Would anybody buy flatwork?

[chevalij]

Although I'm just getting into winding (yes, another damn newbie), I've found places like Stewmac to be expensive. When I was buying wire, the company I chose told me they also make dies and punch various materials. If I could get a good forbon substitue and a set of dies made, would anybody be interested in purchasing Strat flatwork? Not sure of cost yet, but from what I calculated (read guessed)would be about $1.20 a pickup. I don't want to get a set of dies made, buy material and end up with 3000 sets of flatwork!

[kevinT]

i would be interested.

please take note...if you don't get much of a response to this inquiry, don't let that deter you....why?....because many folks come on the forum and promise parts but nothing ever materializes...folks are tired of responding

All I have to say is make em and people will buy...that is if they are high quality parts. Folks here want the good stuff....no junk.

If you decide to go forward with it, make sure you provide the vendor with a control/mechanical drawing and even request to see a prototype (you might have to pay a little for this though)...but a least you know it will be done to your specs.

[chevalij]

I realize the implications. I've read the ZAMM postings about parts that never materialized. I've already sent them a dimensioned CAD dwg of the layout for both top and bottom pieces. I should have a quote for the dies by Monday - Tuesday. From that, it will be material price. They have something that looks itentical to 70's grey in both required thicknesses. If the die cost is not limiting, I may do it regardless of interest. I would provide a free sample to those few interested, they can decide on the quality level they require from there.

[Norcal_GIT_r]

If you are going to make Grey flatwork and it's quality I'll buy from you.
Send me a PM when you are ready to sell them.

[madialex]

Of course like stated in a previous post, we have been down this road too many times and nothing at all in the end. ZAMM, I think it was dr. x or dr strangelove promised parts and I think they are still working on it but no updates is not a good sign.

You bring em, we'll buy em.....

[gilligan]

Quality will be the key!

[Zamm]

I got shot down aswell due to Allparts already purchasing from the company I was trying to work with.

[corduroyew]

If it's any good I'll buy from you too.

[Possum]

Well Z asked for recommendations for specific parts we would be willing to buy and there was no answer. I think if you got nickel silver tele covers they would sell since no one is selling them anymore from Korea. I know the japanese are still making them. Tele base plates better than stewmac I would also buy, so there's two things that would sell. Stuff like bucker parts gets tricky because there's different pole spreads and not everyone wants the same thing.

Yeah we'd probably all buy flatwork from you but flatwork isn't all the same. LIke Guitar Jones tele baseplates don't fit american bridges, some tele neck flatwork has indentations cut in for the bend over tabs, which I hate. Some flatwork I've seen on guitar jones bobbins has the hole for the leads too close to the coil so your leads bump into the cover if you wind a coil that has any fatness at all.

So you'd be taking a risk no matter how you look at it. I don't think your quote is going to be cheap, but would like to know what they quote.

[chevalij]

Originally Posted by Possum

Yeah we'd probably all buy flatwork from you but flatwork isn't all the same. LIke Guitar Jones tele baseplates don't fit american bridges, some tele neck flatwork has indentations cut in for the bend over tabs, which I hate. Some flatwork I've seen on guitar jones bobbins has the hole for the leads too close to the coil so your leads bump into the cover if you wind a coil that has any fatness at all.

So you'd be taking a risk no matter how you look at it. I don't think your quote is going to be cheap, but would like to know what they quote.

I gave a drawing based on the Stewmac strat flatwork. I was promised a quote Today or tomorrow. I hope it's tomorrow cause today is gone! Based on the design, I think it will have to be a two stage punch. one for the outer shape, one for the holes. I will keep you posted. If they come back with a quote over $600 for the dies, I will probably bail.

[NightWinder]

Your right in the ball park, think right around 7. One draw too,possibly. Depends who makes it.

[Possum]

I bet its going to be alot over $600...
I do know that DiMarzio's old supplier did them in two different punches....

[DoctorX]

About $3000.00 per punch for the simpler designs. That's $3000.00 for a strat top forbon punch and die, and $3000.00 for a strat bottom forbon punch and die.

Now, consider J bass, P bass, tele neck (top and bottom) tele bridge (top and bottom), etc. etc.

Gets a little expensive.

Doctor X

P.S. I forgot to add...these prices are on the cheap side, because I knew the tool and die maker. The price is usually closer to $5000.00 PER punch and die combo. Add in the cost of the forbon sheet (to you, not to the tool and die co.) and the price per punched part. Which changes as you go from 1,000 to 5,000, to 10,000 piece runs (it gets cheaper the more you order -- like anything else).

And we haven't even talked about injection mold prices yet. Try around $10,000.00 per mold for starters. How many different pieces are injection molded?

(Ka-ching!!)

DiMarzio's tool and die guy was a small outfit a few miles away from the shop. In the beginning, he pieced his humbucking bobbins together out of God knows what before he had his first injection molds made. He paid the bill for that one on installments. The market took care of the rest in short order.

[madialex]

Originally Posted by DoctorX

About $3000.00 per punch for the simpler designs. That's $3000.00 for a strat top forbon punch and die, and $3000.00 for a strat bottom forbon punch and die.

Now, consider J bass, P bass, tele neck (top and bottom) tele bridge (top and bottom), etc. etc.

Gets a little expensive.

Doctor X

Hey Doctor X, wasn't it you getting parts made? Hows that coming along?

[chevalij]

So, $6000 for a set of dies... Oh well, that's what the gold Amex is for Could also pay for my funeral when the wife see's the bill. Still haven't seen a quote from my supposed "supplier". Gonna have to call tomorrow and find out what's up. They had to send the quote out to a jobber shop.

[kevinT]

wait and see what kind of price they come up with. ...I think that is a little high.


I got a price for vintage style base plates. tooling = $700 or $800 (can't exactly remember) and 250 base plates for about $1,800 which ain't too bad IMO.

[DoctorX]

The $3000.00 price per punch / die combo may seem excessive. BUT....since the tool and die guy made the tooling, he also repairs and maintains the punches and dies when they break or wear out. That has to be figured into the price. You "own" the tooling, but the tool and die shop designed it to specifically run on their presses. Time and materials have a cost and have to be accounted for.

What if you decide to order only 50 baseplates that month? Where does the T&D shop make its money if he charged you very little for the tooling? Even if he has CNC, and can make tooling quickly, expect to pay for setup and programming charges, material charges (tool steel), etc. Someone has to pay for the CNC equipment. Some of that cost is passed on to you.

Going overseas to get your tooling? It may be cheaper, but you *may* run into different issues -- hidden costs, time zone differences, minimum piece order, part design testing and approval issues, shipping, customs, letters of credit, wars, embargoes, shortages, etc, etc.

On the other hand, your next door neighbor could be a retired T&D guy who can knock out some killer tooling for you and not charge you much. You might have that option, too...


Please let us know how much your punches and dies would cost to have made. I mentioned before I was quoted the $3000.00 per figure as a personal favor. I don't want to know who...just what you were quoted.

Thx,

Doctor X

[chevalij]

I don't expect it to be dirt cheap. And if you figure an average shop charging anywhere from $60 - $145 an hour for engineering time, your price isn't out of the question. I have done a number of quotes on jobs (I do a fair amount of project management work) and I know how much labor can cost. Being that I only want to punch a fiber, I dont' think took steel is required. Stainless maybe. The block itself will be cheap, it's the guide pins, sleeves etc. that will be pricey as far as raw material goes. When I get the quote, I'll let you know. I have no problem sharing info.

[chevalij]

Additional note. When I first when to this shop, they took a SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) of a few hundred bucks. I doubled it to get to $600.

[chevalij]

I heard back from the vendor I was attempting to get a set of dies from, they said
"am not getting anything back from my supplier. I am going to have to no quote this job. I apologize for the amount of time it cost you. These two parts are very small and need special tooling to punch."

So, it looks like I'll have to try elsewhere. It can't be that friggin hard to make a punch for such a simple design, can it?

[DoctorX]

Originally Posted by chevalij

I heard back from the vendor I was attempting to get a set of dies from, they said
"am not getting anything back from my supplier. I am going to have to no quote this job. I apologize for the amount of time it cost you. These two parts are very small and need special tooling to punch."

So, it looks like I'll have to try elsewhere. It can't be that friggin hard to make a punch for such a simple design, can it?

The punch and die concept is pretty straight forward. Further, for some tool and die shops, it is as easy as falling off a log.

You are dealing with "little guy" vs "tool and die shop with costs and overhead".

What you have to take into account is how many parts you expect to have made, and how often (i.e. 3000 pcs per month for instance). It won't necessarily pay for you to have tooling made, and have 100 - 500 pairs of flatwork made every so often. You have to be able to purchase large amounts of finished product over time to make it worth the T&D shop's time to mount the die set, set up the punch press and pay someone to punch out material. Towards the end of a particular tool and die shop's existence, the shop assistants didn't take the time to properly setup and / or monitor the punch press, as we found BAGS of rejects never sent to the East Coast Pickup Manufacturer I alluded to in the past (we also found barrels of rejected injection molded parts ready for regrinding and reuse - complete waste of time and energy). This time and energy need to be factored in. The more professional the shop, the more the likelihood they will add the "waste" factor into the price. If you are purchasing 10,000 pcs over 6 months, that's another story -- they will probably fall over themselves helping you out. The punches and dies are made from tool steel, heat treated and ground to the right dimensions to properly punch the forbon to make exactly the right size hole / shape without binding. This is after the die design is completed, tested and run to get approval of the part production, among other things.

Aside from the more common O1, D2,and A2 tool steels, some of the more exotic sintered tool steel goes for 30 dollars a pound -- that's 30 as in 'thirty'. I checked because I was lucky enough to get some bricks of it at a surplus sale. The owner didn't quite know what he had, and I snatched it up. For a forbon punch, A2, O1 or D2 is plenty good, and more available for much cheaper money.

Why do you think the big guys aren't worried about the little pickup makers? When good parts become as plentiful, and available to everyone, then folks will become a little more concerned, both big and not so big. The problem for them becomes not when there is 10 or 20 small pickup makers, it's when there are 100 - 300 or more smaller pickup makers making similar products.

Take a look at Harmony Central and count up how many pickup makers are listed. Go ahead. The last time I looked a couple of years ago, there were about 168. That included BIG, not-so-big, medium, small and microscopic.

Keep digging, you may luck out and find a retired guy, or some shop who will take the job. You should deal with the tool and die shops directly, and not through a vendor. It could very well be that he won't make much money from your work as a middleman, so instead of shopping it around, he knows it isn't worth his time so he just says no. Remember he wants to get his cut, too.

I don't know where you are, but look in the Business to Business yellow pages, if your town has one. You will also have to take time off work (if you have a day job) to talk to the tool and die shop to agree on the finished result before production begins.

Doctor X

[chevalij]

I really didn't think this would be that complicated. For one, I'm not punching steel base plates etc. so I thought a steel rule die would work. They're used for cutting cardboard, foam etc. But that was only one vendor so far. It's easy to send emails and I already have the CAD layout done. I'll keep plugging away until someone give in, or I do. To make matters worse, the stupid Stew Mac catalog showed up in the mail today.....

[DoctorX]

Originally Posted by chevalij

I really didn't think this would be that complicated. For one, I'm not punching steel base plates etc. so I thought a steel rule die would work. They're used for cutting cardboard, foam etc. But that was only one vendor so far. It's easy to send emails and I already have the CAD layout done. I'll keep plugging away until someone give in, or I do. To make matters worse, the stupid Stew Mac catalog showed up in the mail today.....

Forbon is very tough in some respects, soft in others. A Whitney 91 ten ton bench punch press will cut through the thicker forbon very easily. I have done it. The problem there is making or getting the punches made to do the job. This is where learning about punches and dies comes in. The reason you pay big money to a tool and die shop is beacuse you are paying for their expertise, so you don't have to figure out all of the small details yourself. There are plenty: material tensile strength, material shear strength, punch and die clearances, material thickness, material composition, tonnage required to cut material, alloy types, progressive dies, slug removal, die design, finger stops, part yield / sheet of forbon, cost per unit / unit of time, etc. etc, blah blah blah.

In the end, you would be getting a bargain anyway if you farm out the work to a shop, because of the time you would save.

Doctor X

[chevalij]

Well DoctorX, you seem to know a hell of a lot about tool and die! Care to quote on a punch set for flatwork? And what really pisses me off, is my brother used to own a tool and die shop in Windsor Ont. before he moved to China. Actually, it was a fixture and gauge shop, but close enough.

[DoctorX]

Originally Posted by chevalij

Well DoctorX, you seem to know a hell of a lot about tool and die! Care to quote on a punch set for flatwork? And what really pisses me off, is my brother used to own a tool and die shop in Windsor Ont. before he moved to China. Actually, it was a fixture and gauge shop, but close enough.

You might want to contact him. If he still does this kind of work, maybe he can make the tooling for you. At the very least, he can advise you further. If he has contacts in Ontario, maybe he can hook you up with a T&D shop that will do the work for a big discount. Is Windsor near Detroit? Should be lots of T&D shops there....

Doctor X

[NightWinder]

Thats abserd?! Never heard that type of pricing for cookie cutters~ This guy is obviously very experienced...and values his time. Furthermore....How many will it pop out in one hit? Reading your post, One at a time? Thats not logical/.

[NightWinder]

Yes, Windsor is right across the bridge. You did however forget to mention the fact that the guy milling is reaching anywhere between $28-40 maybe 50 per hour. But for simply punching forbon.....Buy a book, or a handy pair of shears....this shits not that hard. Baseplates and the almighty nightmare of punching covers is another story. Detroit? Thats all thats here is shops and stamping plants....

[chevalij]

I could cut them by hand, they're not a complicated shape. It's just that I thought if I could get a set of dies made and could cut 100 an hour, life would be easier. I also figured there are probalby quite a few people doing it by hand. If I got a set of dies made and sold some flatwork, it would offset the cost of the dies. I'm not giving up on this, just might take some time to find a small shop that won't want the moon for something so simple.

[myfoot]

It'd be nice if they had an apprentice they could give it to. Wouldn't be to hard and he'd get some experience and you may get a break. I used to work in a large factory that had it's own machine shop and there is a hell of a difference between how fast one can go and how fast the other can.

[chevalij]

Got a quote back on a Steel rule die. Now, this will only cut the outer shape of both top and bottom at once, not punch all the holes. But, how does $132 grab ya? I think it's dirt cheap and will probably go for it.

[NightWinder]

MAybe they will make another to cut the holes for a reasonable price too.

[chevalij]

The shop is about 1/2 hour from my place, so I'm going to see them tomorrow with a sample of the material I intend to use. It's a gray vulcanized paper product, very similar to forbon. It seems to drill and sand very nicely. While I'm there, I'll show them all the drawings I've done and see what they say.

[Possum]

This is a blade type cutter, I'm guessing it won't last real long since it will get dulled after use, it will only work as long as its sharp, I wonder if they can be sharpened?

[chevalij]

Originally Posted by Possum

This is a blade type cutter, I'm guessing it won't last real long since it will get dulled after use, it will only work as long as its sharp, I wonder if they can be sharpened?

I went down and saw the die folks today. Nice guy, owns his own shop, wife is the receptionist. Little dog to named Ebony running around. Nice little family business. After showing him a cad dwg of the complete set of flatwork, he figures he can make a set of dies that will punch everything except the screw holes and the center holes (too small for a steel rule die).

I brought along a pieice of the material I want to cut, he figures no problem. So, I then asked if he thought a two ton arbor press would cut it. He's not sure, but he shows me a small stamping press in the back of his shop and tells me I can come in and use it when I need to! He figures I should get around 10,000 hits before any work needs to be done. Nope, can't sharpen. They replace the knives at about 60% of original die cost.

It's gonna be more with the rod holes, but a set should be about $600.

[chevalij]

This hasn't died (no pun intended) I got a quote for dies. Top die $200, bottom $221. I've ordered the top die to see how it will work out. Main reason is I have a good size sample of the 0.062 material. Should be ready Monday. Anybody still interested, or am I on my own?