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Thread: Impact of neck pickup on electric guitar tone

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    Impact of neck pickup on electric guitar tone

    I've occasionally heard that Esquires and Les Paul juniors sound better (although I realise that better is a subjective term!) than Telecasters and LP Standards etc., and that this might have something to do with the lack of neck pickup, and the resulting lack of an additional magnetic field that might affect the strings' ability to vibrate freely.

    I want to ask whether forum members think this might be the case, and whether anyone is aware of any resarch that might have been done to explore this topic?

    Thanks in advance, Simon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hall Guitars View Post
    I've occasionally heard that Esquires and Les Paul juniors sound better (although I realise that better is a subjective term!) than Telecasters and LP Standards etc., and that this might have something to do with the lack of neck pickup, and the resulting lack of an additional magnetic field that might affect the strings' ability to vibrate freely.
    It'd be easy enough to find out. Take the neck pickup out of your Telecaster or Les Paul, and hear for yourself.
    You know the saying. "If it sounds good, it is good." Regardless of the science.

    PS- Another theory is that routing a hole for a pickup near the neck "messes up" (scientific term) body vibrations.

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    Last edited by rjb; 04-24-2016 at 03:54 PM.

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Now there's a thought for Sunday morning . . . just think, all those millions of recordings and gazillions of live shows, that all sounded not as good as they could have, because the performers' guitars (basses too) had neck (or middle) pickups. I'm gonna be depressed all week!

    "Research" . . . "better" . . . all very subjective. How do you propose this research could take place Simon? Don't forget, only a double blind test (or double "deaf" test in the case of audio phenomena) has any hope of revealing any true difference.

    I'll give you one "difference". The performer doesn't have to think "which pickup should I select?" therefore can concentrate on their performance. Further, if the instrument has no volume or tone controls, so much the better: "how do I set it?" isn't involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hall Guitars View Post
    I've occasionally heard that Esquires and Les Paul juniors sound better (although I realise that better is a subjective term!) than Telecasters and LP Standards etc., and that this might have something to do with the lack of neck pickup, and the resulting lack of an additional magnetic field that might affect the strings' ability to vibrate freely.

    I want to ask whether forum members think this might be the case, and whether anyone is aware of any resarch that might have been done to explore this topic?

    Thanks in advance, Simon
    Yeah, Simon, subjective's the word.

    My guess is you're on to something with an extra magnetic field sapping sustain. I would have just chalked it up to more wood and so better sound transmission from nk to body.

    Of course it all comes down to what you like, and what sounds you're going for. As Leo is saying, plenty of first rate performances from every kind of instrument imaginable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    It'd be easy enough to find out. Take the neck pickup out of your Telecaster or Les Paul, and hear for yourself.
    You know the saying. "If it sounds good, it is good." Regardless of the science.

    PS- Another theory is that routing a hole for a pickup near the neck "messes up" (scientific term) body vibrations.
    Agree, but there is more!

    It is all about the isolation of variables to see or hear any difference. These variables include: 1. scale length, 2. string gauge, 3. neck fit, 4. bridge type, 5. string termination (through body or through bridge), 6. neck and body resonances, 7. fingerboard material, 8. type of bridge pickup being used, 9. room size, 10. amp volume, 11. distance of player from amp and finally and most importantly 12. any prejudice for taking the effort to prove something with this many variables.

    Joseph J. Rogowski

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    Pickup Makers Forum, is down to Myth hunting?
    WTF?
    Normally we keep this tech forum for building and designing pickups.
    Your Thread should be in one of the Non tech forums dedicated to opinions and here say!
    Threads like this in a technical building forum IMO diminishes the forum, and should be moved.

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    Last edited by big_teee; 04-24-2016 at 07:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hall Guitars View Post
    I've occasionally heard that the lack of neck pickup, and the resulting lack of an additional magnetic field that might affect the strings' ability to vibrate freely.
    In the case of a strat, with 18 very strongly focused magnetic rods under the strings, the effect is negligibly.

    In the case of humbuckers, negligibly became nonexistent.

    HTH,

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    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
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    Exclamation Bunk

    I think it's all bunk.
    I would never want a one pickup guitar. No variety there.
    If there was only one pickup I sure wouldn't want it in the bridge position.
    I would put it somewhere in the middle of the body.

    JJ

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    Senior Member jack briggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin'John View Post
    I think it's all bunk.
    I would never want a one pickup guitar. No variety there.
    If there was only one pickup I sure wouldn't want it in the bridge position.
    I would put it somewhere in the middle of the body.

    JJ
    agreed:

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    I could get away with an Esquire-style... then again, my Tele is a mid-90s American Standard with a Duncan Alnico II Pro in the bridge... totally different animal from a twang-banger... I'm not really fond of the "vintage Tele" sound... I could also go with a Strat without a bridge pickup.

    Justin

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    I'm sorry that you don't think the topic is relevant to the group. I won't ask again!

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    Maybe this is just in the wrong subforum? Maybe belongs in pickup theory or what have you, instead of makers?

    I don't think it's a bad question. But there is always the danger of endless speculation...
    I never noticed a change when I tried it with my guitars, though... But as long as loud and crunchy comes out, with lots of bite, I'm happy. At the volumes I play at, speakers are going to have a much easier time overriding any influence an additional pickup might have!

    Justin

    Justin

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    Thanks for the reply. I've tried that (your first suggestion) and can't tell the difference. To be honest, it's the science I'm interested in. The reason for asking is that I'm writing a paper for a guitar making degree and will actually be testing this properly, with both frequency spectrum analysis and blind tests.

    There is too much snake oil in this business already where people think their ears are sensitive enough to tell the difference between many aspects of guitar build/design when blind tests often find that they actually can't.

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    Thanks for the repy Joseph, I totally agree that I need to cut out all variables and conduct scientifically sound experiments and blind tests to prove it one way or another. That's exactly what I'm going to do but I thought you guys would have valid opinions which were well worth hearing too, which they have been!

    Thanks for the tips, Simon

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    Jack,I had a 60's Epiphone with one P90. It was nice sounding.

    JJ

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    Double blind testing and accurate analysis of any possible differences in the sound envelope and frequency spectrums are the only way to prove something like this one way or another. That's exactly what I'll be doing later this week!

    I honestly don't think anyone can really tell the difference but I'd like to prove it rather than just go on assuming something might or might not be the case, which many people involved in guitar making do.

    Thanks for the reply, Simon

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    I totally agree it all comes down to what you like and didn't mean to suggest it would (or has ever) inhibited a performance. I'm actually looking to dispell the notion through testing (as I don't believe the difference is noticeable to the human ear) for a degree paper, but wanted to gather informed opinions such as yourselves too.

    Fot the record, I mostly play strat types and my favoured position is neck and middle pickups combined - so I'm certainly not going to rush out and yank pickups out of one of mine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hall Guitars View Post
    I'm sorry that you don't think the topic is relevant to the group. I won't ask again!
    No need to be sorry, and whether you ask again or not, I'm sure we'll beat the subject to flinders, as we often do around here. Besides we're mostly all group jumpers here, there's no escape.

    Now I see you're looking for a subject to write your guitar-making degree research paper on, must admit IMO it's kind of a thin subject to approach, based on "I've occasionally heard ... whatever hearsay anyone wants to make up." But don't let me slow you down. OTOH don't forget to make up test instruments that include extra magnets but NOT pickups, to prove whether it's the "invisible fingers of magnetic fields" causing this vaunted reduction of tone/sustain. Of course instruments with pickup routings but no pickups/magnets mounted, that's a given. Also . . . sustain isn't everything. Nice to have it, but in actual playing it's all too often necessary to limit sustain with palm muting & felt or foam string mutes. Note "value" has its place, and notes that linger too long are unwelcome; a too long decay just gets in the way. As a bass player it took me way way way too long to understand this. I should have learned a thing or three from Carol Kaye. She always seems to get it right!

    If you do pursue this research, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to see the results. Even if the research disproves the theory, that's perfectly OK.

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    Thanks for the tips. To be fair, it's not a final paper, just a very minor case study but I'll definitely take your points on board and will build them into the tests. Hopefully it will disprove the theory as my own opinion is that the differences will be too small to notice by the human ear but I remain open minded until I do the actual tests.

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    If the neck pickup has very (way too) strong magnets, then the "stratitis" that it causes is heard when the bridge pickup is used. But nobody rational would play a guitar with extremely strong magnets. In general, proper adjustment of pickups assures that there is little effect on the sound.

    I think this is an interesting question, one that deserves to be discussed in this forum. After all, much of what is discussed here is at least partly subjective. Int is hard to do double blind tests for everything.

    But I think your tests need to include listening to both pickups. Perhaps the question investigated could be something like this: when the neck pickup is increased in strength, are differences heard in it due to strong magnets always accompanied by audible differences in the bridge pickup? My guess is that you have to have strong effects on the neck pickup before it becomes much of an an effect on the bridge pickup, but that is just a guess.

    May your tests go well!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hall Guitars View Post
    Thanks for the tips. To be fair, it's not a final paper, just a very minor case study but I'll definitely take your points on board and will build them into the tests. Hopefully it will disprove the theory as my own opinion is that the differences will be too small to notice by the human ear but I remain open minded until I do the actual tests.

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    Supporting Member mozz's Avatar
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    The reason why 1 pickup guitars sound better is................... the guy playing the guitar only has one pickup, he tries harder and concentrates more on his playing, simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hall Guitars View Post
    Thanks for the repy Joseph, I totally agree that I need to cut out all variables and conduct scientifically sound experiments and blind tests to prove it one way or another. That's exactly what I'm going to do but I thought you guys would have valid opinions which were well worth hearing too, which they have been!

    Thanks for the tips, Simon
    Simon,

    The energy that a pickup converts into electrical energy is based on the amount of energy that the strum or note pick passes on to the strings in the initial attack and then as the string(s) decay. How the energy is removed from the strings by the things that affect initial attack during the first 20 to 30 milliseconds should be measured separately. Then, focus on the near sustain after the attack and the longer sustain levels followed by the decay rate down into the noise level. The less energy the guitar body, neck, and hardware suck from the strings allows more energy to be left for the pickups to deliver to the amplifier. Finding a consistent way to pick the strings with equal energy and measure the output consistently will allow you to easily analyze many guitars and draw some statistical inferences about various guitar design styles on your measured outcomes.

    There has been a lot of research done on this general topic but not on how the various body, neck and hardware variations styles as well as pickup variations affect the attack, sustain and decay of string energy being replicated by pickups. Choose your research battles wisely!

    Joseph J. Rogowski

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    OK, I'm an ignoramus.

    Quote Originally Posted by jack briggs View Post
    agreed:

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    Is that an ES-225?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Is that an ES-225?
    '57 es 225T
    nice, huh?

    cheers,

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    Exclamation

    Yes. That's the reason.

    JJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by jack briggs View Post
    '57 es 225T
    nice, huh?
    Nah, needs another pickup.

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    Senior Member jack briggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Nah, needs another pickup.
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    cheers,

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    That's not a guitar.


    That's a guitar.

    With apologies to
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
    If the neck pickup has very (way too) strong magnets, then the "stratitis" that it causes is heard when the bridge pickup is used.
    You often hear that it's a bonus to use weaker magnets because less string pull means less sustain, but do you think it's possible for there to be too little pull to cause "Stratitus", but yet enough pull to have a meaningful consequence on the sustain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kolbeck View Post
    You often hear that it's a bonus to use weaker magnets because less string pull means less sustain, but do you think it's possible for there to be too little pull to cause "Stratitus", but yet enough pull to have a meaningful consequence on the sustain?
    I do not know, but I would not make that claim without careful testing. I would also want to know why the magnetic field causes more energy dissipation in the string when the magnets are not strong enough to cause stratitis.

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    The electrical energy from the pickup must come from the kinetic energy of the strings. Does this mean if the pickup is unconnected that it is absorbing less energy? Some must also be lost to hysteresis. If you do go through with the experiment I'd be interested in finding out if my hypothesis is correct although I imagine that for all practical purposes the effect is negligible.

    As a side note, would pulling a magnet off the strings be a repeatable way to test this?

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    Just a player here but I did away with my neck pickup years ago, along with all tone controls and phase/coil tap switches. I have only a single volume knob and a kill switch on the guitar and my tone gets controlled at the amp. I miss running in stereo with two amps but that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The electrical energy from the pickup must come from the kinetic energy of the strings. Does this mean if the pickup is unconnected that it is absorbing less energy? Some must also be lost to hysteresis. If you do go through with the experiment I'd be interested in finding out if my hypothesis is correct although I imagine that for all practical purposes the effect is negligible.

    As a side note, would pulling a magnet off the strings be a repeatable way to test this?
    I think the power supplied to the electrical circuit is a lot less than the power lost in the neck, body, string, and to the air. I would have to do the calculation again to be sure. One way to do this is first measure the decay time constant off the string, that is, due to all causes. Then from the pickup voltage and the load it operates into, you can compute the power (rate of energy dissipated). Then if you know the mass of the string and the amplitude of its vibration, you can compute its kinetic energy, and the compute the time constant associated with the loss due to driving the electrical circuit. Finally, you can compare the two time constants. I have done this very approximately in the past, and the result was that the time constant from the electrical loss is a lot longer than the measured time constant (decay due to all causes). But this whole process is a pita, and should be done again more carefully if a really good answer is needed.

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    I use my bridge pickup 70% of the time, and the neck + bridge in series 25%, and the remaining 2 positions for the last 5%. Yeah, I can get away with one pickup. It's more about construction and amp choice to me. Maybe why I'm so preferential to Bassman heads & big speakers...

    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The electrical energy from the pickup must come from the kinetic energy of the strings. Does this mean if the pickup is unconnected that it is absorbing less energy?
    That's an interesting question. In a loaded transformer, you'd have "back EMF" pushing against the original source the magnetic field. I wonder if a guitar pickup produces "back EMF" against the string, and how it might effect the string's movement.

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