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Thread: Wide Range Humbucker!

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Wide Range Humbucker!

    Up for discussion is the Fender Wide Range Humbucker?
    As I understand it there was an original, and I think Much later the Reissued Version.
    Not Sure, I have practically no info right now, but maybe the original used rod magnets, or variations of them?
    I think the reissues maybe employed Bar Magnets?
    Not sure of the bobbin heights, or the string spacing used on the neck, and bridge pickups.
    I'm interested in doing a project, and making a semi half/A$$ Clone.
    The later part would be because I want to use a regular 2 point mounting baseplate, not the original 4 screw, that required a 4 screw ring.
    That way it could be used in a regular ring with 2 center adjustment screws.
    So if anyone has one laying around that they could provide some specs that would be great!
    Thanks,
    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
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    Terry

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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    The polepieces are the magnets in these Terry, They're threaded CuNiFe rods. It measured 11.2k
    I tried this one in a couple different guitars. There's nothing "remarkable good" that I found about them. When I was offered a bunch of money for it, I didn't hesitate to sell.




    edit: I've never tried a repro
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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    There is currently a discussion over in Amp Theory and design that got me intrigued.
    If we could come up with a cover, maybe drill a blank cover.
    I thought maybe do 3 alnico rods on each side,(These would be under the cover).
    The 3 screws on each side with maybe have a ground off narrow ceramic magnet on each side, to power the screws?
    Just in the "What If" stage I go through from time to time!
    BTW thanks for the great pictures.
    All of my Pictures and PDFs got Eaten by the last Forum Catastrophe!
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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    The overall size of a WRHB is much larger than a regular h/b. Building one with normal parts wouldn't give you much more than a slight resemblance, and certainly wouldn't accurately reproduce the tone. I think I took some measurements. I'll check my notes.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Just found this.
    http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachmen..._wrhb-dims-jpg
    They are huge.
    This is turning out like most of my Pipe Dreams!
    We can still make a mini clone.
    T
    Here's the dimensions of a regular gibby type bucker.
    http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop_i...itars/tb59.gif
    Last edited by big_teee; 05-12-2013 at 12:25 AM.
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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    This is turning out like most of my Pipe Dreams!
    You give up too easily. If I were to go about making one that was close to the original with readily available parts I would make the coil forms with some cut down strat flatwork. I'd probably use A2 magnets, and offset them similar to the original. It's not too difficult to make a "one off" cover out of sheet material by folding, and soldering the corners. ... just sayin'

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    You give up too easily. If I were to go about making one that was close to the original with readily available parts I would make the coil forms with some cut down strat flatwork. I'd probably use A2 magnets, and offset them similar to the original. It's not too difficult to make a "one off" cover out of sheet material by folding, and soldering the corners. ... just sayin'
    All good ideas!!
    The big humbucker like the link I gave, is way too big for a regular guitar.
    So If I go that route, more than Likely stick to Gibby Dimensions.
    That was the same issue whith Charlie Christian.
    If you built it, then it wouldn't fit anything, so these great big Pickups lose their appeal with me real quick!
    Fun to think and talk about though.
    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
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    Terry

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    The RI fake Wide Range humbuckers use a bar magnet & in under & are wound different the the original WR pickups ,Different gauge of wire as well.
    I rewound a set for a customer last fall ,I ditched the bar magnets & used alnico rods .
    I shaped the alnico rods & slotted the top just like the original magnets .the customer was pleased but now I figured it was more trouble than its worth
    big ass bulky humbucker that dont fit in anything ....What was Seth thinking
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    "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    A big part of the WR tone is the very wide spacing ,It's probably 55mm wide .
    "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    I have samples of the threaded alnico rods
    But the supplier sent me 2 magnets of 2 different lengths as samples ....wtf ?
    So there goes the prototype .
    When mojo starts selling them ,I don't think they will be cheap ,probably a buck50 a piece or more
    "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

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    Member nickc35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperheadroads View Post
    I have samples of the threaded alnico rods
    But the supplier sent me 2 magnets of 2 different lengths as samples ....wtf ?
    So there goes the prototype .
    When mojo starts selling them ,I don't think they will be cheap ,probably a buck50 a piece or more
    I don't think Mojo is going to sell individual parts to make WR clones. They know very few makers out there can make a vintage-spec'd clone. And they can get a lot more money for a completed pickup than they can for the individual pickup parts. Maybe someday when all the big pickup makers are making WR clones and the market for them thins out Mojo may offer the parts. Us small-time winders can only hope.

    Crazy Parts sells covers and base plates to make WR clones. I have heard from a couple of small-time winders who have made WR clones, if you use the top flatwork only for a Tele bridge pickup for the top and bottom to make the bobbins, the string spacing matches a WR cover. So if you bought cover and baseplate from crazyparts.de and made bobbins from the top flatwork of Tele bridge pickups, you would still need to fabricate the steel plate which sits under the coils. I've heard .020" thick will work well. Then the last component needed would be the threaded rod magnets. The small-time winders I've talked to just used alnico rods in place of the thread rods. So you can come pretty close to vintage spec. And if you're lucky enough to find threaded rod magnets, then you're all the way there.

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    You might want to check the Telenator website and the tdpri forum. Probably not a lot of specs, but there might be some ideas on how to proceed.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Unless you're just going for the fender look, conventional humbuckers IMO are a better choice.
    Either a 49.2, or 50mm works fine at the neck and a 53mm bucker will work at the bridge.
    I just rewound a fender type humbucker that came out of a 88 american HSS strat.
    It had the bobbin wires that come out the back of the baseplate, like the WR.
    What a backward way IMO of doing things.
    I will stick to the Gibson design bobbins and baseplates whenever, and wherever possible!
    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
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    Terry

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Does anyone know where I can get bobbin dimensions for an old orginal type Wide Range Humbucker?
    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
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    Terry

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    Does anyone know where I can get bobbin dimensions for an old orginal type Wide Range Humbucker?
    T
    From my notes on Original Fender Wide Range Humbucker (WRHB)

    The physical design of the bobbins were slightly larger than a traditional Gibson humbucking. Bobbins were white as well as black. Tool mark number 010194 on each bobbin. Each coil bobbins were identical. Bobbins had a solderable tab to aid in the assembly of the hookup wire. The originals had a magnetic coupler reflector plate between the bobbin’s bottom and the baseplate.

    Targeted turns per coil is near 6700 with both plain enamel or poly 42 gauge magnet wire being used. Bobbins were wound clockwise. Typical DC resistance readings are around 10.5K ohms. Bobbin height is about 3/8”.

    Magnets were threaded CuNiFe rods. Each bobbin had 6 magnet rods only three of which were seen through the cover. Some people mistakenly believe that each bobbin had only 3 magnets...this is simply false. The reissues were not faithful to the original design, in fact they are really closer to a more traditional HB rather than the 70s WRHB but they look similar in outward appearance. Just goes to show---you can't judge a book by its cover.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Jim Darr; 05-23-2015 at 11:26 PM.
    =============================================

    Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

    Jim

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I need bobbin dimensions to update a pickup data base I'm working on.
    If someone has a bobbin, and can measure it would be greatly appreciated.
    Philadelphia Luthier has the Covers.
    Pickup Making Parts - Pickup Covers - Humbucker - Philadelphia Luthier Tools & Supplies, LLC
    Here's the dimensions of the cover.
    These have a 2 1/8" (54mm) pole spacing
    Overall dimensions are 3.125" x 1.75" x .64" (79.5mm x 44.4mm x 16.3mm)

    T
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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    I need bobbin dimensions to update a pickup data base I'm working on.
    If someone has a bobbin, and can measure it would be greatly appreciated.
    T
    If nobody has an original bobbin to measure, it shouldn't be too hard to get close by using what we do know. Overall cover 3.14" x 1.77" so take half of that, then subtract a little more (say 1/8" per) for the outer bobbin width and length. From my post and notes we know the coil height is 3/8".

    Now we need to calculate the inner core dimensions. Coil height is known at 3/8". I'm guessing that the Magnet diameter is about 3/16", so we have to allow a little more again say 1/8 " for the mold to get the width. Then all we need to consider is inner length..with about 55mm for pole spacing and again adding a little more (say again an 1/8").

    You should be close if nobody actually has a original to bobbin to measure and cares to share.
    =============================================

    Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

    Jim

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I agree, I can get close off the cover dimensions.
    I will beat on that tonight, when it gets quiet around here.
    The cover info said it was 2-1/8 inch center to center on the poles.
    When you say 3/8" bobbin height?
    Is that 3/8 between the flats?
    Or overall bobbin height.
    T
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    big_teee

    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    I agree, I can get close off the cover dimensions.
    I will beat on that tonight, when it gets quiet around here.
    The cover info said it was 2-1/8 inch center to center on the poles.
    When you say 3/8" bobbin height?
    Is that 3/8 between the flats?
    Or overall bobbin height.
    T
    By coincidence I have a bastard WRHB project underway. I like to build deviant Teles and so far have one with a Lollar Charlie Christian neck with my own 40 gauge wound bridge utilizing steel pole pieces with rare earth disk magnets. Have another with a Bigsby tremolo and 2 Lollar Gold Foil pickups. Both guitars are built from parts and play and sound nice.

    Found the Philidelphia Luthier Supply covers and was going to simply build the largest bobbins that the cover can accomodate to allow practical assembly. I don't really care about having the pickup sound like the originals or share original construction so my plan was to use qty 3, low carbon steel rods as pole pieces for each coil and make the bobbins deep with a powerful rare earth disk magnet on each pole piece. The pole pieces will not be adjustable. Currently I want to try 38 gauge on the neck and 40 gauge on the bridge. If this doesn't work I can go to 42 gauge on both pickups.

    On an earlier thread there were discusions that using only 3 pole pieces per coil would offer less humbucking but could provide different tone since less destructive cancellation of harmonic content would occur in a set of coils. Will probably build so I can add pole pieces or partial pole pieces if required.

    Will build using the standard large WRHB covers and have an inexpensive standard swamp ash body that I will route to handle the pickups.

    RM

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roundmidnight View Post
    By coincidence I have a bastard WRHB project underway. I like to build deviant Teles and so far have one with a Lollar Charlie Christian neck with my own 40 gauge wound bridge utilizing steel pole pieces with rare earth disk magnets. Have another with a Bigsby tremolo and 2 Lollar Gold Foil pickups. Both guitars are built from parts and play and sound nice.

    Found the Philidelphia Luthier Supply covers and was going to simply build the largest bobbins that the cover can accomodate to allow practical assembly. I don't really care about having the pickup sound like the originals or share original construction so my plan was to use qty 3, low carbon steel rods as pole pieces for each coil and make the bobbins deep with a powerful rare earth disk magnet on each pole piece. The pole pieces will not be adjustable. Currently I want to try 38 gauge on the neck and 40 gauge on the bridge. If this doesn't work I can go to 42 gauge on both pickups.

    On an earlier thread there were discusions that using only 3 pole pieces per coil would offer less humbucking but could provide different tone since less destructive cancellation of harmonic content would occur in a set of coils. Will probably build so I can add pole pieces or partial pole pieces if required.

    Will build using the standard large WRHB covers and have an inexpensive standard swamp ash body that I will route to handle the pickups.

    RM
    Good Luck with your project.
    I was just chasing factory bobbin specs to put in my pickup data records.
    If anyone has a Wide Range bobbin laying around, please measure it.
    T
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    Terry

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    TBH, I've not even been in the same room with an original Wide Range, so all I'm about to say is speculation in its purest state.

    Having said that, I think you should all look at the patent. It's been granted to Seth Lover.

    Once you get the bobbin's dimensions, my take is to make'em out of forbon.

    As I see it, this design is not that much more than two strat p'ups wired in series humbucking-style, enclosed in a big Faraday cage, and I don't mean it as derogatory, mind you.

    HTH,
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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    For My Records, for the time being, I went with these Core dimensions of the Wide Range Pickup.
    These dimensions would be for a plastic bobbin and rewinding info.
    If Forbon and rod magnets are used then the length and width would be less.
    Wire 42PE, and 5300DCR ohms.
    Turns is around 6600.
    Core Length= 2.40"
    Core width= 2.56"
    Core Height= .375
    Flange = .75

    T
    Last edited by big_teee; 05-24-2015 at 05:33 PM.
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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    T,

    In answer to your question, Between that flats.

    Jim
    =============================================

    Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

    Jim

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    T,

    In answer to your question, Between that flats.

    Jim
    Thanks!
    Now I'm working on the Charlie Christian Data.
    Anyone have dimensions on the CC?
    T
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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    Now I'm working on the Charlie Christian Data.
    Anyone have dimensions on the CC?
    T
    Never had an original in-hand so can't help you there...would be curious myself.
    =============================================

    Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    We get questions now and then about where and how to get parts for a wide range type pickup.
    I ran across this on amazon, and it looked interesting.
    http://www.amazon.com/Docooler-Humbu...0Z97HB7Q1BTYJ8
    You could substiture Alnico for the Ceramic magnet, if you wanted too.
    I like all the wood parts, I would probably use polyurethane, to seal all the wood parts against moisture.
    Wax potting may seal the wood and would probably accomplish the same thing?
    T
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    Member nickc35's Avatar
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    I have wound a handful of humbuckers with wooden bobbins. This particular set is ebony. Also I did a bunch of rewinds on 1960s Fender Mustang pickups. The customer wanted staggered magnets on the rewound pickup bobbins. So I replaced all the magnets and he let me keep the original Mustang magnets and I used them for this particular ebony set. Great sounding humbuckers. Very bright for a humbucker and a more true single-coil tone when split. I didn't make the bobbins myself. I'm just not a woodworker (though my father was a carpenter by trade before he was stricken with muscular dystrophy mid-life). A friend made the bobbins. This set went to Hare Guitars in California.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ebonybuckers.jpg  
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  28. #28
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickc35 View Post
    I have wound a handful of humbuckers with wooden bobbins. This particular set is ebony. Also I did a bunch of rewinds on 1960s Fender Mustang pickups. The customer wanted staggered magnets on the rewound pickup bobbins. So I replaced all the magnets and he let me keep the original Mustang magnets and I used them for this particular ebony set. Great sounding humbuckers. Very bright for a humbucker and a more true single-coil tone when split. I didn't make the bobbins myself. I'm just not a woodworker (though my father was a carpenter by trade before he was stricken with muscular dystrophy mid-life). A friend made the bobbins. This set went to Hare Guitars in California.
    With that said does the parts in the ad look like a good deal and buy?
    Thanks for the input!
    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
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    Terry

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    bobbins overall .75 wide 2.95 long .375 tall core length 2.375 X .25 wide X .25 tall taken off an original The parts phil luthier has are the ones I designed for a manufacuter of parts taken fromfrom original 70s widerange and they are very close to original- there is always some slight difference in thousandths from the drawings you make to the final product. there is also a steel inductance plate with 6 holes that fits under the bobbins. The other amazon link- those are just standard import bucker baseplates.
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    I really wanted to recreate these widerange humbuckers. I finally dove in when i saw that the threaded magnets were available. I had no sources for reflector plates, or good bobbins. Others are having them machined and some stuffing awg 42 on the reissue bobbins made in korea. I broke down and sent an original bobbin to the plastic injection mold place and for a fortune, they made a mold that spits out the original size bobbins. I have to buy a minimum of 1000 per order. lol but has made my life easier and found another builder who buys these from me to recoup my investment.

  31. #31
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Welcome Jared to the forum.
    Not sure what you are calling a reflector plate on a wide range?
    I guess that is just a metal baseplate
    Philadelphia Luthier I think sells those.
    T
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    I wouldnt call it a reflector plate because the magnets pass through it- it a steel plate under the bobbins that boosts the induction.
    I encourage people once again if you dont have an injection mould made that building a bobbin up out of pieces is quite easy and is what I did prototyping my wide range a number of years ago. Flat work for the top and bottom with an acrylic core you drill and tap out for the threaded magnets- really easy to do and its how I have made hundreds of one of a kind custom pickups and still make all my P-90s that way- tens of thousands of them by now. I preffer the P-90 bobbins made how I do it rather than how gibson does it thats why I do it, saves time on final assembly and has better strain relief. If you have a system its actually quite fast, certainly not as fast as using an injection moulded part but fast enough to still be profitable.fender-hb-2.jpg
    For those that havent seen an interior shot there it is- the bobbins are pulled apart from each other, usually you wouldnt see the interconnects and you can just barely see the edge of the inductance plate underneath and between the bobbins. The solder posts are one of the worst features SL came up with and youll see them on a couple Gibson designs too. They are super fussy about heat and will melt out of the nylon bobbin and they tend to short out against the coil or wear through the tape that was applied over them and they short against the cover- at any rate a little fussy to mess with.
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  33. #33
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Not a genuine Wide Range, but I think this would be a cool kit to build up.
    The bobbins are already built, gives the wood look.
    It is cheap, and you could sub threaded magnets, or use an Alnico bar magnet.
    It looks like a good deal, at $11.03 + $.99 shipping.
    http://www.amazon.com/Docooler-Humbu...0Z97HB7Q1BTYJ8

    61a1ziqdb2l._sy355_.jpg
    Last edited by big_teee; 11-04-2015 at 10:09 PM.
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  34. #34
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I made a WR layout using J. Lollars bobbin data.
    Thanks Jason.
    T
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screenshot-2015-11-04-15-19-54.png  
    Last edited by big_teee; 09-04-2017 at 07:35 PM.
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    Ya know, the term "reflector plate" didn't make much sense to me anyways. I had around 500 of those fabbed out. I paid a guy $30 to have them all zinced. Building your own bobbins sounds cool but its also nice to reach into a box full of bobbins ready to go. If anyone here is interested, let me know. We could work out a deal or whatnot. They are now made to accept the 10-24 in case another builder wanted to use that particular size. I personally found a great process to use the 12-32 size threaded mags without having any trouble. wr8.jpg
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