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Thread: New toy!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    New toy!

    My new toy came in today! Can't wait to get down to business with this thing...

    0412171416-2.jpg

    Thanks to Louis Scutti of Scero Guitars for the good deal.
    kayakerca likes this.

  2. #2
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post
    My new toy came in today! Can't wait to get down to business with this thing...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks to Louis Scutti of Scero Guitars for the good deal.
    How do you like the new toy?
    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
    ____________________________________________________
    In the immortal words of Dr. Johnny Fever, “When everyone is out to get you, paranoid is just good thinking.”

  3. #3
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakerca View Post
    How do you like the new toy?
    Loving it so far. Very solidly built. I'm still figuring out the quirks of CNC winding, but I've managed to wind some pretty nice coils already.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    The main "quirk" I'm running into has to do with the traverse...

    By no means is this a remark against the machine itself (it works perfectly), but the tricky part is getting a really accurate measurement of your wire's thickness. In order to have the wire lay down in perfect layers, you need to have 3 things:
    1) Your "zero" position needs to be accurate.
    2) Your bobbin height measurement needs to be very accurate.
    3) Your wire thickness measurement needs to be very accurate.

    1 and 2 aren't too hard to get, but since most calipers don't measure down to the 3rd or 4th decimal place for millimeters, if your measurement is too small, the traverse won't move quite as fast as it needs to get the exact TPL, and will lag behind the wire as it spools onto the bobbin. Conversely, if your measurement is too big, the traverse will move ahead of the wire, so to speak, as it spools onto the bobbin.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post
    The main "quirk" I'm running into has to do with the traverse...

    By no means is this a remark against the machine itself (it works perfectly), but the tricky part is getting a really accurate measurement of your wire's thickness. In order to have the wire lay down in perfect layers, you need to have 3 things:
    1) Your "zero" position needs to be accurate.
    2) Your bobbin height measurement needs to be very accurate.
    3) Your wire thickness measurement needs to be very accurate.

    1 and 2 aren't too hard to get, but since most calipers don't measure down to the 3rd or 4th decimal place for millimeters, if your measurement is too small, the traverse won't move quite as fast as it needs to get the exact TPL, and will lag behind the wire as it spools onto the bobbin. Conversely, if your measurement is too big, the traverse will move ahead of the wire, so to speak, as it spools onto the bobbin.
    That is a bummer of a quirk. Lacking the ability to measure that precisely you'll no doubt get it figured out after experimentation.

    But I will say that this was one of my concerns about this particular machine and cnc winders in general.

    Please let us know if you get this worked out. I've been watching the pound to dollar hoping it'd get even so I could maybe, possibly, justify it, but...

  6. #6
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post
    The main "quirk" I'm running into has to do with the traverse...

    By no means is this a remark against the machine itself (it works perfectly), but the tricky part is getting a really accurate measurement of your wire's thickness. In order to have the wire lay down in perfect layers, you need to have 3 things:
    1) Your "zero" position needs to be accurate.
    2) Your bobbin height measurement needs to be very accurate.
    3) Your wire thickness measurement needs to be very accurate.

    1 and 2 aren't too hard to get, but since most calipers don't measure down to the 3rd or 4th decimal place for millimeters, if your measurement is too small, the traverse won't move quite as fast as it needs to get the exact TPL, and will lag behind the wire as it spools onto the bobbin. Conversely, if your measurement is too big, the traverse will move ahead of the wire, so to speak, as it spools onto the bobbin.
    I get it. . . You think, "man, I have a CNC winder now and all of my winds will be PERFECT looking going forward." Not the case as there are a ton of little things that can get in the way of that, even with a CNC winder.

    I don't have a CNCDuDeZ CNC winder, but I've spent a fair bit of time on mine (design/build/use). I agree with you 100% on point 1), "zero" position needs to be dead nuts on. It's about the only thing you are going to have full control over.

    On your point 2) bobbin height may be very consistent for plastic HB bobbins, but as soon as you turn to something like a forbon Strat bobbin, accuracy to the n'th degree goes straight out the window. New forbon itself does not have enough thickness variance to affect a wind, but warping and assembly precision definitely do. Any variance in excess of a couple of wire thicknesses will have a noticeable affect on how the wire lays down and looks on the completed wind. You may find that you have issues obtaining consistent bobbin height of forbon style bobbins as a result of the precision with which they are assembled and subject to warping. And then there are those 50's, 60's and 70's Strat and Tele rewinds where the bobbins have flaired WAY out for a number of reasons. You will never get a consistent bobbin height on one of those badly flaired bobbins as is. You need to dig into your bag of tricks to become happy with those rewinds. One thing for certain, even if you mounting plate runs absolutely true, if you bobbin isn't perfectly flat on that surface, the wire is going to wind short on one side and high on the other side on one end of the wind and the exact opposite on the other end, giving it that "diagonal" parallelogram look to the wind. Never something you would put into a customer's hands.

    On point 3), I'm not sure that wire size really has affected the look of any wind I've done. Even if you're shooting to get side-by-side laydown of the wire it is not going to lay down perfectly side-by-side. If you are, say, putting down some 42SPN and you believe the posted spec of .0028" wire thickness, your tpl calculation would go something like (bobbin height [say .4375"] / wire thickness [say .0028"]) or a turns per layer of 156.25. So you would think that inputting all that would give you a perfect side-by-side wind. While it will look like it and be close, it's never going to happen as once that wire exits the guide it takes on a bit of a life of its own and does what ever it is moved to do, but laying down perfectly is never on it's dance card. I would be targeting a tpl of 156 on the wind vs. any notion of perfect side-by-side laydown of the wire. The other issue with the CNCDuDeZ unit is that having the felt tensioner double as the wire guide produces a wire guide that has potential for a fair bit of lateral movement by the wire as it leaves the felt as the felt "gives way" as a result of the pressure from the wire being pulled left-right-left-right-left. It may start coming squarely off what you perceive as centre, but when you get to the movement part, it begins to drag laterally into the felt a bit. I use a pro style wire guide that I have placed after the tensioner. The opening in my ruby tipped guide is only about 2 wire thicknesses and I can see that the wire "follows" the traverse on a bit of an angle changing with each traverse direction change. That would be way more significant when you include the inherent slop in a felt guide.

    I was under the impression that the CNCDuDeZ CNC winder had ramping for both rotary and traverse movement such that as the traverse slows to change direction, the rotary slows in some relevant proportion for the wire spacing remained consistent through the directional changes. I would think that would produce a pretty "flat" looking finished wind.

    You're going to love the results of you CNCDuDeZ CNC winder once you get past some of the thinking you used to keep things optimal when doing hand guided winding. Because you have incredible precision on wind traverse distance and specifying bobbin height, etc., with a bit of time you will find a couple of measurement based adjustments that yield beautiful looking results.

    How they sound. . . Totally different matter.

    Apologizes for all the rambling, but I am a huge fan of this CNC winding thing!
    David King and Quest like this.
    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
    ____________________________________________________
    In the immortal words of Dr. Johnny Fever, “When everyone is out to get you, paranoid is just good thinking.”

  7. #7
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    Hehe... yeah, although perfect winds might be cool, in the back of my mind I knew that wasn't going to happen. With wire this small, it has a mind of its own as it lays down, and the measurements are never going to be perfect enough. In its own way, it's a kind of an inherent scatter wind, really.

    As for the felt tension pads doing double-duty as a wire guide, I'm thinking of ways to getting a mount for a ruby-tipped guide on the traverse. Do you have some pics handy of your wire guide setup?


    This winder does in fact support ramping for each layer, but I've yet to use it. I'll be trying that soon, as well as programming some scatter wind parameters. Currently I've got it ramping up at the start, and then down for the finish, but for any type of mixed TPL, it requires ramping up and down for each layer.
    Last edited by Chris Turner; 04-18-2017 at 07:31 PM.

  8. #8
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post

    As for the felt tension pads doing double-duty as a wire guide, I'm thinking of ways to getting a mount for a ruby-tipped guide on the traverse. Do you have some pics handy of your wire guide setup?
    Here is my wire path setup. Wire travels straight up from the spool tamed by the Wisker Disk, through a brass rod loop, down on a ~ 45° angle through another brass rod loop that lines the wire up with the input side of the felt tensioner, through the felt tensioner and out the other side, straight to the wire guide, then to the bobbin. The second alignment loop, the felt tensioner and the wire guide are all mounted on the deck that is attached to the traverser motor, so they all move together.

    wire-guide.jpg
    Last edited by kayakerca; 04-18-2017 at 10:36 PM.
    Chris Turner likes this.
    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
    ____________________________________________________
    In the immortal words of Dr. Johnny Fever, “When everyone is out to get you, paranoid is just good thinking.”

  9. #9
    Old Timer Tom Phillips's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post
    ...the tricky part is getting a really accurate measurement of your wire's thickness... ...since most calipers don't measure down to the 3rd or 4th decimal place for millimeters...
    A good trick is to wind 10 turns of the wire on a smooth rod and measure the length of the ten turns. Divide the result by 10 and you will have a good average diameter of your exact wire including the varnish insulation thickness. For more accuracy just wind more turns and adjust the math.
    Chris Turner likes this.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakerca View Post
    Here is my wire path setup. Wire travels straight up from the spool tamed by the Wisker Disk, through a brass rod loop, down on a ~ 45° angle through another brass rod loop that lines the wire up with the input side of the felt tensioner, through the felt tensioner and out the other side, straight to the wire guide, then to the bobbin. The second alignment loop, the felt tensioner and the wire guide are all mounted on the deck that is attached to the traverser motor, so they all move together.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Where are people sourcing these wire guides?

  11. #11
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Where are people sourcing these wire guides?
    I got mine here: nozzles_ruby_tipped. Very expensive though. If I were buying again, I would go the AliExpress route something like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ruby...784733649.html

    Here are the dimensions of the tip I used.

    wire-guide-dimensions.jpg

    RA03030-3010-050-2200: B=0.3, L=30, F=3.0, D=1.0, G=0.5, E=22, H=0 mm in ruby insert exit, alumina insert entry in a stainless steel sleeve

    Edit. . . . Measurements in mm not in. . .
    Last edited by kayakerca; 04-25-2017 at 03:15 AM.
    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
    ____________________________________________________
    In the immortal words of Dr. Johnny Fever, “When everyone is out to get you, paranoid is just good thinking.”

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakerca View Post
    I got mine here: nozzles_ruby_tipped. Very expensive though. If I were buying again, I would go the AliExpress route something like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ruby...784733649.html

    Here are the dimensions of the tip I used.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    RA03030-3010-050-2200: B=0.3, L=30, F=3.0, D=1.0, G=0.5, E=22, H=0 mm in ruby insert exit, alumina insert entry in a stainless steel sleeve
    Thanks, man. Expensive either way with minimum orders and such. I'll stick to plastic for now.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    The folks that make the CNC winder I got also sell them: https://ukcnc.net/index.php?route=pr...tegory&path=60
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post
    The folks that make the CNC winder I got also sell them: https://ukcnc.net/index.php?route=pr...tegory&path=60
    Still expensive.

    You get the winder worked out yet?

  15. #15
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Still expensive.

    You get the winder worked out yet?

    Yeah, not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive.

    Winder is pretty much worked out. Just need to find a way to mount one of these wire guides... it'll help with both finding the zero position a little easier, and guiding the wire with more precision.
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  16. #16
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    and the handmade folks progress toward mass production.. irony is so ironical sometimes

    can you program in randomness to get that super cool BK scatterwound mojo??

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    Which wire guides?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    and the handmade folks progress toward mass production.. irony is so ironical sometimes

    can you program in randomness to get that super cool BK scatterwound mojo??
    Well this is certainly an argument to be made.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    and the handmade folks progress toward mass production.. irony is so ironical sometimes

    can you program in randomness to get that super cool BK scatterwound mojo??

    To be fair, I've never claimed to be some kind of purist.

    You can set up a program that will do mixed TPL. For instance, you can do 500 winds at 125 TPL, then 1000 winds at 250 TPL, etc. So, you can mimic the randomness you get when hand winding to a degree. Then again, you can simply hand wind on it, too.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Chris Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Which wire guides?

    The "wire guides" I was referring to are the ruby-tipped nozzles linked to above, specifically the ones from UKCNC. In Kayakerca's case, I suppose the "wire guide" could refer to the whole system he's got set up, starting with the whisker disk, brass loops, tensioner, and ruby-tipped nozzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Turner View Post
    To be fair, I've never claimed to be some kind of purist.

    You can set up a program that will do mixed TPL. For instance, you can do 500 winds at 125 TPL, then 1000 winds at 250 TPL, etc. So, you can mimic the randomness you get when hand winding to a degree. Then again, you can simply hand wind on it, too.
    Also, there are no rules.

    I'm sure that the program cnc uses can be set or reprogrammed to mimic all sorts of things.

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