Finished my first pickup, a couple questions

[Kelby]

A single coil for a strat, neck position. I used the StewMac kit. After the post-mortem, I have a couple questions.

I'm fairly happy with how it came out, but I should have made it warmer. It's a nice tone until you turn the volume up above 8, then it's just a little bright for my taste. Not shrill or anything, but brighter than my personal preference.

It's 8100 winds, and 5.9K. I probably wound it a little tight --- I erred on the side of tighter to avoid having to pot it. Is 5.9k about right for 8100 winds? How many winds to get something closer to 6.4k-6.5k? And how much warmer would that sound?

Also, I used the StewMac neo magnets to magnetize the rods. I haven't picked up a gauss meter yet, but using the "see how hard the screwdriver sticks to it" test, the magnets are a little stronger than my other single coil pickups. If I run the magnets over it the other way to de-gauss a little, will it warm things up a bit?

Finally, the guitar I put this in has some really cheap pots. They function fine, but how much effect do pots have on tone?

[black_labb]

Originally Posted by Kelby

A single coil for a strat, neck position. I used the StewMac kit. After the post-mortem, I have a couple questions.

I'm fairly happy with how it came out, but I should have made it warmer. It's a nice tone until you turn the volume up above 8, then it's just a little bright for my taste. Not shrill or anything, but brighter than my personal preference.

It's 8100 winds, and 5.9K. I probably wound it a little tight --- I erred on the side of tighter to avoid having to pot it. Is 5.9k about right for 8100 winds? How many winds to get something closer to 6.4k-6.5k? And how much warmer would that sound?

Also, I used the StewMac neo magnets to magnetize the rods. I haven't picked up a gauss meter yet, but using the "see how hard the screwdriver sticks to it" test, the magnets are a little stronger than my other single coil pickups. If I run the magnets over it the other way to de-gauss a little, will it warm things up a bit?

Finally, the guitar I put this in has some really cheap pots. They function fine, but how much effect do pots have on tone?

5.9 seems about perfect, i did 8000 with a slightly smaller wire (between 42 and 43 awg) and mine came to 6 on the dot, i think my coils were a bit taller than most strat style coils as well (made the bobbin myself) which is probably why mine is that close to your value with the different wire.

[Dr. Guitar]

Put in CTS 250 Ks, and a nice capacitor. I like the Hovland Musicaps. A 0.047 will make a drastic difference in how well your tone pots work. If you want to spend $20 on just the cap that is. More than worth it in my opinion.

[madialex]

Originally Posted by Kelby

A single coil for a strat, neck position. I used the StewMac kit. After the post-mortem, I have a couple questions.

I'm fairly happy with how it came out, but I should have made it warmer. It's a nice tone until you turn the volume up above 8, then it's just a little bright for my taste. Not shrill or anything, but brighter than my personal preference.

It's 8100 winds, and 5.9K. I probably wound it a little tight --- I erred on the side of tighter to avoid having to pot it. Is 5.9k about right for 8100 winds? How many winds to get something closer to 6.4k-6.5k? And how much warmer would that sound?

Also, I used the StewMac neo magnets to magnetize the rods. I haven't picked up a gauss meter yet, but using the "see how hard the screwdriver sticks to it" test, the magnets are a little stronger than my other single coil pickups. If I run the magnets over it the other way to de-gauss a little, will it warm things up a bit?

Finally, the guitar I put this in has some really cheap pots. They function fine, but how much effect do pots have on tone?

1st paragraph- it is probably because you are not used to hand wound pickups, they seem brighter because of the broader freq spectrum. Yes more winds will fatten it up some but it should still be almost as bright, you dont want it to soft in the neck unless thats what you want.

Try looser winds I guess, I am only used to doing it my way so I cant advise you on that one. Also try tighter scatter but not a lot looser tension than what you are doing now, just let the wire glide between your finger without feeling a lot of drag or friction.

Sounds about right on the winds for that DCR. As far as magnet pull, the stew mac mags are A5 and the neo does pretty good at charging them. Although I read here that the 1 inch ones don't fully charge?? Not sure though I don't have a Gauss Meter. I think Possum said it and I trust him on things like that.

And finally, yes de-gaussing will soften them up some, but you are working with A5 and there is a point of change with all mags. You can go too far and they will suck tone wise. Personally I don't care for de-gaussed A5, I like A2 instead at full charge, and A4... A3 for some things.

I guess the best advice I can give is to find a good magnet distributer and order some different mags, A2, A3 A4 and A5 and start a good detailed notebook and start winding and taking notes.

[Spence]

This isn't unusual. Just turn the treble down on your amp and enjoy the tone.

[Sock Puppet]

Hi,

The cheap pots won't affect the tone if they are the correct value (measure them) but high quality ones certainly feel nicer to use.

Try a higher value capacitor than whatever's-in-there certainly but $20 caps? - nuts?

Personally I like the bright sound, especially with new strings.

S.

[TD_Madden]

I've found that many cheap pots' values are significantly off as well, particularly in the Korean/Chinese axes.

I've gotten into the habit of replacing 'em with CTS as a matter of course, as well as those crappy ceramic caps. I did try a set of MusicCaps in one guitar, and they are pretty nice...but NOT 15 bucks worth. Think I'll just stick to .022 Mallory 150s for consistancy.

[Mark Hammer]

What ARE the pot values in the guitar? Both tone and volume.

5.9k strikes me as a little low-ish for 8100 turns. Yes, tension can affect this but I don't see how you could get THAT much tension as a beginner without tearing the wire, so I'm guessing the height of the coil is a factor in this. If the polepieces, or rather the space between the two pieces of flatwork is a tad long, that increases the space for laying on turns of smaller circumference, resulting in a lower DCR. My understanding is that a smaller average circumference, or rather more turns close to the polepieces, will also result in a slightly brighter tone too. I imagine even 1/32" difference in winding space (easily achievable if the flatwork is not flush with the ends of the polepieces) could yield that sort of more-turns-per-kilohm outcome.

Of course, whether this is necessarily a bad thing is another matter. My approach is to aim for the widest frequency-response I can, and shave off what I don't want or need with controls of electronic component values. The thing is that you can never recreate treble response you didn't have to begin with, so start with the most you can.

On the other hand, there are resonances that people want quite apart from treble response, and one needs to differentiate between winding for "warmer" tone and winding for those resonances. The one may be a byproduct of the other.

There is also something to be said for what the optimum height of those pickups ought to be. After all, you just wound and installed it. Maybe the tone you were hoping for needs an adjustment of the height screws to be realized not a change in the coil or polepiece properties.

[TD_Madden]

what value cap are you using...think the "traditional" value for single-coils is .047mf....

[Kelby]

It's a .050 uF cap from StewMac. (They don't seem to sell the .047.)

I can fix the problem by adjusting the tone knob, but here's the dilemma. The tone is great with the tone knob wide-open until the volume goes to 8; above 8, and I have to turn the tone knob about halfway back to dial the highs back. Maybe it's just me, but in the middle of a song when I want to crank it up to 11, I'm just barely a good enough guitar player to be able to turn the volume knob up; no way I can turn the volume knob up and then tweak the tone knob before it's time to start playing again.

With some of my other pickups, the difference between the highs when the volume is below/above 8 is not enough that it bothers me, but with this one, turning the volume up high makes it just a bit too bright.

Worst case scenario, I can live with it. But next time around, I'll probably put another 6 or 700 winds on it to tame the highs just a bit.

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I'm looking forward to making more!

[Dave Kerr]

Check out the various treble bleed mods - there was a thread somewhere here on m-e-f about Kinman's as well as a couple others that made tone sound more consistent as volume is adjusted. Here's a site that touches on the subject a bit.

[Mark Hammer]

Okay, try working backwards.

The problem you describe is that treble is not a problem until you reach higher volumes. We know that loading down the pickup interferes with highs, and we know that a bypass cap can retain highs as you turn down the volume. So, why not load down the pickup by means of a resistor in parallel with the pot (try 470k straddling the two outside lugs of the pot) and adding a compensating cap to hang onto whatever treble you have left as you turn down?

[black_labb]

this is slightly off topic, but i always find it silly how people want lower value tone pote pots because they think the guitar is too bright and then put their 250k pot on full, when they could have used their current pot on a lower setting to get the exact sound. makes having the pot kind of useless when you always have it on full, might as well replace the pot with a 250k resistor and make the front of the guitar look less cluttered.

the tone mod mark hammer suggested is a good idea. it makes the amount of treble in the signal the same (or in the right proportion) as you turn the volume up or down, that way you dont have to worry about changed tone with the volume change. lets the volume pot be a volume pot

[Dr. Guitar]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

Hi,

The cheap pots won't affect the tone if they are the correct value (measure them) but high quality ones certainly feel nicer to use.

Try a higher value capacitor than whatever's-in-there certainly but $20 caps? - nuts?

Personally I like the bright sound, especially with new strings.

S.

Try em before you knock em.

I used to think the same thing. I also have a customer that insists on V caps which are about $50 a piece. Sprauges, Black Cats, Mallorys, etc. are all very nice, but the roll off doesn't sound as good as the Musicap. That and some like the Sprauges seem to have a tone "shift" as well. I was off on the $20 too. I think Musicaps go for a little under $15 in WD.

But always use the highest quality parts of you're going the route of custom pick ups. Nothing worse than make something, having it sound bad, because of something other than your work.

[chevalij]

8100 turns should give you in the range of 6.2k with standard 42awg (by my experience). If you are saying it is too bright, are you sure of your turns count and DCR?

[Dr. Guitar]

can't bellieve i forgot to mention this too. What gauge strings do you have on? I never recommend thinner than a set of 10's. Pure nickel wound strings will also warm your sound. But all of this would be true, before changing your pick up as well.

[mkat]

Originally Posted by TD_Madden

I've found that many cheap pots' values are significantly off as well, particularly in the Korean/Chinese axes.

I've gotten into the habit of replacing 'em with CTS as a matter of course, as well as those crappy ceramic caps.

I checked my last set of 250K CTS pots and they were off. I only have 2 that have the stated resistance. The rest are midway or closer to 300K.

If anyone knows of better pots (I have enough for cooking, so don't bother with those), please pass on the info and a supplier.

[Ruel]

For a guitar with both a humbucker and single coils, what pot value should one use?

[black_labb]

id use a higher value pot, if its too bright id turn it down. there's no point having a pot there when your just going to leave it on full. if you like the pot around the 250k mark, then get a 1meg, and turn it down to the right level. maybe you will find ourself playing through a darker amp and the extra brightness would be nice. i find it silly how people always want the pot to be where they want it at the full level. its like buying an amp because its full volume is where you like to play, so that you dont have to worry about dialing in the knob. that analogy is ignoring the idea that the sound of an amp changes when you change the volume levels.

[Ruel]

Originally Posted by black_labb

id use a higher value pot, if its too bright id turn it down. there's no point having a pot there when your just going to leave it on full. if you like the pot around the 250k mark, then get a 1meg, and turn it down to the right level. maybe you will find ourself playing through a darker amp and the extra brightness would be nice. i find it silly how people always want the pot to be where they want it at the full level. its like buying an amp because its full volume is where you like to play, so that you dont have to worry about dialing in the knob. that analogy is ignoring the idea that the sound of an amp changes when you change the volume levels.

People like the ones you describe could learn a thing or two from Gary Moore or Jimmy Page. Watch how they manipulate the volume pot to get different sounds from their guitars. I find that by dialing just enough gain in my amp then messing with the volume knob, I can play clean and dirty just by messing with the volume knob. No need for a stomp box.

[madialex]

Bright pickup? Back off the tension there sir squeeze a lot, JK and go from there.....