Advice needed about Ebay sale I did

[Regis]

Hi Guys,

I need some advice on this one. I sold my Quad Reverb on ebay last week, the one I had reverted to the AB763 Twin circuit.

It was working fine when I shipped it, (UPS, they packed it). I had pulled the tubes and individually bubble wrapped them for shipment, taped inside the cab.
When it arrived the guy said there was something wrong with it: No volume until about 4 on the volume control, very low output, fuzzy, crappy tone.

I had him swap the tubes around and a couple of other tests but it's hard to do PD over the internet.

My problem now is what to do? I stated in the ad no refunds or returns, but that was for an amp that functioned. I know it worked when I shipped it, but I don't want this guy to get screwed either. On the other had I don't want to get screwed myself. I'm sure I could fix it if I had the amp here.

Should I:
Have him return the amp and refund his money?
Make it his problem and make him keep it?
Have him ship it back and fix it for him, then ship it back to him?

It must have been damaged in shipping. It was insured, and I'll call UPS about it, but that's a big can of worms I don't want to get into if I can help it.

The best thing I can come up with to be honorable is to refund his money if he pays the return shipping which would be $120. One thing I won't do is lose money on this deal. I can then repair the amp and resell it.

I want to do the right thing but just don't know what that is.

What do you suggest?

[bob p]

Let me get this straight -- you shipped a working amp, and it was packaged by UPS to their own standards, and they shipped it. You paid separate fees for packaging and for shipping, and UPS assumed responsibility for BOTH packing safely, and for transporting without damage. While it was under their custody and control, it was transposed from working condition into non-working condition. This seems to be 100% a shipper's problem. Immediately file a claim with UPS.

I hate to see these sorts of problems come up, so I won't ship anything fragile via UPS. I mean, NOTHING. I always use a different shipper like DHL or FedEx. As a rule they're much gentler in how your packages are treated. (I hate to say it, but shipping a combo amp via UPS is a really bad thing to do. Anyone who ships a heavy combo amp via UPS is just begging for this kind of problem when the amp falls off of the conveyor belt.)

Back to your responsibilities -- as a seller, it is your responsibility to assume 100% of the blame for things that are your fault, and 0% of the blame for things that are not your fault. You need to be fair to everyone involved in this transaction, including yourself. If your listing was inaccurate, you owe the buyer a 100% refund, including shipping both ways. OTOH, if your description was accurate and UPS killed the amp, then you should not consider indemnifying UPS from their responsibility not to damage the amp in transit. Its not your job to cover the loss, or to even issue a refund, which would involve you taking the risk of repairing the amp and then reselling it.

If you are 100% honest that you shipped a working amp, and it was in the condition that you described it to be in when shipped, then its your responsibility to assist the buyer in filing the claim with UPS. Its not your job to step into UPS' position and take their responsibility for damaging the amp. Having paid UPS to package the item to their own standards, and having paid for insurance against damage, its time to file a claim.

Here's what I would do:

1. IMMEDIATELY file a claim for damage with UPS. Every day you wait means less chance of recovery.

2. Work cooperatively with your buyer. Have the buyer take the amp to a repair shop and have it examined by a technician. Ask the technician to prepare an affidavit that documents that the damage likely occurred in transit. File the affidavit with your UPS claim.

3. Next time, sell your amp with local pickup only.

Perhaps if you included a link to your auction listing we could review it and see if any other conditions or guarantees might have been offered or implied.

If you need to read something to cheer you up about UPS, read this.

[Marc]

Regis,
I think Bob has given you the best advice for a UPS situation. I also do not ship via UPS, ever. Keep notes and names and document every conversation you have with UPS. A friend of mine had a Wurly distroed by UPS and had to really fight to get the 'insurance' to cover the repair. The only thing brown does is make it hard to scrape off your shoe once you've stepped in their lobby.

Best of Luck!

Marc

[Regis]

Marc, Bob, thanks for the replies.

Bob, I will go to the UPS store this afternoon and file a claim. I know it will be a serious hassle, as I have never heard of anyone having a good experience with getting satisfaction from Big Brown. I just wanted to avoid that.

I'll run it by the buyer and see how he feels about getting the amp into a repair shop.

I did the best I could in describing the amp, and it worked when I shipped it.

Here is the listing.

[bob p]

I wouldn't screw around too much with UPS. Play hard ball with them and they will have to take you seriously. Let them know that you mean business and that you are not about to let them screw you, and that you will use whatever means are necessary to recover compensation for the damages they caused. But don't use the word "lawsuit." Not yet, anyway.

Get all of your documentation together as if you were going to file a claim against them in small claims court. Then, when you have all of the documentation, send it with a cover letter that tells them that if the claim is not paid in full by a reasonable deadline that you specify, you will exercise your legal rights to seek compensation for breech of contract under their packing and insurance contracts. That will get your claim kicked up to someone in management. Be careful, as the clerks are probably trained to stop talking to you once you mention a lawsuit.

If your amp was insured for $600 and it costs you $75 to file against UPS, you file your small claims suit for $600 plus the cost of the action. If you need help with the forms the clerks at the court will help you. To dismiss the claim, UPS will have to show up with a check for $675, or they will have to send one of their lawyers to the court to do battle with you. Guess which method is more expensive to them.

There's a dirty little secret in the insurance industry that the corporations don't want you to know -- that they try to play hardball with customers by screwing them out of insurance payments, and that smart customers file lawsuits against them in small claims. I learned this the hard way, by filing a lawsuit against Progressive for a vehicle claim. When I threatened to file a lawsuit against them, one of the adjustors told me that they have to write checks to dismiss lawsuits over claims like mine all the time. Its their normal modus opperandi to shortchange you on a claim -- they EXPECT that they will be able to screw most people, who would rather be screwed than go to court. They know that most people won't go to the trouble. They know that they will only have to pay the full amount of the claim if you file against them, and they always write the check at the last minute on the courthouse steps to avoid going to trial. The small claims system exists to protect you from this kind of exploitation. Use it.

One more thing -- Your evidence packet should include photos of your amp (before & after), all of your receipts, a copy of their insurance policy, a copy of their packing standards, and a receipt that shows that THEY took responsibility for packing the amp. It should also include the threads from Ampage where we've talked about your amp, which establish that it was in good working order prior to shipment.

Let us know how it goes.

[Slobrain]

Fellas,
I had to file a claim against UPS for shipping damage that they did an a peavey 2x12 combo tube amp I had shipped to another state to a Ebay bidder. When the amp got there the amp wasn't working.

I had the bidder save the packing material and at first UPS said claim closed and no compensation for the damage withing the first 24 hours. I kept calling back and kept them on this case.

It took me two monthes to get them to pay a $150.00 repair bill and and yes I did mention taking them to court to finally get them to pay up. It was a very frusterating mess after all was said and done.

You need to take pictures of the gear you ship before you ship it to show good condition to use just in case this kind of problem happens.

I hope the best of luck to you on this as theyt do play hard ball on claims.


SLO

[DanJ]

Regis,

All of the above advice is very good, but, I have to bring up the question of the buyer. I have several hundred positive transactions on fleabay. I have also encountered the occasional scammer. I once shipped an amp only to have the buyer say it did not work when he received it. I tried to make it right and offer either a refund, or pay to get it fixed. The buyer requested the money to get it fixed, but when I requested a detailed estimate for the cost, I suddenly lost all contact with him. There was no negative feedback left for either side. Best I can tell is the he was just fishing for a rebate on his purchase.

I hate to be negative, but since it hasn't been brought up I figured I would throw it out there. Again my overall experience with on line auctions has been good, but unfortunately there is the occasional bad apple out there. I hope everything works out well for both you and the buyer.

DanJ

[Regis]

I went to the UPS store where I shipped the amp today and started the process to file a claim. Even the girl that worked there said it was a pain in the ass.

I don't think this buyer is trying to scam me, he hasn't mentioned anything about a refund, I think both of us are afraid to bring it up.

I told him to take the amp to a repair shop, but my hopes are small. He lives in a tiny little town in North Carolina that is miles from anyplace.

[Rob Mercure]

Regis,

Where in NC - I travel to Asheville often and am fairly close to the NW end of NC.

Rob

[Regis]

someplace called Robbins, between Raleigh and Charlotte.

[Slobrain]

Regis,
Definitely have this guy take the amp to a repair shop as UPS will need a repair quote to even consider paying a repair. I think they would rather pay a repair than for a whole amp.

This is what I had to do when I had the same thing happen to my Ebay amp shipment. The guy took it to a repair shop but had them fix it when I clearly explained to ONLY get a quote. Needless to say make that clear to the buyer so he understands what to do. The rest of the advice above is excellent.

Sometimes these things just happen so don't let it get under your skin and chalk it up as one of the old sayings (S%$t happens)

I'm sure with persistence UPS will pay for the repair. Just hang in there.

BTW, sorry about the slopping typing on the previous post as I was typing while eating lunch

Cheers

Slobrain

[Brad1]

There is one other obvious possibility that nobody has mentioned. It may not even be UPS' fault...not that I'm defending them....(I've seen them in action).

If you're going to have someone else look at the thing, be certain that they inspect it for "operator error", or possibly an innocent problem that may not have been previously noticed that just popped up. Huh?

I'm sure most of you amp techs can pretty much diagnose things to these distinctions.

You said you shipped it with the tubes removed. How do you know the buyer didn't bend a pin or damage a socket or something in his excitement to reinstall and crank'er up? How do you know he didn't do something else goofy? Do you know his level of competence and knowledge about these things?

Make sure the amp tech inspects it for something that could have been caused by a guy doing something stupid after he received it. Also, did the buyer provide any proof of damage, like a crushed box picture? (Not that he couldn't have taken a sledgehammer to it to make it look damaged).

Of course, also, you said you had worked on it. Not to question your skills, but none of us are perfect. Could it have simply been a cold-solder joint that exhibited no problem until the amp was bounced around through shipping? Yeah, UPS is rough on things, and they are the perfect testing facility for reliabilty and road-worthiness . Could it even have been an old ORIGINAL connection that gave out...one that you had never touched? Could happen. If that is the case, the buyer might even be a bit more understanding and agreeable to terms. Things happen to old amps. He'll know you weren't trying to scam him.

There are other possibilities besides assuming that "UPS did it again!" May well turn out that they did. You have to know first, though.

Make sure the amp tech inspects it for all these possibilities. That will lead to the logical course of action about who is responsible. Whatever the findings, the right thing to do would be for whoever is responsible to accept it, and rectify the situation.

Jumping to conclusions and slinging accusations only make things worse, and more difficult to remedy. It sounds like you are fair-minded and willing to do the right thing, if necessary. But, you also shouldn't roll over if it wasn't your fault. It's only fair.

Just my 2 cents,

Brad1

[Regis]

"You said you shipped it with the tubes removed. How do you know the buyer didn't bend a pin or damage a socket or something in his excitement to reinstall and crank'er up? How do you know he didn't do something else goofy? Do you know his level of competence and knowledge about these things?"

I did gently ask him if he was sure the tubes were inserted correctly, no bent pins, etc. He said yes. He doesn't seem to be a techy kind of guy. You are correct in your comments, Brad, and all or some of it may be true, I just won't know until someone with tech skills looks at the amp. A couple of people have mentioned that he may be trying to scam me, but I don't get that impression. He hasn't mentioned a refund, and it seems he has been trying the tests I have given him to figure out what is wrong with the amp.

Here is the text of the last email I sent to him:

I went to the UPS store today where I shipped the amp and started the process to file a damage claim. Everything I've heard about this says it's a painful and tedious process but it must be done. The amp worked when I shipped it and didn't when it arrived, so it must be UPS who is responsible. They said they would call me Thursday with the information.

I need you to take the amp to a competent repair shop and get it diagnosed and fixed. I am sure it is something simple. I know I could figure it out if I had the amp here, but I am 350 miles away and I can't fix it over the internet. When you get that info, let me know so I can press the claim against UPS. I need the repairmans report to show UPS how much they owe. The amp was insured for $1000.

I'm sorry about this, and wouldn't blame you if you got upset. I have left good feedback on Ebay for you because you held up your end of the bargain. I did too, because the amp worked when I shipped it.

I have attached the layout and schematic for the amp to this email for you to give to the repairman. Remember, it's a Blackface Twin Reverb now and not a Silverface Quad. If they have any questions give them my email so they can make contact with me.

And, just for one more test, if you didn't swap the power tubes from your friends HRD, maybe you could try that.

Pull ALL the power tubes from the Quad, and put the two 6L6's from the HRD in either the two OUTSIDE or two INSIDE power tube sockets of the Quad. Chances are it won't make any difference because if it was a power tube the amp would be blowing fuses, but it's worth a try.

Also try that speaker test I mentioned in an earlier email.

Regis

[tbryanh]

Physical damage to the amp is not mentioned, so it seems that the amp and the box it was shipped in show no signs of physical damage.

This tends to indicate UPS is off the hook, but if you push hard enough, UPS will probably pay a small repair estimate anyway.

I am pretty sure FOB shipping means the buyer becomes the owner as soon as UPS recieves the item from you. If UPS damaged it, then it would be an issue between the buyer and UPS unless you specified an unconditional refund or something like that.

Of course, enforcing the FOB rule with the customer usually does not make them happy.

If UPS does not pay, and the repair bill is small, maybe $150, you might offer to split the bill with the customer.

[Regis]

Here is the guys reply to my email:

Regis,
It will probably be Monday before I can take it to get it fixed. I still
have the box, etc. Thank you so much for your help. I hate that you have
had to go to so much trouble. I'll bet it was dropped sometime during
transit. I'll let you know when i find out something. Thanks again, xxxxxx


We'll see what happens.

[Rob Mercure]

Hey Regis,

Too bad your buyer is in the Piedmont - I try and stay in the mountains myself <grin> - or I'd be willing to take a look at it for you if it were around Asheville. I'm not sure what your customer's driving distance is - nor whether one can hit UPS up for mileage to take the amp for an estimate ( but this sounds reasonable to me) - but speaking about Asheville "The Amp Shop" has a good reputation among area musicians and my initial impression when I visited the shop was that it was well managed if perhaps a bit over booked.

Rob

[Marc]

Regis,

Robbins is not far from Asheboro and I think there is a shop there. It's also not too far from Chapel Hill / Carrboro. The Music Loft in Carrboro (919-968-4411) has a tech working out of it. He had his shop in house until recently, but still checks in weekly. He's an authorized Fender service tech, Darrell Young wefixamps@aol.com Tell him I sent you. If he's into a little farther drive, I live in Durham.
Keep us posted on the progress!

Marc

[bob p]

Originally Posted by tbryanh

Physical damage to the amp is not mentioned, so it seems that the amp and the box it was shipped in show no signs of physical damage.

This tends to indicate UPS is off the hook, but if you push hard enough, UPS will probably pay a small repair estimate anyway.

I wouldn't doubt that someone at UPS would try to use the argument that if a box shows no signs of external damage, then its impossible for any internal damage to exist. We all know that's wishful thinking on the shipper's part, as concealed damage is not at all uncommon when electronic devices get broken.

Shippers are likely to use this sort of "logic" to deter their customers from filing legal claims, because most people are gullible enough to believe it when they're told that they lose in the transaction. The key to remember in a situation like this is that the adversary is lying to you in order to con you into standing down.

Sure, the defect in the amp could be something as simple as a solder joint that went bad during shipping, but even if the problem is something that simple, whether or not the amp was an old, vintage amp is a moot point. The amp was in perfect working order before it was accepted by UPS, and UPS was paid a fee to accept responsibility for adequate packaging and transportation without damage. Any damage that occurs between the point of Regis' delivery to UPS (UPS acceptance) and arrival at the customer's location (UPS delivery) is damage that occurs while the parcel is under UPS direct custody and control. Such damage is directly attributable to UPS, regardless of whether or not there are external signs of damage to the package.

The legal term for this sort of responsibility is bailment.

Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law. Merriam-Webster, Inc. 08 Jul. 2007.

"bailment" - the transfer of possession but not ownership of personal property (as goods) for a limited time or specified purpose (as transportation) such that the individual or business entity taking possession is liable to some extent for loss or damage to the property

NOTE: The typical elements of a bailment are delivery of the personal property, acceptance of the delivery, and possession or control of the property. Any of these elements may be actual or constructive. Bailments may be created by contracts, either express or implied, which require agreement, and the agreement may also be express or implied. Contracts for the lease of a car, for sale of goods on consignment, and for the transport of goods are examples of bailments.

If damage occurred while the package was under UPS' custody and control, then this is clearly a bailment issue, and UPS must live up to the terms of the written shipping agreement and pay for damages. If they refuse to do so, they are in breech of their agreement, and Regis can recover damages from them. The key to succeeding in this sort of case is to adequately document all of the requisite conditions to establish that a bailment agreement existed, and to conclusively prove the amount of damages that were actually incurred. This is an open and shut case that depends entirely upon the quality of documentation presented, and it shouldn't take more than a few minutes at the bench.

Regis, if you have to present your case to small claims, you need to prove two things: 1) that a bailment agreement existed, and 2) that you suffered actual damages that are easily quantifiable. For the first part, you need your UPS documents. For the second part, you need an actual repair bill, not an estimate. Good luck.

[tbryanh]

Originally Posted by bob p

Any damage that occurs between UPS acceptance and arrival at the customer's location is damage that occurs while the parcel is under UPS direct custody and control. Such damage is directly attributable to UPS, regardless of whether or not there are external signs of damage to the package.

I do not think it is correct to say that any damage that occurs while UPS has custody is UPS’s liability.

It must be shown that UPS breached their duty of reasonable care and were negligent in some way so as to cause damage to the item. In this situation, it appears the only way to show negligence is by examining the shipping container and the item for physical damage.

If the vibrations of UPS’s trucks caused the item to fail, I do not believe UPS would be liable. It is reasonable for UPS to ship the item in their trucks, and it is reasonable for their trucks to vibrate.

[Regis]

Originally Posted by Marc

Regis,

Robbins is not far from Asheboro and I think there is a shop there. It's also not too far from Chapel Hill / Carrboro. The Music Loft in Carrboro (919-968-4411) has a tech working out of it. He had his shop in house until recently, but still checks in weekly. He's an authorized Fender service tech, Darrell Young wefixamps@aol.com Tell him I sent you. If he's into a little farther drive, I live in Durham.
Keep us posted on the progress!

Marc

Thanks Marc,

I'll pass this along.

I will let everyone know what happens, thanks for all the comments from everyone.

regis

[bob p]

Originally Posted by tbryanh

I do not think it is correct to say that any damage that occurs while UPS has custody is UPS’s liability.

It must be shown that UPS breached their duty of reasonable care and were negligent in some way so as to cause damage to the item.

That is true if and only if the bailment contract specifically contains such language to discharge them from responsibility under the terms you cited. (To be fair, bailment responsibilities vary from state to state, so for Regis' sake its best to interpret the bailment agreement under the laws in the state where the agreement originated -- where the item was shipped).

If the vibrations of UPS’s trucks caused the item to fail, I do not believe UPS would be liable. It is reasonable for UPS to ship the item in their trucks, and it is reasonable for their trucks to vibrate.

Nope. You're talking about two different types of torts. This is not a question of whether someone committed an act of willful and wanton negligence and broke their fiduciary responsibility. Its an insurance claim, and the purpose of insurance is to provide reimbursement in instances when no breach of fiduciary responsibility took place, and property is packed and shipped according to an agreed standard, yet it is damgaged in spite of being shipped using usual and customary methods. Proof of negligence is not required to collect on an insurance claim -- only proof of a contractual agreement and actual loss is required.

You sure sound like the UPS manager who tries to obfuscate the issue in order to get the customer to give up, so that UPS can keep his money. Why do you keep telling Regis to give up?

You may have a different legal opinion on this than I do, and I will admit that I am no legal expert, so I will not pursue this topic any farther. But my track record is that I have never failed to collect full reimbursement from UPS when I've taken them to court, and I've done it more than once.

[tbryanh]

Originally Posted by bob p

Its an insurance claim, and the purpose of insurance is to provide reimbursement in instances when no breach of fiduciary responsibility took place, and property is packed and shipped according to an agreed standard, yet it is damgaged in spite of being shipped using usual and customary methods.

I have not heard of this. Are you writing the law as you go?

Given the circumstances, I would not try to collect from UPS. Other people are free to do what they want.

[tbryanh]

Originally Posted by tbryanh

Its an insurance claim, and the purpose of insurance is to provide reimbursement in instances when no breach of fiduciary responsibility took place, and property is packed and shipped according to an agreed standard, yet it is damgaged in spite of being shipped using usual and customary methods.

I suppose Regis could read us what the insurance policy says.

[Regis]

Well, here is the finale, a bit of an anticlimax.

The repair guy found that it was a loose resistor under the cap can. The charge was $70, and I split it with the guy and told him our business was done. It may have been a bad solder job on my part, I don't know. I do know I replaced those resistors when I did the mods on the amp.

UPS actually sent a guy to pick up the amp, without telling me or the buyer. I called them and asked why and they said that was their policy, they had to evaluate the item for the insurance claim. The amp was in the repair shop and even if it wasn't I wouldn't have given it to them. It was easier to just split the repair cost with the buyer and be done with it, and tell UPS to go to hell.

Thanks for everyones input.

[kldguitar]

Don't use UPS, it is very bad company, Many amps of us damaged by UPS, they deal with your package like shit crude, Please use DHL.

[HardRockHenry]

Shame on you for using ups . File a claim