Wow, this looks pretty damn innovative!

[SK66]

http://www.agi-lace.com/electric_pic...tone_specs.php

[Mystic]

sounds like a bunch of psycobable on the web site though. Whats important is what it sounds like. HAve you tried one? It looks nice. It's a unique idea (magnets on top)

[Chicago]

Those few who tried them on the "FDP" got over them "pretty fast" and pulled them out.

[David Schwab]

I heard a recording on some website doing a review... and also there was a review in Guitar Player of a guitar with these in it.

It was very bright and clean. Not very warm sounding. Guitar Player didn't seem to like them.. saying they were on the harsh side.

They look very cool though!

This reminds me of a phenomenon that effects me, and probably others... I see some new pickup, and read about it, and think, damn, that sounds cool and innovative... I must have one! (or figure out to make one)... then I actually hear the pickup, and think.. that's it?

On the other hand, Q-Tuners are innovative and sounds pretty good too!

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Mystic

sounds like a bunch of psycobable on the web site though. Whats important is what it sounds like. HAve you tried one? It looks nice. It's a unique idea (magnets on top)

It's a freaky pickup. It's just a bent piece of aluminum with slots cut into it with a water jet. The magnets induce a current to flow in the aluminum (aka eddy currents)... sort of like a ribbon mic.

(this is the patent drawing from a transensor pickup)

[Chicago]

Too bad It started out on the wrong foot incorporating a very poor design from the 50’s
IE. A flat ceramic bar magnet style design that place's the ceramic magnet directly under the strings.

Intonation is LOST!

[DrStrangelove]

It's a single loop coil (current mode, they called it) fed into a step-up auto-transformer. If it's like other Transensors, the magnets aren't very strong, either.
-drh
--

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Chicago

...A flat ceramic bar magnet style design that place's the ceramic magnet directly under the strings.

Intonation is LOST!

That's how Alembic pickup pickups are made too. No intonation problems.

Those are rubber magnets on the Alumitone ... I think 6 alnico rods will pull the strings more.

[Chicago]

-Those are not "rubber'
-It uses two real ceramic bar's
-The pickup totally sucks.
-And even if it did not suck, it still will not intonate.

Innovative or just looks?
IMHO it's like the guy in the $200.000.00 sports car, he's compensating for a "lack of".

In the Alumitone's case it's tone and adjustability

[Rob S]

Originally Posted by SK66

http://www.agi-lace.com/electric_pic...tone_specs.php

I can't stop looking at them. Works of are they are.

[David Schwab]

[Rob S]

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Chicago

Too bad It started out on the wrong foot incorporating a very poor design from the 50’s
IE. A flat ceramic bar magnet style design that place's the ceramic magnet directly under the strings.

Intonation is LOST!

One of the features listed is:

"Less magnetic string pull eradicating pickup pitch warble and increasing string life"

It doesn't sound like you actually tried these, have you?

Here's an actual review.

Lace Alumitone Pickups

[Chicago]

YO, DS

Hey fellow pup maker, do you understand you have just called me a liar here?

sorry it's came to this~~~~~~~~~~` gheesh!

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Chicago

YO, DS

Hey fellow pup maker, do you understand you have just called me a liar here?

Lier? I did nothing of the kind. I said you are incorrect. You are stating that putting a ceramic bar magnet under the strings will lead to intonation problems, and that's not true at all. Alembic makes all their pickups that way... no intonation problems. I've made some pickups with ceramic bar magnets as the coil core... no intonation problems. And having a big ceramic magnet with steel poles is the same thing... look at something like a Duncan Invader... no intonation problems. Oh and rubberized magnets are "real" ceramic magnets. Rickenbacker and Lace use them all the time.

Let's be honest here... three Strat pickups with a total of 18 alnico magnets under the strings exerts a lot more string pull... and only causes warbling problems if you have the pickups VERY close to the strings. Two ceramic magnets wont do such a thing.

If you are having intonation problems, it's due to some other factor. If you want someone to take your post seriously, why don't you reply with some detailed information on why those pickups "wont intonate" (not that you can intonate a pickup anyway...) I've been repairing and building guitars since 1971, and I have yet to see a pickup with magnets so strong as to cause tuning problems. Even stratitus doesn't effect tuning... just makes the notes warble.

So sorry, I don't buy it. Nothing personal.

[Chicago]

"Honestly Speaking",
We did the test on the Alumitone,
(I do not think I said anything about Alembec.)

The Alumitones two bar magnets would literally pull a "loose E String" right out of our hands at a distance of a 1/2" away.

As soon as you raise the pups up to where they would sound "OK" the intonation was lost.

Putting a full ceramic bar up 1/8" to 3/32" right smack under the strings is asking for a world of trouble. When the little round heads on the AlNiCo 5 Slugs are already know to be bad enough, whoever in the heck think's that a ceramic bar is going to do less damage is not looking at the whole picture here, or the tuning meter for that matter, they need to raise the pickup's up into the needed field and watch what happens then. Your adding almost twice the pull at the same distance a AlNiCo which already has problems with Stratitus..

If your adding steel or covers or anything to reduce the gauss then its OK. but and exposed ceramic bar directly placed under the strings at 1/8" to 3/32" is going to be a problem.

There’s no laws or industry standards in the USA, that prevent flawed deigns from being marketed.
A few things are bound to slip through the cracks and get loaded into hundreds of guitars.

There's enough new players (who do not know better) to support almost any product you want to distribute these days.

Intonation? What’s that? Never heard of it!

Thanks for replying DS,
You’re a nice enough person, I'm sorry we did not understand one another earlier.

CT

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Chicago

"Honestly Speaking",
We did the test on the Alumitone,
(I do not think I said anything about Alembec.)

No, you didn't mention Alembic, but you inferred that putting a ceramic magnet directly under the strings will cause intonation problems. My contention is it will not. There's no evidence to back up your claim, and a lot of existing pickups made with ferrites that don't exhibit intonation problems. There are even pickups using very strong rare earth magnets...

I used Alembic as an example, because that's precisely how their pickups are constructed. It's a ceramic bar magnet glued between two sheets of copper clad PCB, with the wire wound directly on the magnet. So the ceramic magnet is sitting right under the strings. It's a pretty wide magnet too.

EMG also use ceramic magnets and advise to adjust the pickup as close to the strings as possible.

It doesn't cause intonation problems... so why would the Alumitone?

As soon as you raise the pups up to where they would sound "OK" the intonation was lost.

What gauge strings were they... 8's? I put a link in one post with a review of the Alumitones. They had THREE on a S style guitar... He didn't report intonation problems.

How about these reviews on Harmony Central? Five reviews... four gave them a "10" and one was a "9".

I don't read anyone griping about intonation. In fact these reviews are so positive, that I'm dying to try these things myself.

Putting a full ceramic bar up 1/8" to 3/32" right smack under the strings is asking for a world of trouble. When the little round heads on the AlNiCo 5 Slugs are already know to be bad enough, whoever in the heck think's that a ceramic bar is going to do less damage is not looking at the whole picture here, or the tuning meter for that matter, they need to raise the pickup's up into the needed field and watch what happens then. Your adding almost twice the pull at the same distance a AlNiCo which already has problems with Stratitus..

Twice the string pull? According to what data? Ceramics are generally weaker in attraction (remanence) but stronger in coercivity than Alnicos.

I've made pickups with two ceramic bar magnets used for blade pole pieces... I didn't have a problem. The alnico magnets in three strat pickups are stronger than a ceramic bar magnet. Also Fender uses two ceramic magnets in the steel poled Strat pickups.

If your adding steel or covers or anything to reduce the gauss then its OK. but and exposed ceramic bar directly placed under the strings at 1/8" to 3/32" is going to be a problem.

Adding steel poles does not "reduce the gauss." Steel conducts magnetism. Adding steel increases the permeability of the magnetic circuit, and increases the inductance of the coil. Plus in the case of a humbucker, you have the two rows of poles both attached to the magnet. My bass pickup has 4 ceramic magnets conducting to 10 3/16 steel poles.

So a humbucker like a Duncan Invader, with the big screw caps and big ceramic magnet has more of a chance of adversely affecting the vibration of the strings, and yet, it doesn't happen. Another one is the DiMarzio X2N... wide-bar steel pole pieces and a big honkin' ceramic bar magnet.

Covers on the other hand will effect the magnetic field to some degree, and also cause some high end loss due to eddy currents.

There’s no laws or industry standards in the USA, that prevent flawed deigns from being marketed.
A few things are bound to slip through the cracks and get loaded into hundreds of guitars.

One person's flawed design is another person's gem. One could say that Strat pickups are flawed, since they have too strong a magnetic pull, and they hum. In a modern market they wouldn't have lasted a year.

These days, if a product isn't any good, it wont last in the market place. Let's take PJ Marx as one example.

Guitar player recently did a review of a hand made guitar that had Alumitone pickups. They liked the guitar, but they thought the pickups were too bright, and maybe a little harsh sounding. They did not report any intonation problems, they said the guitar played in tune nicely... and they are more than a little thorough with their reviews. And as I said, they didn't care for the pickups, so they weren't being kind with the review.

The fact that no one else has reported intonation problems with these pickups leads one to believe it's not a wide spread problem.

You didn't like the pickups... that's fine. I haven't heard one myself, so I have no opinion. But I do know that putting a ceramic magnet under the strings wont make them go out of tune, and you have not presented any evidence to the contrary.

I'm not arguing with you, I just don't agree.

[Chicago]

“When Horse’s fly and meters lie!”

Sorry, David
I honestly feel you have too much at stake here and you need to defend your pups and the other brands that need pulled off the market as far as I am concerned, your long winded replies confirmed that theory. I need not read the thread.

You want proof?

Please learn how to use a meter to look for these magnetic field problems and proof you will see my friend.

Or how about you take a loose E string and gently position it over a ceramic bar.

The time it’s already took you to set at your PC and try to defend this totally flawed pickup design,
You could have run these tests!
I know It would have been much less then the time you have already spent here trying to run the conversation to your favor, and this obvious attempt to cover up your own products defects and anyone else's similar designs.

I’m sick of this whole mentality and cover up horse carp that goes on in this industry, you may have picked the wrong guy here to try to baffle?

Nothing personal, but I’ll believe you and the others out there in the sea of denial. when “Horse’s fly and meters lie!”

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Chicago

Sorry, David
I honestly feel you have too much at stake here and you need to defend your pups and the other brands that need pulled off the market as far as I am concerned, your long winded replies confirmed that theory. I need not read the thread.

Too much at stake? Defend MY pickups... why on earth would I have to defend my pickups... we weren't even discussing my pickups, except I mentioned I used ceramic magnets... along with many other pickup makers. There's nothing wrong with my pickups.

Of course you wont read the thread, because at no point have you substantiated anything you said.

You want proof?

Yes, I do. When are you going to supply some?

Please learn how to use a meter to look for these magnetic field problems and proof you will see my friend.

You talk in circles. What does looking at a magnetic field have to do with hearing intonation problems? Nothing really.

I know how to read test equipment... I worked in the electronics field 25 years ago.

Or how about you take a loose E string and gently position it over a ceramic bar.

Duh! It's a metal string and a magnet! And if you position a loose E string above an alnico magnet? it does the same thing...

What does that prove? Nothing.

The time it’s already took you to set at your PC and try to defend this totally flawed pickup design,
You could have run these tests!

You could take some time and work on your grammar and spelling... but ok.. let's see... I was set at my PC... I don't use a PC by the way...

So... in that time I could go out to a store, buy an Alumitone pickup (assuming I want to spend $127 to test a pickup), install it in the guitar, and see if it pulls the strings out of tune. All that in 5 minutes, huh? Wow. Cool. You put your foot in your mouth on that one!

So explain how it's flawed. You haven't done that yet. I'm waiting for that. If you are going to say something stupid like it has a ceramic magnet under the strings... So what? A LOT of pickups use ceramic magnets, and guess what... no problems. Ceramic magnets are not two times stronger than alnico. You make sweeping generalization on how it's a "very poor" design from the 50's.

You know what's flawed? Your logic.

A flat ceramic bar magnet style design that place's the ceramic magnet directly under the strings.

Yeah, and so? How about the Ric horseshoe pickup... that placed the strings INSIDE the magnet.

I know It would have been much less then the time you have already spent here trying to run the conversation to your favor, and this obvious attempt to cover up your own products defects and anyone else's similar designs.

Listen.. you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. You said a number of things that were clearly incorrect, which leads me to the conclusion that you know little about pickups and magnets. I was stating some facts... but I'm covering up my products? Yeah, ok. I guess we all need to use noting but alnico, right? You better tell that to EMG, Bartolini, Fender, Gibson, Duncan, Dimarzio...

I pointed out a few reviews where no one said there was intonation problems.. including Guitar Player. You know something they don't I surmise?

I’m sick of this whole mentality and cover up horse carp that goes on in this industry, you may have picked the wrong guy here to try to baffle?

What's your mentality? You don't like something, and everyone must agree with you? Who are you? Then you must try to add credence to your views with some imaginary empirical data. Everyone has an opinion. I respect that you don't like those pickups and think it's a bad design. But if you are going to claim problems that no one else seems to be having... back up your claims. You have not done that yet.

I'm not trying to baffle anyone.. substantiate your claims. I'd love to see some data on your tests... only I doubt there is any. I have no interest in these pickups besides the fact that they look interesting, insofar that they are unlike anything made to date.

So what do you think is a good pickup... the other 50 year old designs?



Yeah, that's it. No one try anything new! let's all make strat pickups... Yawn....

Nothing personal, but I’ll believe you and the others out there in the sea of denial. when “Horse’s fly and meters lie!”

First, that sentence made no sense. Me and "the others" ... oh oh, everyone is ganging up on you! And what am I in denial about? Not a thing. Did you supply any data? No. No one agrees with you, so you have to have "proof" ... test are only as good as the testing method. And we don't even know that you tested anything. You don't seem to know much about magnets... but you did tests? So what was the gauss reading on those magnets?

OK.. here's my bass pickup, 4 ceramic magnets and all. No intonation problems what so ever. The bass is a bit out of tune, but that's because I didn't take the time to tune it before I recorded this... and that's not an intonation problem. The pickup is about a 1/16 under the strings. You notice there's no warbling, right?

SGD Bass pickup

So let's see some of your non flawed designs...

You must be the guy that came on the old forum and said ceramic makes bad sounding pickups.

[Zhangliqun]

I think a lot depends on how strong these little ceramics are.

Maybe they are very thin in which case they're just not going to have as much pull as a full-size 2.5" x 0.5" x 0.125" bucker bar ceramic. Maybe they are partially degaussed for this application. There's just too much we don't know about this design and it seems odd to me that Lace or any other winder worth their salt would be unaware of string-pull issues with a magnet so close to the string.

Then again, if Chicago is hearing the Strat-itis warble with these pickups, then that's what he's hearing. And it does seem strange that the magnets would be on top of the pickup instead of on the bottom.

In other words, for me the jury is still out...

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

I think a lot depends on how strong these little ceramics are.

Maybe they are very thin in which case they're just not going to have as much pull as a full-size 2.5" x 0.5" x 0.125" bucker bar ceramic. Maybe they are partially degaussed for this application. There's just too much we don't know about this design and it seems odd to me that Lace or any other winder worth their salt would be unaware of string-pull issues with a magnet so close to the string.

Then again, if Chicago is hearing the Strat-itis warble with these pickups, then that's what he's hearing. And it does seem strange that the magnets would be on top of the pickup instead of on the bottom.

In other words, for me the jury is still out...

The magnets are actually in the middle of the coil. The aluminum part you see is the coil. It's a single turn coil. The original Transensor pickups had a single turn of 18 awg copper.

Back at the old forum, Dr. Strangelove said "The filled in area between the loops was originally a bonded magnetic material akin to refrigerator seals."

I have not seen any of these in person, but Lace uses flexible magnets in some of their other pickups. Rickenbacker uses a big rubberized ceramic magnet under the treble pickup on a 4003 bass. So they aren't unheard of in pickups.

Lace claims the magnets are low power. I'm not sure you can degauss a ceramic magnet... not easily anyway. They have very high coercivity, so they are hard to demagnetize. This is partly why they sound different from alnicos.. they have a "hard" magnetic field, while alnicos are a bit "softer" which is probably why alnicos have that "sag" in their tone.

Ceramics are not all that strong really... not much more than alnico. You just usually see larger ceramic magnets. My objection was to the premise that using any ceramic magnet will cause problems... and that's total nonsense. None of the reviews I have read on these pickups stated any problems with stratitus. And they had three of the suckers under the strings.

I think the real issue was getting the pickup way too close to the strings.

[madialex]

I have a set of strat pickups with the bar mag along the bottom and the steel slugs, I can set this set closer to the strings and still get little to no stratitus, a regular set of alnico ploe pickups and the stratitus is worse by about 70%. I just checked 2 ceramic bars and 2 alnico 5 bars, the alnico bars to me had a stronger pull when pulling them apart than the ceramic did. Also the alnico bars repeled harder than did the ceramics. Yes ceramic is magnetically or coersive or whatever than alnico but the attraction of the alnico seems way more than the alnico to me. Just my opinion.
If you argue this point you will get this

[SK66]

Unless I'm mistaken, magnetic pull CANNOT affect intonation. Pickups have nothing to do with intonation. Intonation is the length of a string between nut/saddle and frets/saddle...if magnetic pull is causing the string to "sag" enough to affect this, you certainly are not tuned up to pitch. It CAN cause issues such as "stratitus" (and difficulty in setting the intonation I guess) but it is not as simple as magnetic "strength" that causes this. Of greater significance is the shape and orientation of the field. A wide field with a low peak due to a "quick return" can have LESS string pull even if the magnet is actually "stronger" than another magnet with a concentrated field and a high peak. A wide/short magnet will have a lower wider field than a narrow/tall magnet for any given "strength". Ceramics in and of themselves are not "bad", and Alnico's are not necessarily "good" for any given application. The overall design and construction must take everything into consideration and apply "what works best" for the desired results.
There are certainly "bad designs", and more certainly designs which are "bad for you", but it's not simply because of the type of magnet used.

[David Schwab]

Here's an interesting quote from EMG's catalog (italics added for emphasis):

The first choice in design is the string interface. The selection of a bar magnet or individual pole pieces is an important one. All initial EMG designs used a bar magnet for two reasons. Pole pieces place too much magnetism under the strings and cause the lower ones (primarily low E, A, and D) to go "out of pitch" with a Doppler effect. This is especially true of the Fender Stratocaster* where 3 poles under each of the strings push and pull them through a variety of unnatural movements. Poles can also make intonation and tuning difficult. On the other hand, pole pieces have the benefit of a percussive attack giving the pickup much more of a "plucky" sound.

STRING INTERFACE Designs featuring a bar magnet have a much more linear (balanced) output from string to string. Its attack is less pronounced than the pole piece design resulting in smoother distortion, and much better sustain. String bending is smoother because the output doesn't fade when you bend strings. By relying on the internal preamp for gain the bar magnet can also be smaller, further limiting the magnetic "pull" on the strings.

Most EMG Pickups use a magnetic bar. Single coil pickups are available in both bar and pole-piece designs. There are fewer negative attributes to the bar and it's preferable, but if you like pole-pieces for your playing style then there is an EMG model for you.

Incidentally, the "plucky" nature of rod pole pieces is due to the shape. If they were square (as in older Bartolini designs) you wouldn't get that sound. Bartolini also used parallelogram shaped poles, and some designs had a flat metal bar on top of the magnets. This was to shape the flux lines.

So I think we can all move past the "ceramic bar magnet under the strings is a no-no" now!

[Rob S]

Here's a little experiment to try which illustrates the issues raised here and will make it obvious that *any* sufficiently strong magnet placed near a vibrating steel string (particularly the most magnetic low E) will cause trouble...

Capo the 12th fret. Take your neodymium magnet (one of your alnico magnetising ones) and hold it near say, the 20th fret and pluck the string.

Listen to the 'stratitus'. Look at your tuner giving up.

Wonder why there's not enough adjustment to set intonation (try it if you dare).

The magnet creates a sort of floating anchor point on the string a bit like a string harmonograph. A weak magnet will still do this - it's just a question of degree.


Rob.
(dodges bullets, but pass that over here)

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Rob S

The magnet creates a sort of floating anchor point on the string a bit like a string harmonograph. A weak magnet will still do this - it's just a question of degree.


Rob.
(dodges bullets, but pass that over here)

Oh I'm sure all magnets affect the string... if not the pickups wouldn't work!

But, yes, a question of degree.

BTW, I can't read your posts without hearing Groucho's voice reading them...

[Rob S]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

BTW, I can't read your posts without hearing Groucho's voice reading them...

You'll have to speak to my secretary about that

http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...1&d=1150402770

[Zhangliqun]

Originally Posted by madialex

I have a set of strat pickups with the bar mag along the bottom and the steel slugs, I can set this set closer to the strings and still get little to no stratitus, a regular set of alnico ploe pickups and the stratitus is worse by about 70%.

The problem with your analysis is that the alnico magnets themselves are right there at the strings while the ceramics are way down below. Traditional humbucker pickups won't give you stratitis either, again because the magnets are at the bottom of the pickup rather than a 1/4" or less from the strings. I guarantee you that if you had ceramic rod magnets (don't even know if there is such a thing) instead of Alnico rods in your pickups, you would get at least as much stratitis with the ceramics.

Originally Posted by guy

Just my opinion.
If you argue this point you will get this

There are different grades of ceramic as well as Alnico, and some grades of Alnico are as strong or stronger than your typical ceramic pickup magnet. Alnico 8 is right there with ceramic. I assume Alnico 9 is even stronger but have never tried it.

Blast away...

[David Schwab]

Here's something interesting... the guy who invented the Lace Transensor pickups, is named Villen Khanagov. This is the same person who runs Villex pickups, the ones used in the Chapman Stick.

I guess he has a something new... his passive pickups are said to be as powerful as active, and they have a "passive magnetic mid range circuit" controlled by 50 K pot.

[Rob S]

Have a look at this... what's it coming to eh?

http://www.harmosmusic.com/EG/indexEG.htm

[pupoholic]

http://applausecasttestone.podomatic...15_47_36-07_00




What a damaging interview to post online for the general public to hear.

I have lost all respect for them.

[Mark Hammer]

Might I suggest that the mystery ingredient here is the string gauge? Indeed, no one has said anything about it, and as near as I can tell, it can be pretty darn important in terms of whether ANY magnet, regardless of composition, can exert enough of a tug on the string to alter its pitch.

If David is talking about bass strings, and "Chicago" is talking about a .008 E-string and .010 B-string, then maybe they are both right.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Mark Hammer

Might I suggest that the mystery ingredient here is the string gauge? Indeed, no one has said anything about it, and as near as I can tell, it can be pretty darn important in terms of whether ANY magnet, regardless of composition, can exert enough of a tug on the string to alter its pitch.

If David is talking about bass strings, and "Chicago" is talking about a .008 E-string and .010 B-string, then maybe they are both right.

Yeah I asked back in this thread "What gauge strings were they... 8's?"

Yes, I'm talking about bass strings, but they still warble with too much magnetism under them.

I'm using less magnets in my pickups now... I made one with one larger magnet, and it sounds great... saves on magnets too!

[ken]

I read somewhere that using a weak magnetic field mcould possibly make a more dynamic pickup, due to lack of 'string pull' effects . Maybe we can try moving in a whole new direction, using the absolute minimum of magnetic material so as not to destroy string vibration?

What a concept...

Ken

[Sweetfinger]

FWIW this thread inspired me to do some experimentin'! I've known for years that pickups with strong magnets can choke sustain, cause warbling, and even pull strings flat if adjusted too close. I go through my day accepting these things as gospel truth, but was inspired just now, so I jumped to the bench and plugged the trusty Strat into the ol' Peterson strobe tuner.

I grabbed a ceramic bar magnet off the fridge(Its former residence was some foreign made humbucker) and stuck that puppy right up to the G string.(.017) I was able to pull the string flat by about 15 cents! What about the real world? since it has been a long time since I saw a pickup with the big ol' endox bar on top-right next to the strings, I tried my test again, with a stock Mex-Strat pickup. I wasn't able to get more than a couple cents pull at the closest from the strat pickup, but certainly that's enough to sour your day..

Next, I tried a Pacific-rim made humbucker dug out of the used pickup box. I was able to pull the string 10 cents flat, and I have on several occasions seen customers guitars with the pickups adjusted just THAT close.

I always enjoyed using a strobe tuner to show folks the effects of adjusting their pickups too close. You can actually see the fundamental and lower harmonics pull flat, and if you retune the string, the upper harmonics were then sharp. That'll put the hurt on ya! I also fondly recall an encounter with a particular used Strat in a local guitar store many years ago:
Some enterprising visionary had crammed FOUR distortion style humbuckers in between the heel of the neck and the bridge! It certainly had a big burly sound.....for about two seconds, after which the cumulative string pull of the eight coils would render your strums impotent.

In my old age, I've become a fan of lower output pickups with weaker magnets, with any needed brute force being applied with a clean(or not so clean) pre-amp.