insulation type

[Rosewood]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if the type of insulation was more important than the build thickness. I have Jason's book, 2nd edition I think, in which he states he did not believe the insulation type made much difference. I hope I have that right, anyway to me it would seem to be the build thickness as the most important of the two. I mean wouldn't poly the same thickness as formvar sound the same?

[David Schwab]

I also don't believe the type of insulation has much of an effect, but the thickness (build) does. A thicker build spaces the wire farther apart.

[Possum]

build will have more effect than insulation type but insulation type does have an effect and I'm sure some others will chime in on this. Plain enamel and poly do sound different, PE sounds more dry/organic/vintage while poly sounds more modern/splashy/rock. I've only used formvar in heavy build so its hard to say what single sounds like versus the others.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Possum

build will have more effect than insulation type but insulation type does have an effect and I'm sure some others will chime in on this. Plain enamel and poly do sound different, PE sounds more dry/organic/vintage while poly sounds more modern/splashy/rock. I've only used formvar in heavy build so its hard to say what single sounds like versus the others.

You know I was going to post "ask Dave... " I knew you would have an answer. I have no experience winding with a bunch of insulator types.

This brings us back to the "dielectric dispersion" mentioned in the thread on the tube-o-lator lacquer. I started reading that article, and found another interesting reference here where the inventor is talking about a "dispersive delay line" that splits the full band audio signal into it's various frequencies, as a prism does with white light:

(from the first article)

As long as the light beam is in the air, all spektrum colours move with identical velocity. After the entrance into the prism this is no longer valid because glass is a dispersive medium. The red light portion has now a different velocity from the blue one and therefore it comes to a "split" of the light beam into its components, the rainbow colours. Similar things happen when complex music signals run through a dielectric material.

For the audio wave guides, the inventor wrote:

The material should have a lower electric conductivity than conventional conductors; the constructed prototypes are made of brass. This type of material was taken to increase the skin deep of the physical skin effect.

So there's another reference to brass as it would affect the tone of a pickup.

This would also validate the whole "skin effect" in the audio frequency range, which is what Monster Cable has been saying all these years.

[NightWinder]

It absolutly does make a difference. PE wins everytime (in my opinion). I have countless Hrs of R&D.....Its a fact. Schwab has been resisting the notion almost every time, and has never agreed in this (shhhh, He's a bassplayer that plays guitar). The best thing you can do is wind 2 pickups and compare. Better yet- RECORD 10 second clips and compare

[Rosewood]

I don't know that it really matters but could you measure the difference some way or would it be one of those "it just is" kinda things?

[NightWinder]

I'm working on it...You can definately hear the difference. If I made 2 pickups with the same gauge/build....one of each, PE wins every time!! Had it not, I'd gladly save my money? Pricing is much more

[Rosewood]

About a year ago I was thinking about winding some really small round coils to keep it simple (and cheap) and to make it easier to keep the coils similar but I never decided on a good way to test them. Is any of the major guitar companys like gibson still using PE? If they are there must be something to it because profit is usually the bottom line and they would use the cheapest.

[Spence]

It's pointless re-hashing this topic. I am a believer in coatings having their own effect on tone to a small extent. It's that small extent that makes the difference.
The answer to your question Rosewood is suck it and see. Make your own informed decision and don't be bullied into accepting someone else's opinion.

[PoorMan]

I always find myself agreeing with Spence.

I'm a relative noob and I've read there is no difference, there is a difference but you won't hear it when the band starts playing, and that there is a major difference...all from different reputable winders. I suspect there might be other factors/components that come into play that might enhance or degrade tonal differences between different insulations. That is to say, there might be a major difference between SPN and PE in Nightwinder's pickups, but not Dave Schwab's based on other tangible and intangible factors. We all have different ears too.

But (as Spence suggests) ultimately you should wind two pickups as similar as possible, with all the same components (save the different insulations) and make that decision for yourself. I haven't done so myself, but I have every intention to.

[NightWinder]

+1 on that recommendation. Also, Spence usually posts answers only once....so read his posts carefully, take it and run like the dickens!!

[Rosewood]

Got it.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

It absolutly does make a difference. PE wins everytime (in my opinion). I have countless Hrs of R&D.....Its a fact. Schwab has been resisting the notion almost every time, and has never agreed in this (shhhh, He's a bassplayer that plays guitar). The best thing you can do is wind 2 pickups and compare. Better yet- RECORD 10 second clips and compare

Well for the record I've only had experience with poly coated wire. Youknow sometimes it's easy to think about insulators and think "it's just an insulator".

Peter Baxandall basically said the same thing.

Now clearly you can hear differences in things. I can hear a difference in one pickup when you flip the phase. But I couldn't even describe that. So I think some stuff is heard by some ears and not others.

For years I defended Monster cables on the BottomLine mailing list because I could hear the difference, while others couldn't. Recently I retired my 20 year old Monster cable because it was getting microphonic, and bought a "regular" high quality cable... and I can't hear a difference.

So with something like magnet wire insulation, I'll read up on it, and some people seem to hear a difference, while others don't.

Logically it wouldn't make sense for it to sound different just from an insulator stand point. You would think it would have to involve a change in capacitance or something.

Then I stop and think about it and I agree that different materials could probably affect the tone. But since we don't know why, it's hard to validate.

For instance, after revisiting the "Tube-O-Lator lacquer" thing, Dave's response made me stop and think about it... so I started reading a few more web sites and now I actually found an explanation of why that would work.

So heck, if wax can change the tone of a pickup, why not graphite on the top of a plastic IC case?

I sure don't know everything, and I think way too much!

Oh and I started on drums, then guitar, and then bass. So I've been playing guitar slightly longer...

But I'm not a guitar player that plays bass, or a bass player that plays guitar...

[NightWinder]

Your too cool : )
Nothing wrong with getting the thinker thinking, I just have some serious insomia over Gear in general. Pickups Consumes my thoughts. However, you should take the plunge and get some PE, I believe you'd hear it.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Rosewood

I don't know that it really matters but could you measure the difference some way or would it be one of those "it just is" kinda things?

Ah, there's the rub, as they say. You can't measure something that you don't know about. That's the entire conundrum about science... science is all about the tangible, which can be measured. But if you don't know what quality you are looking for, where do you look? You couldn't test for X-Rays if you didn't know they existed for example. And how would you know? You can't see them. The scientific method can verify that a statement is true based on the observable evidence that a thing exists. But what if we don't know how to observe something? Then we also have the whole Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that certain measurements reduce the accuracy of other measurements. See where this is going?

When you start reading enough esoteric audiophile stuff, many times they say you have to "grease your ears"; once you accept that there is an improvement in the audio system, based on some new device, you will start to hear it. So you must believe it's real. (and some of these ideas are things like "plain piece of blue paper under any vase of flowers or any pot plant in the listening room" and "aligning the slots in all screw heads so that the slots are parallel to the earth's surface.") Where do we draw the line?

This is why discoveries are always made by accident, because if you don't know something exists, you can't find it!

I'm heavily into metaphysics, so I should be the first one to say that reality is less ridged than we usually believe.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

Your too cool : )
Nothing wrong with getting the thinker thinking, I just have some serious insomia over Gear in general. Pickups Consumes my thoughts. However, you should take the plunge and get some PE, I believe you'd hear it.

Well thanks!

All my recent pickup experience has mostly revolved around one particular pickup design, and it's variations, and I used the wire sold by Stew-Mac because I wasn't ready to buy a boat load of wire, if I didn't know what I wanted!

I got good results with that gauge and insulator. I'd love to try other gauges and insulators, but that involves buying a bulk of wire I might not use. Yet.

I left my day gig to get back into building basses, so the R&D budget is a bit tight ... Now I'm actually going through the wire makers catalogs.

So I listen to you guys. I see smaller rolls on eBay sometimes of various gauges and coatings. I'll have to take the plunge and try some.

[NightWinder]

Just get a 5lb spool. Ask for the smallest. Sometimes they have their head screwed on right. In the meantime, heres some Eyecandy for you David. A custom Bass, and my newest snag : )

[corduroyew]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

So I listen to you guys. I see smaller rolls on eBay sometimes of various gauges and coatings. I'll have to take the plunge and try some.

Most of the PE on ebay is really just black poly so you have to contact the seller and ask them questions about it. I'm told that the only company still making real PE is MWS.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by corduroyew

Most of the PE on ebay is really just black poly so you have to contact the seller and ask them questions about it. I'm told that the only company still making real PE is MWS.

Yeah I was referring to different gauges and stuff. I had heard that MWS is the only one making PE.

So many different combinations to try out...

[Rosewood]

I'm always thinking that unless you can wind two identical coils, identical in every way, then how do you know what different insulations are doing for tone.
Unless, the change is so great it overcomes the slight differences in coils. If I think about it long enough my head will explode, so I'll try some PE and formvar if it's available.

[Dave Kerr]

I wonder if any difference in tone arising from different insulation type might be due to a difference in the coefficient of friction between the materials? A smoother coating would be slightly more microphonic, and the difference more evident in unpotted coils.

[PoorMan]

Originally Posted by Rosewood

I'm always thinking that unless you can wind two identical coils, identical in every way, then how do you know what different insulations are doing for tone.
Unless, the change is so great it overcomes the slight differences in coils. If I think about it long enough my head will explode, so I'll try some PE and formvar if it's available.

Well, with handwinding it's impossible to wind the coils exactly the same. You just have to do your best. Although it's not a perfect method of comparison, there really isn't a better way to do it.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by corduroyew

Most of the PE on ebay is really just black poly so you have to contact the seller and ask them questions about it. I'm told that the only company still making real PE is MWS.

Just curious...what questions do you ask besides who manufactured it? Thanks.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

Just get a 5lb spool. Ask for the smallest. Sometimes they have their head screwed on right. In the meantime, heres some Eyecandy for you David. A custom Bass, and my newest snag : )

Sweet Axes!!!! I like the color of the Les Paul...I was looking at a Hamer Standard USA model similar to that in orange...

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

Just get a 5lb spool. Ask for the smallest. Sometimes they have their head screwed on right. In the meantime, heres some Eyecandy for you David. A custom Bass, and my newest snag : )

Oh.. forgot to comment on these!

That's a pretty Paul. I like the bass. Reminds me of a Karl Thomson. Is that purpleheart in there? I use a lot of purpleheart.

What, no pickups?

[NightWinder]

Thanks. I thought David may like it. It is purple heart- Don't breath the dust, its highly poisonous!! The other is a Gary More Gibby, Been actually paying on it from a local collector....I tryed to coarse him into some trades, but had to dish out about $400.00 cash and a few trades. took me a while, but I like to pay all at once. He's a fairly rich fella, so he worked with me : )
the Thread: David- If you don't like what you hear....I'll buy the rest of the spool. I think many would here too(but i offered first!!) No biggy. I really want ya to try it. SHit, If I had a fairly empty spool, I'd send it to you. I'm not to much into reinventing the wheel, and I use alot of Half sizes, and different insultaion builds, but the common 42 awg is a must. 43 too for that matter too. Try to let them know that you are "trying" the new insulation type (MWS, although I have another spot too!) you may get a 3.5 lb or something. Just a thought

[corduroyew]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Just curious...what questions do you ask besides who manufactured it? Thanks.

Typically you don't need to ask any more than that but I usually ask if it's oleoresinous enamel. Most of the guys selling the stuff on ebay don't know, a few of them have told me that they thought it was just black poly.

1 guy told me it was oleoresinous enamel and gave me a brand name that wasn't MWS so I asked him how old it was. I then took the information back to the maker and didn't get any responce. So perhaps it was NOS PE but I don't really know. Unfortunatly magnet wire manufacterers aren't speedy quick when answering questions from guys like me.

[madialex]

cant explain a lot of things going on in a pickup. I have a pretty good ear for the most part.

I use PE, formvar and Poly and each has their own distinct tone. PE versus Poly, well to me Poly has a more wet tone to it where as PE has a dry type tone. Formvar is like the 2 combined with a smoother feel but very nice highs and lows. Just My .02 cents worth.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by corduroyew

Typically you don't need to ask any more than that but I usually ask if it's oleoresinous enamel. Most of the guys selling the stuff on ebay don't know, a few of them have told me that they thought it was just black poly.

1 guy told me it was oleoresinous enamel and gave me a brand name that wasn't MWS so I asked him how old it was. I then took the information back to the maker and didn't get any response. So perhaps it was NOS PE but I don't really know. Unfortunatly magnet wire manufacturers aren't speedy quick when answering questions from guys like me.

If one has a sample of the wire, I bet one can tell the insulation types apart by smelling the smoke. This works pretty well for plastics, though I haven't yet tried it with magnet wire. The main thing would be to use a flame that has no or very little smell of its own, so the little puff of smoke from a wire put into the flame isn't masked. An alcohol lamp would work, as would a gas flame. Candles and matches would not.

[DrStrangelove]

.wysiwyg { background-attachment: scroll; background-repeat: repeat; background-position: 0% 0%; background-color: #f5f5ff; background-image: none; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal } p { margin: 0px; }Coupla thoughts:

The insulations differ in friction and dielectric constant.

A slicker insulation will pack*winds*more tightly.

A higher dielectric constant = more instrinsic capacitance = lower resonant freq.

MWS Wire's catalog lists the dielectric constants of insulation on page 11.
...all except for plain enamel.

The poly-nylon and polyurethanes have the highest dielectric constant.
Does anyone have experience with them?

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[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by madialex

cant explain a lot of things going on in a pickup. I have a pretty good ear for the most part.

That's the important part. Knowing what's going on is great, but most of the time we don't know exactly, but we can build experience with materials and know how the results sound.

Originally Posted by madialex

I use PE, formvar and Poly and each has their own distinct tone. PE versus Poly, well to me Poly has a more wet tone to it where as PE has a dry type tone. Formvar is like the 2 combined with a smoother feel but very nice highs and lows. Just My .02 cents worth.

OK, I've only used poly, but I can hear the wet tone. I love that in my bass neck pickups. I like a dryer tone for the bridge, so maybe I'll pickup some PE to try out.

I've heard several people use the same analogies, so I have to accept that's how each wires sounds.

I'm still finding it fascinating that with the same insulator, I can get very different sounds going to different gauge wires.

I have some 36 gauge I'm going to mess with... Les Paul Recording pickups anyone?

[NightWinder]

Oleoresinous is Plain Enamel. Many don't know that. Why so technical. Of the 2 names, I would refer to Plain Enamel.....A little more commonly known

[madialex]

He hangs out at the TDPRI, a godforsaken place where all the people for the most part are snobs except for a select few, mainly the ones who hang here. His name there is rockin carl, he was winding pickups and was trying to see if he was still winding and how he was getting on. If you are here speak up Bro.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

Oleoresinous is Plain Enamel. Many don't know that. Why so technical. Of the 2 names, I would refer to Plain Enamel.....A little more commonly known

Ah... so it's spar varnish. Real enamel would have to be fired.

If you look up "enameled wire" it says "Enameled wire is a thin wire coated with an insulating layer, used in electric motor coils. The core material is copper, coated with a thin layer of a polyurethane, polyamide, polyester etc resin - the so-called 'enamel'."

So.. enameled wire can have a poly coating... what we know as "plain enamel" is oil based varnish. That makes sense. So that would be the reason to ask for oleoresin.

[EtLa]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

Yeah I was referring to different gauges and stuff. I had heard that MWS is the only one making PE.

So many different combinations to try out...

looking at the stamp, the PE magnet wire from MWS that I have is made by Rea