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Thread: Pro Jr. Layout?

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    Pro Jr. Layout?

    Hey all. I'm looking for a Pro Jr. layout of any kind. I can't seem to find anything online.

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Not trying to be nosy, but isn't this a PC board with circuit board designation numbers? Why would you need a layout? Or, are you looking to build one and want a turret board layout?
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Not trying to be nosy, but isn't this a PC board with circuit board designation numbers? Why would you need a layout? Or, are you looking to build one and want a turret board layout?
    I have a friend who's interested in a ptp Pro Jr. and I am happy to oblige. I was just hoping someone might have a layout already so I don't have to create one from the schematic.

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    Did you try hoffman's el34 site?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mozz View Post
    Did you try hoffman's el34 site?
    That's where I got the schematic. But no layout.

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Y'know...

    I just entered "Pro Junior Layout" into google, and right there were multiple images, several of which were layouts.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Y'know...

    I just entered "Pro Junior Layout" into google, and right there were multiple images, several of which were layouts.
    I have no doubt you googled it and that you saw layouts, but I do doubt they were Pro Jr. layouts. Likely 18 watt and 74x variations.

    Please provide a link and prove me wrong.

    Edit: I do not like this new forum format.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    I have no doubt you googled it and that you saw layouts, but I do doubt they were Pro Jr. layouts. Likely 18 watt and 74x variations.

    Please provide a link and prove me wrong.

    Edit: I do not like this new forum format.
    You must want the 15 watt variation.
    nosaj
    http://www.thefenderforum.com/forum/...uilding-an-amp
    Last edited by nosaj; 05-20-2017 at 01:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    I have a friend who's interested in a ptp Pro Jr. and I am happy to oblige. I was just hoping someone might have a layout already so I don't have to create one from the schematic.
    Point to point would not require a layout as everything is connected component to component. It's a great way to learn to build from a schematic. Usually doesn't look great but if done right sounds great..

    nosaj

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Edit: I do not like this new forum format.[/QUOTE]

    What 'New Forum Format'?

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    Edit: I do not like this new forum format.
    What 'New Forum Format'?[/QUOTE]

    Probably the display mode is set to 'threaded'. I think that's default when you log in (and you don't stay logged in).
    thread-mode.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Well, you did say a layout of any kind, you didn;t specify a particular variant.

    Yes, the layouts I found were 18 watt Fender Pro Junior at least in title.

    How different are the layouts?
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    What 'New Forum Format'?
    Nevermind. It's displaying as a if it's a different forum application on my Linux laptop. I must be referencing some older version of the site.
    Last edited by jrdamien; 05-20-2017 at 05:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Well, you did say a layout of any kind, you didn;t specify a particular variant.

    Yes, the layouts I found were 18 watt Fender Pro Junior at least in title.

    How different are the layouts?
    Well, sure, but when I said layout of any kind I meant any kind of Pro Jr. layout. Hand drawn, sloppy, fancy, etc. But it'd be nice for it to still be for a Pro Jr.

    Those 18 watt Pro Jr layouts are people who build an 18 watt into a Pro Jr chassis using PJ iron. They're not Pro Jr's, though.

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Fair enough.
    But is the phase inverter stage about he same? Fender schematic shows LTP as do the 18watt pix. The push pull output stage ought to be the same or darn close. That leaves the other 12AX7 to program. It is at least a short cut through part of it.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Fair enough.
    But is the phase inverter stage about he same? Fender schematic shows LTP as do the 18watt pix. The push pull output stage ought to be the same or darn close. That leaves the other 12AX7 to program. It is at least a short cut through part of it.
    It certainly is that. You seem inspired to put it together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Fair enough.
    But is the phase inverter stage about he same? Fender schematic shows LTP as do the 18watt pix. The push pull output stage ought to be the same or darn close. That leaves the other 12AX7 to program. It is at least a short cut through part of it.
    So basically he could take the layouts of the 18watters and adjust values from the schematic of the pro jr (after looking at the similarites). Would be a good exercise. Maybe the OP can show us what he can do.
    nosaj

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    OH three four years ago, I'd hop right in and build something. My shop is just a memory, my parts and gear are in a storage unit, and I have no delusions I will ever operate a shop again. My shop work is done vicariously through others these days.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    So basically he could take the layouts of the 18watters and adjust values from the schematic of the pro jr (after looking at the similarites). Would be a good exercise. Maybe the OP can show us what he can do.
    nosaj
    No, there are component differences above and beyond voltages. I haven't looked into how significant those are.

    If I was good at turning a schematic into a layout I'd just do it. But I am not good at it.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    Point to point would not require a layout as everything is connected component to component.
    ?????????????????????????????
    Of course you need a layout, you can´t randomly throw a bucketful of parts inside a chassis and solder them where they fall or plain *try* to interconnect them without further thought.

    I used to build guitar amps on terminal strips before using eyeletted or printed boards and had to spend a good afternoon or two with pencil, paper and a good eraser to layout what I was about to build.
    And if you need to build more than one unit, you need a layout for consistency and repeatability, because "there´s more than one way to skin a cat".
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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    The 18 watt schematic shows the input 12AX7 paralleled for one triode effectively. The Fender has two stages in that tube. So it would be a matter of keeping the input stage but using one triode, then adding part board space for the second triode stuff. So the part board would be a little larger.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    ?????????????????????????????
    Of course you need a layout, you can´t randomly throw a bucketful of parts inside a chassis and solder them where they fall or plain *try* to interconnect them without further thought.

    I used to build guitar amps on terminal strips before using eyeletted or printed boards and had to spend a good afternoon or two with pencil, paper and a good eraser to layout what I was about to build.
    And if you need to build more than one unit, you need a layout for consistency and repeatability, because "there´s more than one way to skin a cat".
    Every once and awhile, for practice and for fun, I'll try to put together a really simple circuit like an 5f2 using just term strips and the sockets. I have yet to get it right the first time. Some day...
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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    The fender literature - at least the service manuals - includes layouts, but for the printed circuit board, which doesn;t help you.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Every time I see one of these threads I wonder "why" ? I can see maybe doing it if you have a hopelessly buggered board. But to gut a functioning amp just to rebuild it point to point always seems a bit ludicrous to me. Will it really sound different with the same component values, speaker, PT, OT, and tubes? I mean the amp might age better than a board after 20 years... but other than that... what is the advantage?
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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    Every time I see one of these threads I wonder "why" ? I can see maybe doing it if you have a hopelessly buggered board. But to gut a functioning amp just to rebuild it point to point always seems a bit ludicrous to me. Will it really sound different with the same component values, speaker, PT, OT, and tubes? I mean the amp might age better than a board after 20 years... but other than that... what is the advantage?
    With exact same components, it will sound the same.
    Only advantage of rebuilding on, say, eyeletted board is ease of modding; eyelets tolerate hundreds of leg/wire removals and resoldering, while PCB pads get destroyed after a few replacements.
    In fact, when I build something on eyeletted board I add a few "unused" eyelets on free spaces, they may prove handy later on.

    If you have a complex amp replacing its PCB is hopeless and frustrating, ; yet I often recommend junking a PCB on some amps, not to rebuild the same but to junk a buzzy crappy sounding high gain multi mode monstrosity and build instead a simple but killer sounding classic.

    It will sound better not because of construction technology but because *the design* is better, as simple as that.
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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Senior Member vintagekiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Unfortunately none of these are layouts. Fortunately no one googling "Pro Jr Schematic" will ever be wanting for links to said schematic.
    See the detailed attached links.
    Layout is on the next page after schematics.


    Fender Pro Junior- A Look "Under the Hood"
    Last edited by vintagekiki; 05-20-2017 at 08:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagekiki View Post
    See the detailed attached links.
    Layout is on the next page after schematics.
    You're referring to the PCB layout, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    Every time I see one of these threads I wonder "why" ? I can see maybe doing it if you have a hopelessly buggered board. But to gut a functioning amp just to rebuild it point to point always seems a bit ludicrous to me. Will it really sound different with the same component values, speaker, PT, OT, and tubes? I mean the amp might age better than a board after 20 years... but other than that... what is the advantage?
    Kids these days, with there doing things differently than other people do them.

    What you're talking about isn't happening. But I don't know who wouldn't rather have a ptp circuit and discreet components (jacks, sockets, etc) over a pcb. It makes it endlessly easier to work on and to repair.

  31. #31
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    I really think the OP should print this out and present it to his friend.

    ProJuniorIII_schematic_Rev-F.pdf

    The pcb IS the whole amp.

    To make it point to point you will need a tag board for at least the power supply.

    Add to that you will have to source the tube sockets.
    Also the front panel controls are pcb mounted. So they will have to be purchased.
    (the pots & the jack)

    In the end you will have most of the components swinging in the breeze as you will probably have to use the socket pins for attachment points.
    Add to that all of the wire to connect things.

    Waste of time is what your friend wants from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    I really think the OP should print this out and present it to his friend.

    ProJuniorIII_schematic_Rev-F.pdf

    The pcb IS the whole amp.

    To make it point to point you will need a tag board for at least the power supply.

    Add to that you will have to source the tube sockets.
    Also the front panel controls are pcb mounted. So they will have to be purchased.
    (the pots & the jack)

    In the end you will have most of the components swinging in the breeze as you will probably have to use the socket pins for attachment points.
    Add to that all of the wire to connect things.

    Waste of time is what your friend wants from you.
    There's either a miscommunication taking place (it IS the internet) or people aren't reading this forum thoroughly. Or...well, I don't know why there'd be this much unsolicited condescension.

    I have the schematic. I have the PCB "layout." I was looking for a ptp layout. Why I need it or whether it'd be a waste of time or money was never a question or concern.

    Yes, to build an amp from scratch you need to buy all the things needed to build an amp from scratch. That's the whole idea.

  33. #33
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    No offence intended and just to be clear, there was never such an animal in production? Or was there a custom shop PTP version?
    If not, you are looking for someone who has done a conversion, or scratch build of Pro Jr. and is willing to share their layout?
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
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    Okay, maybe I can help. I don't know if the "scale" of the innards - trace spacing, etc. - will allow this. But here's what I did with my Prosonic's rectifier switch board. The switch broke, and so I had to replace it. Being a 12-pin switch, mounted on a tiny PCB, I removed the PCB from the switch, carefully. Yes, traces had come up. I folded them back in place, and it was a double-sided board.

    I took pictures from every angle of that little board. Then I drew a picture of it, to scale, showing where the traces were on both sides. Next, I sanded both sides of the PCB, so that there were no more traces. I drilled out the 12 holes for the switch and put a turret in each. Then I mounted the new switch on the backside of the turrets and soldered the pins in. The switch was mounted on what would have been the underside of a traditional board. On the turret side, I ran the hookup wires as the traces had been.

    As far as making a turret board OUT OF a PCB, that would depend on the quality and thickness of the PCB material, and whether or not the traces are widely enough spaced to allow for turrets or eyelets. I don't know if a Pro Junior would allow it, but I could do it with an older Ampeg or Marshall from the 70s. But yes, it is POSSIBLE to make a layout, especially since turrets can have connections on both sides.

    That said, I bet that any old late-50s Tweed Fender layout with two preamp & 2 power tubes would be close enough. Yes, you'd absolutely have to adapt your pots, switches, etc. to fit, but the layout itself isn't that hard. And the reason nobody has one MAY be because nobody has had the need to MAKE one. Question: IS THIS A SCRATCH BUILD, as in, you're building a clone, OR are you gutting a perfectly good PJ to cram a PTP circuit in it? If the former, yes, be a pioneer and make a layout from the schematic! Otherwise, don't gut a perfectly good amp until it flames out irreparably.

    Just my opinions,

    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    ?????????????????????????????
    Of course you need a layout, you can´t randomly throw a bucketful of parts inside a chassis and solder them where they fall or plain *try* to interconnect them without further thought.

    I used to build guitar amps on terminal strips before using eyeletted or printed boards and had to spend a good afternoon or two with pencil, paper and a good eraser to layout what I was about to build.
    And if you need to build more than one unit, you need a layout for consistency and repeatability, because "there´s more than one way to skin a cat".
    When I built the champ and the kalamazoo one, and the watts dominator I tied off tube sockets and pots. My layout was the schematic, Which is why I said with a true point to point a layout is not required just a few rules regarding lead dress.

    nosaj

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