven to be, say, 1% responsible for some damage may be made to pay 100% of the damages. It's a little crazy. So, many abusive legal practitioners look for anyone involved with some damage instance, and decide whom to sue based on who has the deepest pockets. In your case, where you dunk/varnish transformers, in the USA system, someone who got shocked might be able to get a damage award from the maker of the varnish (!) or the oven (!) if you didn't have enough money to make the 'damaged' party's attorneys happy. If it sounds like I'm paranoid about the USA legal system - you're right, I am. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get me, though. 8-)

You do mention "type certification". In some/many countries, to get a certification extended to repeated product runs, one has to show evidence of consistency in manufacture to ensure that variations on the manufacturing line don't make them go out of spec. This often takes the form of showing conformance to ISO9000 and some of the other ISO specifications. So in some countries, the fact that one of your products tested OK (that is, they could not figure out how to prove it failed...), if you can't show documentation of manufacturing consistency, you'd have to test every single unit.

I sometimes despair about how governments work. While there are some undeniable Good Things about requiring products to be safe, rewarding people for figuring out how to take advantage of manufacturers in courts and also semi-forcing them to continuously pay "testing" money really bothers me. It's a little crazy.