concerning Bill Lawrence Q-filter.

[tonequester]

tonequester here.


First I will say that I may be posting too much according to some, and many of the questions that I ask are "dumb questions". That said I will continue to post, in the hopes that all will forgive my lower than normal "forum I.Q.". I am loking for anybody who has expewrience with the Bill Lawrence Q-filter(tone shaper). It's
an LCR filter which installs just like a tone cap, but has a much more varied effect on tone than a cap of any value. I'm thinking of installing one with my re-wire/new pick-ups
project. I have used Bill lawrence pick-ups before and thought they were great. They are well built, have great tone themselves, and cost MUCH less than Seymore Duncans,
DiMarzzios, Bartolinis, or even Fenders. My only concern is that I've only heard one You Tube demo of the Q-filter. It's not that I don't trust the demo, but some additional feedback would be greatly appreciated. The Q-filter is priced at $24.00, so it's not about the money, just the sound. The You Tube demo was just a guitar through an amp thing, and the tonal variety demo'd was impressive. Having never run into anybody else using one, I would really appreciate some real life experience. Thanks in advance
for any replies. tonequester. Oh, I do plan to make it switchable, so as to retain the stock tone circuit(with drop out pots, and a treble bypass for low volume playing).

[minime]

For crying out loud! It's only $24! Try it! You'll like it! or not! Let Your ears be the judge, THEN let us all know what YOU think of it!

[tonequester]

tonequester here.


Greetings minime ! Thanks for the post, and I do understand the sentiment. However, I "live" on Social Security Disability Insurance. I'd like to be able to say that I'm not a "cheap a--", but I have to be to an extent. If I were to sell everything that I own, I could probably afford that trip to Disneyland I've always dreamed of(if I "thumbed it). I save enough
to do a few projects with guitar and amp, by NEVER eating out, renting movies, going to any "events", and using toilet paper that ALWAYS falls apart when you when you truly wish it wouldn't. $24.00 is about half of the money that I spend on groceries and related supplies in one week. I'm 54. If I live another 22 years(average life expectancy), I won't make it if I dip into what retirement I have. if I did, it's 10% of the top, and a much higher tax bracket for the year. I'd end up with slightly more than half. Whoops ! I forgot. The Feds won't let me touch
it until I'm 65, or no more disability checks. Maybe you didn't think about my financial situation. Most don't. I truly hope that you don't ever have to find out first hand. I'll sum it up by
mangliong a famous quote : "some of us are born cheap a--, some of us have it thrust upon us". Best wishes with all you do. Oh. Someway, I will probably get that Q-filter. If and when it
happens, I'll be sure to post my opinion on it's performance. tonequester.

[Steve Conner]

using toilet paper that ALWAYS falls apart when you when you truly wish it wouldn't.

I truly wish you wouldn't post stuff like that. As far as I know, the Q-Filter is just an inductor.

[Earl Norton]

I truly wish you wouldn't post stuff like that. As far as I know, the Q-Filter is just an inductor.

I had one in a SG for years. effect was not too noticable. You could just boost treble frequency from the amp and do the same thing. I took it out eventually. You might rather buy a dinner out.

[Steve Conner]

Or a batch of deluxe toilet paper?

[tonequester]

tonequester here.


Greetings Steve. The Q-filter is described by the inventor as an LCR filter. Surely capacitance and resistance contribute to it's performance, in addition to inductance.
As for the toilet paper thing, sorry if you were disturbed by the comment. I joined this forum with the intention of learning by opinion and fact. I made it clear in my profile and introduction
what few things I have to my credit, and just how greatly I lack. I don't think kindly of someone replying to a serious query of mine, by implying that I am a "cheap a--". Here of late, I have been "slammed" for asking questions. Either the question is "dumb", or I posed it in a technically improper way(my take on it). I might have missed something when I registered. I thought that this was a place where the least educated could learn from the most. I also made it clear that I'm not only a first time forum member, new to using a computer, but that what I know about electronics was learned by what amounts to blind tinkering. Don't get me wrong here. The vast majority of those who have replied to my posts have been helpful in the extreme, and a few have become, dare I say..."friends". I don't mind criticism, but this forum is not about my personal finances, or my character. The person who choose to take the time to post what was
an accusation my tight-fistedness with money wasted his time and worst...mine. My reply to him was not exaggerated or untrue in any way. My income is $600.00 per year above the poverty line. Subtract my nearly $4,000.000 per year spent on prescribed medicines, put this in a different light. You might have noticed that I don't answer very many posts by others.
It,s not because I don't make the attempt to find a post where I may actually be able to offer something of value. The plain truth is that requests for opinions are comparatively rare when compared to those wanting fact(s). I do not usually have the fact(s) to offer. When one asks for an opinion, I usually do not have the experience which would allow me to give a truthful opinion. I refuse to waste anybodies time by making assumptions based on thin air about their motives for posting. I asked for opinions on the Q-filter because I had only listened to 2 demos
on You Tube., One seemed to me to demonstrate considerable more tonal variety than the other. I was not satisfied, and maybe a little skeptical after hearing both demos. Here's where I wen't wrong. I had the thought to post about it on the forum. I had just been "reprimanded" for improperly posting posting from a couple of "old timers". That post was an effort to find out how to donate to the forum by Postal Money Order, as I do not use "plastic". Pay-Pal was the only listed option. I was given the "raspberries" for using the forum for a personal message.
These "gentlemen" did not bother to tell me that there is a way to do just that ! Later in the day, a real gentleman replied to one of my posts with a personal message. However, he realized that I was unaware of the way to do this without arousing anyones wrath. He explained it to me asimply and I wrote the "pathway" down for future use. The "old timers" in question did not even understand my post in the first place. I was not trying to get ahold of a certain member, who they named. I wanted to get an address to send in my donation. That was as plain as
the "humbug" in the tone of their posts. The other guy understood immediately, and
gave me an explaination as to why the grumpiness, plus, exactly how to avoid it in the future by doing what the "old timers" failed to explain. Now, one of the complaints of the "old timers', was that I was "tying up" the forum with unnecesary clutter. What then, was the reply that I received, giving me a hard time for being cheap, when I asked a perfectly fair question. The
nice fellow that set me straight advised me to "drop" any post that smacks of any negativity. I did not "drop" yours. I'm not that thin skinned, and I apologize if my toilet paper remark
actually upset you in any way. "Anywho", I already had joined a different electronics forum, and a seperate music forum, before the "nice man" set me straight on a few things. my intent
is to leave this one behind, as soon as I can "properly" guarantee continued communication with a few folks, by different means, that I've become "close" to. I have tried to participate, as I could, In this forum to the best of my learning at this point. I have answered nearly every reply given me, just to give thanks for the reply(s). I try to give everybody my best greetings, and wish them the very best in signing off. I have never posted a single time to "correct" them nor to make an un-called-for comment. The whole thing has started to take on a negativity all it's own. Most of the "experts" that I've dealt with are too grouchy TO deal with(as a beginner). "I,ve said this a million times, but...". Sounds to me like they are tired of dealing with idiots like me. Then you have the one's that make it clear that you need to read "their" special thread on this. Well, I read a few of these. Strange that I was still left without an answer to my query.
I was even told after making a comment about needing to purchase several special tools in addition to the forum recommended kit, that if I didn't own a "PROPER" set of tools , that I should probably forgo that part of the forum. Such encouragement ! I think that for a time, I may still post here. However, I plan to take the"nice man's" advice. Ignore, or immediately "drop' any reply which doesn't suit me, or in any other way insults what little intelligence I have. I'll also make sure to not make mention of toilet paper, paper towels, or Kleen-ex either. I truly don't know if you were serious about this or not. Sometimes I fail humor, either coming or going. I'm not rude or crude by nature, and usually don't "come-off" that way. I will say this though.
I don't expect to ever here from "Mr. cheap-a--" in reply to one of my posts again. that will help keep the forum from becoming "cluttered". Sorry to go on and on. I'll leave you be now.
One last time, I did not mean to upset you, and I merely wanted to give "Mr. cheap-A--" pause to think about his blessings. Believe it or not, there are people in this world that $24.00
American is not easily come by. I am one of them. I don't intend to quit life, and the things that I love if possible. All the best in the world to you Steve. For now...tonequester.

[tonequester]

tonequester here.



Greetings Mr. Norton, and thank you for your opinion on the Q-filter. With the Wilde pickup site claimiung it to be an LCR network, but then only giving one spec of 1.8H.,
something doesn't quite add up(at least to me). If it works only ass an inductor, then it would merely cut bass, giving credance to your suggestion to boost treble at the amp. This was not
what I heard on the You Tube demo's. I would rather eat out as you suggested than pay $24.00 for a treble cut that my amp already has. I really appreciate your candor. tonequester.

[big_teee]

Don't have a dog, or pony in this show, but to clarify My perception of it all.
We are trying to bear with you and help you understand the tech forum concept.
You are listing way to much personal Information.
No one here wants to hear about anyones personal life, or personal income, etc.
Keep it Technical, and Keep it Professional and you will be much better off.
IMO You'll have better luck, if you search and research more, You may find the answer to the Question.
The search function on this forum will uncover lots of info.
So I suggest you read more, and ask the question as the last resort.
Please keep responses short and to the point.
Most guys won't read through those lengthy posts, me included.
Good Luck,
T

[Steve Conner]

What Big Tee said. We have the Parking Lot, Soap Box and Storm Drain sections of the forum where you can debate health insurance, pensions and toilet paper all you like, but the other sections are for the appropriate kinds of technical discussion.

I believe the Q-filter is an inductor, because the wiring diagrams (visible in a Google search) show it used in series with the existing tone pot and capacitor. Those would be the C and R elements in the LCR filter. If my hunch is correct, it'll behave as a notch filter. In other words, it starts to roll off high frequencies like a regular tone circuit, but then the trend reverses and it allows higher frequencies through. This agrees with the "treble boost" and "acoustic guitar effect" described above.

I believe 1.8H is a similar value to the EQ inductor in the Ampeg SVT. Someone found a cheap audio transformer that could be substituted when building a SVT clone. So it follows (to me anyway) that that transformer might be worth trying as a Q-filter. I can't remember the part number, but maybe some Google-fu will find it.

[rjb]

In TQ's defense, the latest Wilde Pickup and Bill Lawrence personal websites are both a bit clumsy to navigate, and appear to have eliminated information that used to be there before.

The MEF Search function also has issues:
It ORs search terms rather than ANDing them. So if you try to refine a search by adding terms, you instead broaden the search to include more irrelevent results.

I have found a work-around for the MEF search issue:
Using Google, search for {term1 term2 ... termn site:music-electronics-forum.com}

Anyways, with about 15 minutes of Google-fu, I found:
- Bill Lawrence relates that In the 1970s, the Q-filter circuit was employed in Gibson's L6-S guitar
- Therefore, a schematic of the L6-S will show the Q-filter circuit
- The schematic shows an inductor and capacitor in series with the tone pot, as Steve Conner stated.
- A forum member says the latest version of the Q-filter is a hum-bucking inductor that is shipped with a capacitor.
- Another forum member says the circuit shifts the resonant frequency; I haven't gone thru the circuit analysis to confirm this.
- A previous version of the Q-filter used a 1.0 Henry inductor; the current guitar version uses 1.8 Henry.
- B.L. encourages "tweaking". His site used to contain diagrams of different Q-filter wiring configurations and written guidance for changing component values. It took some digging, but I found copies of this info on a another gear forum.

Bottom line:
How much you like the Q-filter is going to depend on how well you tweak it to your taste. And on how well you like it.

Here are some links for your reading pleasure:
Q-filter
Bill Lawrence Website
http://www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/L6-S.PDF
Q filter What does it do, exactly? in Bill Lawrence Wilde-Gate Forum
Bill Lawrence Q Filter + Normal Tone Wiring
Implementing passive EQ scheme(including inductor) need help


And now the real reason I posted. Let me tell you about my prostate.....

Have fun,
-rb

[David Schwab]

I believe the Q-filter is an inductor, because the wiring diagrams (visible in a Google search) show it used in series with the existing tone pot and capacitor. Those would be the C and R elements in the LCR filter. If my hunch is correct, it'll behave as a notch filter. In other words, it starts to roll off high frequencies like a regular tone circuit, but then the trend reverses and it allows higher frequencies through. This agrees with the "treble boost" and "acoustic guitar effect" described above.

Yes, that's what it is. I had one years ago. It's more subtle than a regular varitone. I had it in my Fender Mustang with Bill's L-250 pickups. I eventually removed the Q-Filter as I didn't feel it was all that interesting. It was sort of like a regular tone control, but didn't remove the treble all the way, but more the upper mids.

[tonequester]

tonequester here.


rjb.. Thanks for the reply on the Q-filter. I appreciate the straight-forward opinion, and your expertise far exceeds mine in the ability you have to gather the info you desire.
You are way beyond me if you have the talent to know when a site has navigational problems, and how to go about circcumventing them. If I had this talent, I don't see why I would even need the forum. Most of my posts ARE last tries at gaining knowlege that I have already Googled to my unsatisfsaction, or they are attempts to get "real world"experience from a group of folks that as a whole have a tremendous amount of knowlege and experience to spare. I always make it clear when I'm looking for opinions. as opposed to facts. I apologize for being too "personal" in my posts. the one that caused such an uproar, was only in reply to someone who had answered a request for a simple opinion. That opinion was not whether I was being "tight" or not. From here on out I will be as impersonal as I can be, taking some good advice from a "new Friend" here on the forum to ignore all posts that are negative in attitude.
As for your prostate rjb, if you were to write about it, I'd read it. I read every reply I'm given in it's entirety, and try to reply to all of them, or at least I did. The people who are to busy
for my often elementary questions are easily discovered, and I will save them lots of time by saying...Please ! Don't bother with me. There are usually more replies than I have the time to reply to anyway. Once again, forgive me for any problems in the past . Nothing but questions and I hope a few answers from me in the future. Thanks again rjb. Your info may very well have saved me from spending $24.00 on something that is portrayed to be much more than an industor(not just on Wildes site either). I am proof that sometimes a little knowlege is more dangerous than a lot. If for real, I wish you the best concerning your prostate, My dad fights it, and an uncle of mine died from prostate cancer caught too late. Prayers and best wishes for all. tonequester here.

[52 Bill]

Just a couple of things here. I remember when the first Q-Filter came out, it was huge. Maybe the size of a Jazz Bass pickup. I think that I remember someone telling me that it was wound on a humbucker coil form and then encased in a plastic shell. It didn't really do much tone wise for me except when it was used on a Les Paul style guitar with humbuckers played through a distorted amp. Then the control seemed to have a nice effect on the mid-frequencies. Kind of a one trick pony. I may still have an old one buried somewhere around here. I don't even know if the original ones would fit inside the cavity of a Strat.

As for the postings, whenever someone posts something here, everyone has the right to respond or to not respond. There isn't a requirement to actively participate either way. Some people like Enzo will go out of their way to help, inform and educate. Others like to use forums to tout their own businesses, intelligence (or lack of it) and agendas.

One of the first things that you learn is that there will always be someone that for whatever reason will not agree with you and that they feel that they just have to share that with you. You could post that your favorite color is blue and someone will come back and berate you for your choice. You just have to understand that in any online anonymous forum there will be people that just seem to be looking for a confrontation.

My advice is to learn from those that offer information and real advice and ignore those that are just trying to get a rise out of you. Post whatever you want, just follow the rules of the forum.

[rjb]

If for real, I wish you the best concerning your prostate, My dad fights it, and an uncle of mine died from prostate cancer caught too late. Prayers and best wishes for all.

I apologize for making a bad sick joke.
I wanted to close the post with something that would fall under the category of "TMI" (Too Much Information), and "Let me tell you about my prostate" was the first thing that came to mind. Prostate cancer isn't something to joke about.
Let's pretend I said "Let me tell you about my bunions" (which happens to be true).
Thankfully, a few extra prayers and best wishes never caused any harm.

[tonequester]

tonequester here.


Greetings 52 Bill. The advice is good and well taken, as well as appreciated. The Q-filter is a little bit of a mystery to me. The Wilde pickup ad for it says it's present incarnation is as an RCL network which I could see might have a more complex effect than just an inductor "rolling off bass. However, it only gives inductance as a spec, and as Steve Conner pointed out, the LCR comes in when it is added to the existing tone circuit. The thing that made me think I might try it was the two demos on You Tube. Maybe my ears, or something else fooled me. $24.00 spent is $24.00 wasted if I only get a Bass cut masquerading as a treble boost. At least they have gotten the size down to a 1" cube. You definitely could not fit a humbucker in my Kramer's cavity, although I've seen smaller. Thanks very much for your advice on both counts. Have a great day. tonequester.

[mojah]

Hey Tonequester , I just saw your thread about the q filter. I've played around with lcr networks a bit and found they work really well with single coils, tuned at their resonant frequency, smooths them out, but not so much with humbuckers. I have them in my lace gold strats but pulled it out of my L-500C , L-45 strat. Anyway the math is here: RLC circuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and fig 8 is the circuit. If you use long cables your cable capacitance would have to be considered. attached is a diagram that has a mid cut and a "boost" on one control. Your Q filter would be the inductor vary the cap to change the center frequency. You don't need the "boost" side but I've found it more useful than the cut for humbuckers.

[tonequester]

Greetings mojah.

tonequester here. Thanks for the opinion(s) on the Q,-filter which is exactly what I requested in my original post on the subject. It's nice not to be "ragged" about being cheap. I also thank you for the thread to Wiki-RLC circuit. I usually hit Wiki first thing for general info on a variety of subjects, but for some unknown reason did not think to do so on this
topic. I also appreciate the warning about long cables, and resultant capacitance. I practice with about 8", and won't use over 12" if performing, so i think I'm probably in fair shape there.
Great thanks for the thumbnail diagram of mid-cut with boost circuit. It sure looks promising. I will print it off and put your "handle" on it so i don't forget who it came from. I'm now collecting such wiring diagrams because I'm pretty close to a complete re-wire with all new controls, new pickups(Bill Lawrence), and perhaps the Q-filter. I'll study your circuit with some others I've collected before I make the choice concerning the Q-filter. I truly appreciate your reply and info. Here's wishing you the best, and success in all of YOUR projects.
Quote : "Fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs. tonequester out.......for now. P. S. I just came to realize that I'm installing both a single coil and a humbucker, so both the boost and cut may work very well in my circumstance. Thanks again.