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    I know whats wrong.......

    Working on a rather battered Vox right now, but I found all that was wrong was this dry joint;

    img_20170626_190107167.jpg

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    The dreaded amp roach infestation.
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    Certified Dotard

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    Working on a rather battered Vox right now, but I found all that was wrong was this dry joint
    Ah you British guys like to roll your own. Could be just Old Holborn or Golden Virginia, or a half & half "Paki" if you're real lucky.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    An old joint on an old VOX amp?
    Run an ADN test on the saliva remains, it might me Mick Jagger´s or similar, worth one Million Pounds on auction at Sotheby´s .

    Stock Photo - 1965 - Two Rolling Stones busted on drug charges : Mick Jagger and Keith Richard, of the Rolling Stones pop group, appeared before chichester magistrates on offenses under the




    or if that VOX came from Canada:

    Last edited by J M Fahey; 06-26-2017 at 09:34 PM.
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    " Rolling Stones pop group... "

    I had to laugh at that. Does anybody remember a time when the Stones, Floyd, Who, etc. all wanted to be POP groups... I would think they all made a much longer lasting legacy as ROCK groups.

    Justin
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    But rock WAS pop back in the day. Anne Murray and Neil Sedaka were for the main stream. Things shifted some time around 1970 and soon there was hard rock and pop rock. I don't think I ever heard the term "pop" applied to anything but rock before MTV.
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    Does anybody remember a time when the Stones, Floyd, Who, etc. all wanted to be POP groups...
    Wanted to be? Not so much. Described as such by the press? Yes, they were considered to be part of the disposable culture of the time. Remember, rock'n'roll was just supposed to be a phase, a passing phenomenon that would last six months at best. Hm, got that wrong, what next?

    Pop groups, that term strikes me as describing some acts that were intentionally lightweight (Strawberry Alarm Clock, 1910 Fruitgum Company) or artifically concocted (The Archies, The Monkees.)
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    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I don't think I ever heard the term "pop" applied to anything but rock before MTV.
    The term "pop" or "pops" was used a lot earlier than that....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Pops_Orchestra


    Can You Tell the Difference?

    Pop:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwAERaRUsp0

    Rock:
    https://youtu.be/aeVooDp60VA?t=60
    Last edited by rjb; 06-27-2017 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Added heading below --------

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Pop groups, that term strikes me as describing some acts that were intentionally lightweight (Strawberry Alarm Clock, 1910 Fruitgum Company) or artifically concocted (The Archies, The Monkees.)
    What was the term used to describe folks like Herb Albert, Burt Bacharach, etc.? Easy Listening? I seem to have cobweb brain at the moment.

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Yes, easy listening. Then MOR (middle of the road).

    I think the "pop" as used by Boston Pops comes from a different world than the pop in "pop groups".

    I agree that no one considered himself a pop star at the time, that was a term in the media. Similarly the term "recreational drugs." In the media it was a term, but no bunch of stoners anywhere ever said "I need to get more recreational drugs" other than in irony.
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    Leo,

    Syd Barrett very much wanted to be a "pop star," "like the Beatles." Of course, whether or not his vision of what was "pop" music was indeed palatable enough to allow him to become one is a matter of debate. I for one LOVE his material...

    Justin
    "Are you practicing in the lobby of the municipal library? It's still a guitar amp and it SHOULD make some noise (!!!)" - Chuck H. -
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    Leo,

    Syd Barrett very much wanted to be a "pop star," "like the Beatles." Of course, whether or not his vision of what was "pop" music was indeed palatable enough to allow him to become one is a matter of debate. I for one LOVE his material...

    Justin
    May have wanted to . . . but missed it by a country kilometer. Nonetheless I like some Syd songs too, "Arnold Layne" and "Bike" come to mind first.

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    I think 'pop' as in 'popular' is very much used across genres to describe a separation of the lightweights from the heavyweights. Contrast Pachelbel's Canon in D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbe34V1nog with something by Pierre Boulez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX__LB_ajTs. Boston pops would never touch the modern thing

    I'd bet beer money on the idea that in the 60's and 70's it was the record companies more than anyone who strove to get the 'pop' label put on their acts, just for the acceptance factor. For a group (or a single song) to be considered 'pop' it meant eligibility in the public's mind for American Band Stand, Top Of The Pops, etc.; for the musical act, it meant access to the wider market. Anyway, I'd be interested in knowing if 'rock' was even a common-usage word in 1965.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    Anyway, I'd be interested in knowing if 'rock' was even a common-usage word in 1965.
    1966 Vs. 1971: When 'Rock 'n' Roll' Became 'Rock,' And What We Lost : The Record : NPR
    Prior to the June 1967 release of The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, "rock and roll" meant any and everything formally tied to the mid-fifties explosion led commercially by Elvis Presley — doo-wop, surf music, Motown, the British Invasion, James Brown.... the term "rock," by itself, was almost nonexistent before Sgt. Pepper; afterward, it almost exclusively denoted white men with guitars.

    I heard it on NPR, so it must be true.

    -rb
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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I was a radio personality from 1966 through about 1972. "Rock and roll" was most definitely the term. As to rock and roll versus just rock, I don;t recall there being a distinction there, rock was just a familiarized shortening of rock and roll. In later years, we may have lost the roll, I sure do not recall any music referred to as roll. My view is that latter day distinctions between the terms is largely rationalization.

    Billboard used to have a category "Country and Western" music. People then assumed there was something called country and western music. There wasn't. Country music was always just that. Western music was a different thing. People wondered when the country music dropped the "and Western" part. they never had it, it was just a subcategory on Billboard, as both types were small potatoes at the time, so they lumped them together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    I was a radio personality from 1966 through about 1972......
    I would surely listen to that!
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Just doubled my audience!!

    Enzo was my air name, it just stuck the rest of my days.

    ("It's time for The Mighty Enzo and his show!!!")
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Billboard used to have a category "Country and Western" music. People then assumed there was something called country and western music. There wasn't. Country music was always just that. Western music was a different thing. People wondered when the country music dropped the "and Western" part. they never had it, it was just a subcategory on Billboard, as both types were small potatoes at the time, so they lumped them together.
    C&W makes for that great quote, from The Blues Brothers, "We play both kinds of music, country AND western."
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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    I was picturing Dr. Johnny Fever with a beard.
    I hope you didn't have any turkey drops.
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I did an evening version of a morning zoo, before morning zoo shows became common. Lots of production bits like fake commercials and little radio dramas. I did characters. It was fun.
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    WKRP! LOL! I watched

    When I mentioned that "I" hadn't heard "pop" applied to anything but rock before MTV I was speaking of "my" era. I do know there was pop before that. I had to decide on an age that defines someone's era. I was probably making my own musical choices about the same time I started playing the guitar. So, 12 years old. That was 1980. I took a walk down memory lane and looked up 1980 album releases and landed on a *ikipedia. I was absolutely blown away at what a muddle of sound that year was responsible for. I'd say something like "everything from ____ to ____" but I couldn't do it justice so I'll just provide a link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_in_music

    The thing I remember most (WRT rock music) was that Bon Scott died and then AC/DC released an album with a new singer five months later. I was really put off by that and refused to give Brian Johnson a fair shake for years. I also remember HATING Pink Floyd's The Wall for it's trite concept and intentionally targeting a gullible demographic (but I love David Gilmour's lead work on that record). I was pretty much alone on both matters among my peers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    Anyway, I'd be interested in knowing if 'rock' was even a common-usage word in 1965.
    There was no 'rock' in 1965 in the North of England. Back then they were called 'Beat' groups as in the 'Beat'les.

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    Mods 'n Rockers was already a term in use in the early 60s and the BBC reported clashes between the two in 1964. So there must have been recognition of the word 'rock' back then, even if it was related to Eddy Cochran-style rock, or maybe Gene Vincent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    Mods 'n Rockers was already a term in use in the early 60s and the BBC reported clashes between the two in 1964. So there must have been recognition of the word 'rock' back then, even if it was related to Eddy Cochran-style rock, or maybe Gene Vincent.
    Or Lonnie Donegan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    Even Lonnie Donegan could be considered as rock compared to the stuff my parents listened to in the 60s. Most of the music at home was 'easy listening'. It fitted in with knitwear, vinyl armchairs and food that was always boiled.
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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Oh my...
    I could be completely wet, but when I heard Mods and Rockers, I understood it to mean social castes. Mods were the fancy kids, who were into style, maybe foppish, they wore the "Carnaby Street" clothing. I even had a floral print shirt with the white collar and cuffs. If I recall, the Sears stores even had a Carnaby Street section in the men's clothes department for a while.

    I remember rockers as meaning tough guys, leather jackets and white T-shirts, so rock as in hard/tough rather than rock and roll.

    But that could be completely invalid, as it was my impression from across the pond.
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    Even Lonnie Donegan could be considered as rock compared to the stuff my parents listened to in the 60s. Most of the music at home was 'easy listening'. It fitted in with knitwear, vinyl armchairs and food that was always boiled.
    My friends and I constantly made fun of that stuff, we called it "cheezy listening." Music designed to put you to sleep, and keep you there. Mantovani, Andre' Kostalonetz Orchestra, Hugo Winterhalter, syrupy strings and practically no pulse. IIRC the big station in north NJ was WVJ. It was everywhere, you could pick it up on your dental fillings. On rare occasions they'd bump up the tempo, play musaked-up arrangements of pop songs done by Swingles Singers or Robert Shaw Chorale. About the only notable thing in all of this was Kostalonetz orchestra electric bass lines done by Carol Kaye.
    Last edited by Leo_Gnardo; 06-27-2017 at 03:40 PM.
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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    The Melachrino Strings, The 101 Strings, Percy Faith, Fred Waring, Mitch Miller, though those last two had singing.

    And Ray Conniff. OH my mom loved him. He had the orchestra, but he also had a chorus of singers, who sang instrument parts. No lyrics, but the singer sang "Bah da do wah, bah do do do de doo" Glorified humming. "Beautiful" arrangements of popular songs. The singers sang the horn parts. (Oh, the bah da was the first line from "I don't know why, I love you like I do, I don't know why, I just do".

    My mom ate that stuff up, she felt music should be "pretty". Not like that awful rock and roll I liked.

    Mom complained my rock music was "so repetitive". I would point out there is nothing more repetitive than In The Mood or String Of Pearls. Both from her beloved Glenn Miller.
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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Oh my...
    I could be completely wet, but when I heard Mods and Rockers, I understood it to mean social castes. Mods were the fancy kids, who were into style, maybe foppish, they wore the "Carnaby Street" clothing. I even had a floral print shirt with the white collar and cuffs. If I recall, the Sears stores even had a Carnaby Street section in the men's clothes department for a while.

    I remember rockers as meaning tough guys, leather jackets and white T-shirts, so rock as in hard/tough rather than rock and roll.

    But that could be completely invalid, as it was my impression from across the pond.
    My only brush with 'mods n rockers' is from The Who's Quadrophenia. Presumable set in the time period we're discussing, but not documentary by a long shot. It'd be hard for me to figure out what 'rockers' listened too, as the sound track is anachronistically late-70s The Who. Only by learning a little about skiffle and Jimmy Page's fascination with Lonnie Donegan do I have the slightest idea what 'rock' may have been back in the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    My mom ate that stuff up, she felt music should be "pretty". Not like that awful rock and roll I liked.
    My mom pretty much hated music.
    Once, I brought home an album from the public library....

    "WHAT THE #*!! IS THAT $#!+ YOU'RE LISTENING TO?"
    "Uh Mom,... that's the Count Basie Orchestra."
    Last edited by rjb; 06-27-2017 at 08:59 PM. Reason: CAPS

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    My mom was also not fond of loud. To her music was table radio turned way down to dentist office levels. I would be in the far corner of the finished basement while she was in the opposite corner of the upstairs. If she could hear my music at all, it was too loud. Not so much that it was loud upstairs, it certainly interfered with nothing, but in her mind if she could hear it up there it MUST be too loud down where I was.
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    I always loved Ringo's answer to if he is a Mod or a Rocker...
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGonz78 View Post
    I always loved Ringo's answer to if he is a Mod or a Rocker...
    Leave it to John! Q: "How did you find America?" JL: "Took a left at Greenland."
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    In the mid 60s there were a few gangs I'd go miles out of my way to avoid. If I did accidentally run into them the inevitable question was asked "You a Mod or a Rocker?" Whichever reply was always the 'wrong' answer and resulted in a punch in the face, or knee to the balls.
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    ... the inevitable question was asked "You a Mod or a Rocker?" Whichever reply was always the 'wrong' answer...
    Perhaps the correct answer was "No".
    "I've heard magic defined as "a technology you don't understand". By that aphorism, the folks in this forum are practicing wizards, able to summon AND control the lightning demon, and make charms to allow others to use the demon in certain ways." R.G.

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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