Real NOS PAF era plain enamel wire....

[SonnyW]

Flat wound pure nickel brighter than wound round nickel plated

Oh well. Just a thought.

[Ward]

Oh well. Just a thought.

Full moon

[big_teee]

They were probably even brighter when you consider in those days they were probably playing with the heavier black diamond strings, maybe even flatwounds. Especially for that sneaker barre cord stuff.

Black diamond strings.
I think that is what my dad played years ago.
If I remember right they would rust while you were putting them on.
T

[SonnyW]

Black diamond strings.
I think that is what my dad played years ago.
If I remember right they would rust while you were putting them on.
T

The plain strings sure did. I think those were about the most popular strings for electrics back in the 50's, at least among my uncles and their friends. They mostly played big old archtops. And I remember reading in BB King's book he said the same thing. Most of the ones I remember were flatwound too.

[Possum]

Yeah vintage PE was "simple." I mean it LOOKS the same as it does now, LOL... I meant no disrespect to your Dad, if he thinks old wire is no different than it is now, well throw the stuff in the garbage ;-) I have 6 pages of data that says different, done by the best magnet wire company in the business in their high tech lab. I don't have a lab handy in my shop, but I'm the one that asked the questions on what I wanted them to check, I directed the process, and they gave me more than I was expecting, a wonderful gift that we both learned interesting things from. I'll give you another example of an old timer not knowing much despite being directly involved in history. Seth Lover. There are many interviews with him online and in books. Seymour Duncan repeatedly asked him what kind of metal he used in the magnetic circuit. His answer was always "soft iron." Soft iron is not an alloy name and the term can mean almost anything. Duncan pushed him on it in one interview and Seth admitted he just went to the stock room and got whatever steel they had on hand. Despite being the inventor of that particular design (he didn't invent humbucking...) he had no idea what kind of alloys were used in it. The guy I talked to who was there also had no idea either. Does that make them dumb? No, they just worked someplace and used what the company bought. There's no attitude in that, its just a proven fact. The materials were all product of the technologies of the times. Those technologies are largely GONE. Steel isn't made in open hearth Bessemer furnaces since 1968, the copper in magnet wire is of superior purity than what they were doing, as well as all the other differences the lab found.

Yeah full moon! Offenses taken where none was intended, never fails...... 'scuse me while I kiss the sky ;-)
BTW, if you ever do find a NOS vintage speaker expect to pay a very hefty price for it, especially Jensens or Celestions. No one has equalled what they made in those days.

[Ward]

I've got a quad of 1970 014 Celestion greenies, later than what you're talkin about but still, they are forkin great speaks.

[SonnyW]

Despite being the inventor of that particular design (he didn't invent humbucking...)

Just a comment, but even Gibson now admits that A.F. Knoblaugh's pickup patent for Baldwin came 21 years earlier than Seth's. And hum bucking was used in other applications before that.

The History of the Pickup

[Ward]

Just a comment, but even Gibson now admits that A.F. Knoblaugh's pickup patent for Baldwin came 21 years earlier than Seth's. And hum bucking was used in other applications before that.

The History of the Pickup

With a name like that it's no wonder no one said anything

[enkindler]

Thanks Ward! The interesting thing to me about vintage PE is there are indicators in the lab results that point to it being brighter than modern wire, but then there are indicators that its darker sounding than modern wire. Will it balance out and be nothing special or will it swing in one direction or the other? If you listen to audio of vintage Les Pauls when they were just about brand new the pickups can be extremely bright, see video below. Then with vintage Les Pauls that exist now there are factors that are dumbing down the treble in the harness. Aged braided shield wire in experiments I did, really clamps down on treble with just a short length of it. Probably the cloth deteriorating or absorbing moisture, hard to say, but modern braided wire is way brighter. My vintage PAF's if I unhook the original leads on them have a very high resonant peak, re-attaching the old leads drops the peak by a full 1 khz.

The Tielman Brothers Rollin' Rock live 1960 - YouTube

I've been thinking about this and I have a question.

When you push back the cotten was the wire really tarnished?

The reason I ask is that at room temp cupric oxide is a semi conductor and has a dielectric value greater than 18 vs cotten and wax which are below 3. I haven't done the math to see what this would do but it is a "maybe".

Also was the resonant peak in the audio spectrum? And you didn't have any of the extra wire coiled right?

I'll be intrested to find out what you discover with your sweet score but there is another option you forgot in yoru first post. The new and the vintage could sound diffrent but not better or worse than the other

We had some guy try to sell us speaker cables for for 5 figures at a movie audio edit suite at a job I had in the late 90's. They had some potted super duper mystery boxes in the center. Pretty much the entire engineering department was in there for an afternoon trying to decide which was better...The final decision was that it was diffrent but not better or worse. Of course seeing as our stock "speaker cable" was romex we didn't buy the fancy ones.

I really never had considered that as an option before for some reason.

The video is great, do you know what effect having your guitar player stand on your double bass while you play it lying on your back has on tone.

[SonnyW]

The video is great, do you know what effect having your guitar player stand on your double bass while you play it lying on your back has on tone.

Don't know what effect it would have on the tone of the double bass, but if that bass player was doing any singing it might make him sound like Frankie Valli

[Stratz]

Yeah vintage PE was "simple." I mean it LOOKS the same as it does now, LOL... I meant no disrespect to your Dad, if he thinks old wire is no different than it is now, well throw the stuff in the garbage ;-)

I have no idea how you got it in your head that my Father "thinks old wire is no different than it is now". That was never implied one way or another.

What I said is that the old PE that I get from him is not as consistent as the newer stuff that I use. Thats my opinion.

Rob.

[Possum]

Really good questions! Thats what its all about for me, asking the right questions ;-) The wire is tinned so no bare copper. But the outer tinned part, yes is a bit oxidized in that its not bright wire. Dielectric of 18 is not really enough to make such a big difference in such a short piece of wire. In my experiments with dielectric potting substances, I had to use stuff rated up in the 30's and 40's for it to be audible. The rez peak of an unconnected PAF was 6khz, 5khz with the lead attached. Pretty big drop! "Better" or "worse" are subjective, if there is notable differences I'll do a video of it and let viewers decide for themselves. I had a '65 Strat pickup in here that was intermittently working and listened to it, it sounded really good and had a quality I can't describe, rewinding it to same pattern and DCR that quality got lost. Its those mysteries that keep me asking questions....

I think actually Gretsch had a working product humbucker before Gibson did and one account I read that Gibson management asked Seth to make something like Gretsch was using.

COOL speakers, the old ones really can make an amp sound vintage.

I've been thinking about this and I have a question.

When you push back the cotten was the wire really tarnished?

The reason I ask is that at room temp cupric oxide is a semi conductor and has a dielectric value greater than 18 vs cotten and wax which are below 3. I haven't done the math to see what this would do but it is a "maybe".

Also was the resonant peak in the audio spectrum? And you didn't have any of the extra wire coiled right?

I'll be intrested to find out what you discover with your sweet score but there is another option you forgot in yoru first post. The new and the vintage could sound diffrent but not better or worse than the other

We had some guy try to sell us speaker cables for for 5 figures at a movie audio edit suite at a job I had in the late 90's. They had some potted super duper mystery boxes in the center. Pretty much the entire engineering department was in there for an afternoon trying to decide which was better...The final decision was that it was diffrent but not better or worse. Of course seeing as our stock "speaker cable" was romex we didn't buy the fancy ones.

I really never had considered that as an option before for some reason.

The video is great, do you know what effect having your guitar player stand on your double bass while you play it lying on your back has on tone.

[nutsdan]

Rob, I don't think that possum was questioning your fathers inteligence, but I am fairly sure that while he was working for lockheed etc the audio properties of the wire and the effect that a guitar string would have on said magnetised coils would not have been high on his research priorities. So I believe that both parties would have information that they would bring that may enlighten each other. And that is a discussion that I would like to listen in on!!!

[Possum]

Good comment nutsdan ;-) I'd love to see an actual metallurgical series of tests run on the copper in vintage magnet wire. Elektrisola told me the copper was less pure, but that was all they said about the copper. But that could have a significant effect, one turn of wire on a bucker bobbin is about 4 inches long, now multiply that by 10,000 winds for the average recipe, so you got 40,000 inches or 3,333 feet of wire. So a small difference in purity could maybe be heard easily.....or not? Thats what i want to find out. They did a bunch of other measurements so the copper was a very minor mention to my question about it.

[David Schwab]

Duncan pushed him on it in one interview and Seth admitted he just went to the stock room and got whatever steel they had on hand. Despite being the inventor of that particular design (he didn't invent humbucking...) he had no idea what kind of alloys were used in it.

Because the alloys were not part of the design. Any magnetically soft steel would do. Same with the magnets used.

The fact that they wound the bobbins "until full" showed that they weren't all that fussy on the details of the pickups.

Trying to recreate those pickups leads to to analyze all that stuff, but the steel used was not chosen for tone any more than the magnet wire or magnets. It had to be a functional pickup that met whatever limited specs they had.

[big_teee]

Good comment nutsdan ;-) I'd love to see an actual metallurgical series of tests run on the copper in vintage magnet wire. Elektrisola told me the copper was less pure, but that was all they said about the copper. But that could have a significant effect, one turn of wire on a bucker bobbin is about 4 inches long, now multiply that by 10,000 winds for the average recipe, so you got 40,000 inches or 3,333 feet of wire. So a small difference in purity could maybe be heard easily.....or not? Thats what i want to find out. They did a bunch of other measurements so the copper was a very minor mention to my question about it.

Rather than the debate in purity of wire?
The best gauge in wire effect IMO, I learned from J Grundy.
Measure Diameter, and Ohms per thousand feet or 10 feet.
I Think these things do effect tone.
I have experimented with larger, and smaller per gauge wire.
My preference is a larger per gauge for neck P/U, and smaller for bridge P/Us.
Per previous Posts, John duplicates old pickups, by choosing what diameter and ohms per foot the wire is.
I think he has it figured out, and you can do that with modern wire, but it does take a large stock pile of wire to choose from.
Plus you have to have all that data to know what your looking for in the first place.
So Possum, if you like the sounds of the new wire?
Maybe You can get real close, if you can find a wire of same Ohm per Foot, and same Outside Diameter.
T

[Mike Sulzer]

.. If you listen to audio of vintage Les Pauls when they were just about brand new the pickups can be extremely bright, see video below. Then with vintage Les Pauls that exist now there are factors that are dumbing down the treble in the harness. Aged braided shield wire in experiments I did, really clamps down on treble with just a short length of it. Probably the cloth deteriorating or absorbing moisture, hard to say, but modern braided wire is way brighter. My vintage PAF's if I unhook the original leads on them have a very high resonant peak, re-attaching the old leads drops the peak by a full 1 khz.

The Tielman Brothers Rollin' Rock live 1960 - YouTube

You cannot tell how bright the pickups were from that recording. There are too many other factors affecting the frequency response between your ears and the pickups.

There is one thing you can tell: the lack of brightness in the bass strings compared to the treble strings. That is a relative thing that survives all kinds of other frequency response changes. Remember, it is a result of geometry, the spacing between the two coils in the humbucker. This is a very obvious difference between humbuckers and single coils that rarely gets specificly mentioned, but it is such a large effect anyone can hear it, even without a good A/B test. It still amazes me that guitarists mostly accepted this huge change in tone when Gibson introduced its humbucker, considering the small effects that get blown up out of proportion these days.

[Jim Shine]

I was bidding in that spool as well. I was wondering if the winner would be on this board.

[Possum]

Vintage yes was inconsistent, but the wire we're getting now is from Elektrisola, they are strict and very consistent in what they produce. REA was the opposite, you never knew what they were going to send you. But consistency really has nothing to do with what vintage wire is. To judge the purity of vintage magnet wire copper you first have to strip a bunch of it and make sure its dead clean or you're going to get alot of carbon showing up in the chem analysis. Then you'd have to get enough to do a vaporizing test which might be a chore. Other tests would be a good idea too. I save all the wire from rewinds, so some day may do that.

Wire diameter and ohms per foot is a bit simplistic. You're totally forgetting insulation thickness, and I don't mean "heavy" formvar, vs. "single" etc. Different manufacturers don't use the same standards. REA wire was a little on the thick side. The American Wire Corp. stuff from 2002 era and still some newer stock on Ebay has very thick insulation, its almost a heavy build its so thick. Totally opposite of what vintage wire is. I have some rolls of fake black PE, thats actually single formvar but the insulation is extremely thin so its a really dark sounding wire. Still trying to find a use for it, but eventually will. In the lab analyses the AWC wire was the least close to vintage, REA was a little closer than what we get now. But, basically right now you're stuck with what MWS sells and thank the tone gods that its very good sounding wire consistent from batch to batch. I don't wind by "ohms" I strictly use turn counts only.

Got a rare early Patent in today that reads 8.2K, customer thought it was dead, just needs a solder joint fixed, great research score to run it thru some tests and listen to it, obviously transitional throw over from '61, never saw a Patent that hot before. Luv this stuff!!!

No, Gibson didn't spec any alloys, but in one vintage era pickup they did specify a certain alloy, real obvious because its something you can't buy off the shelf at steel supply places. The parts in PAF's were the same as in P90's, basically off the shelf steel and screws. But you have to know what those alloys were, and also know that they don't exist in the same form now as they did back then. In my research I did plenty of tests and experiments by replacing PAF parts with my parts of modern steel alloys and the PAF parts don't sound the same as modern new steel does.

[copperheadroads]

I got a couple bags of vintage PE that I pulled off a couple of Vintage p-90's That I repaired .If anyone is interested
One's a '57 ,the other is a '58

[Possum]

If you're offering, I'll take it off your hands, especially if you know the year of the wire. Let me know....

[copperheadroads]

If you're offering, I'll take it off your hands, especially if you know the year of the wire. Let me know....

It is just used wire,I was saving it as a reference,It might come in handy in maybe a discussion here ,so I wasn't really serious about the wire ,If you need any spec's I,d be glad to share
It's color is dark but with hint of orange

[Possum]

Yep, good idea to keep it. I keep the wire from everything up to about 80's period and even some of that like the Shaws or Leo era G&L stuff. I have a dog ear P90 from the 50's in here today to rewind if I can't find a break in the coil. Wish I could find a way to unwind vintage coils without breaking the wire, but nearly everyone has some undercut wind where it snags. I like to unwind on a counter and watch the pattern as I go, very educational.

[RedHouse]

... If you listen to audio of vintage Les Pauls when they were just about brand new the pickups can be extremely bright, see video below.
The Tielman Brothers Rollin' Rock live 1960 - YouTube

Oh Possum, you really should change the Bong water once in a while!

[David Schwab]

Wish I could find a way to unwind vintage coils without breaking the wire, but nearly everyone has some undercut wind where it snags.

I tried unwinding this, but it had so many breaks that I just cut it off.

[big_teee]

I tried unwinding this, but it had so many breaks that I just cut it off.

What is the yellow between the screws?
Is that like a foam or something?
T

[David Schwab]

What is the yellow between the screws?
Is that like a foam or something?
T

Yep. foam rubber. It's to insulate the screws from the wire. That's a 1972 Rick pickup. I think the owner tried to raise a pole screw under the low E string and killed the pickup. The brass screw in the middle is where the start wire is attached. It's a very odd pickup.

[Stratz]

I tried unwinding this, but it had so many breaks that I just cut it off.

A hair dryer usually helps. Especially if it's been taped off on the outer layer.

[David Schwab]

A hair dryer usually helps. Especially if it's been taped off on the outer layer.

It was not wax potted, but had many breaks on the outer layers, and I could not find an end that would unwrap.

I'd likely never use the wire anyway, but if I could have found the free end I could have repaired the pickup without rewinding it.

[big_teee]

It was not wax potted, but had many breaks on the outer layers, and I could not find an end that would unwrap.

I'd likely never use the wire anyway, but if I could have found the free end I could have repaired the pickup without rewinding it.

I always lose my patience, and take the Exacto Knife to it.
Supposedly Seymour Duncan, used to take the wire off and put it back on.
T

[Stratz]

It was not wax potted, but had many breaks on the outer layers, and I could not find an end that would unwrap.

I'd likely never use the wire anyway, but if I could have found the free end I could have repaired the pickup without rewinding it.

I wasn't referring to wax potted pickups only. The hair dryer helps loosen up most anything sticky on the outer layers.
Sometimes I find the finish end by gently brushing the coil in the opposite direction of the wind with a tooth brush.

[copperheadroads]

Supposedly Seymour Duncan, used to take the wire off and put it back on.
T

I did that last weekend

[Possum]

1972 magnet wire wasn't substantially different than what we get now anyway, the biggest changes happened in '65, who knows why, probably a change in technologies. I soak coils in naptha, it doesn't hurt the wire or bobbin and really helps get 50 year old black glue from the tape off the coils, brushing with Q-tips helps the process. Some of that stuff just hardens too much and only scraping will get it off, especially where the black tape was used on the baseplate, you can never get the tape off that part on PAF's hardly ever without destroying the tape. I have a very early 50's P90 in now that I'm going to attempt to get the wire off intact, those things hold enough wire for a full PAF. Doubt I'll get it though.......

[Fuzzy Logic]

Cool find. The last stuff like this I ran across was 80+ lbs. of 44AWG PE wire from the 50's. Wrong size for what I make though. I did get some spools of old Essex and GE heavy Formvar in 42AWG and 43AWG. I have run across NOS wire 4 different times. Three of the four were people that I bought winding machines from and I just asked if they had wire old wire to sell when I bought the winders. Two different places had a lot of wire in different sizes. The 42AWG PE seems to be harder to find than Formvar 42 AWG and 38AWG wire. There are a lot of wire makers from the 50's that are gone like Winco, Anaconda, Viking.....

If you have any variety of wire to test what you will see is the old 42 AWG wire varies in diameter from .00255 to .0028 and varies in ohms per foot from about 1.74K to 1.88K per foot. Post the diameter and the ohms per foot on the forum when you get a chance.

Interesting.

Wire with the diameters and ohms/foot you mention is basically AWG 42.5 size wire (albeit with a tighter specification for the bare wire diameter and, as it appears, a less tighter specification for insulation thickness when compared to modern wire).

So, just out of curiosity, are the wire diameters you mention valid for vintage wire while it is still on the spool or are these diameters valid for vintage wire after it has been wound on a bobbin ?

[Possum]

I just scored a 5lb. roll of PE from 1971 for $16, its 40 gauge. Very modern stuff. You have to be careful about this ohms per foot stuff. The data I got from Elektrisola was done in a lab, I'm not real sure you can get accurate measurements at home, I'm sure they have some kind of temperature controlled device and a high tech meter of some sort. The REA stuff always had ohms per foot written on each roll usually. I would think you'd need to measure a good long section, more than a foot then average it out since just a one foot piece is unlikely to match same from other parts of the roll. The actual insulation measurement can make your ohms measurement meaningless if its different from your other stock, so your wire could sound real bright or dark but have close ohm specs. Then there's bare wire spec which also varies, you have to acid strip the insulation or your measurement will be wrong. Elektrisola uses lasers to measure their specs and a simple micrometer is just not very accurate overall. I always mic new rolls of wire but in the end only winding coils and listening to a new batch is the final word.