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Thread: Single coil 51-style Precision bass pickup question.

  1. #1
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    Single coil 51-style Precision bass pickup question.

    I just wound c. 6.9 kΩ (0,06 mm, AWG 42 or 43) wire to an old Seymour D. bobbing.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vz4flqigew...91348.jpg?dl=0

    1. It sounds a bit thin. If I coil more wire (2-3 kΩ ) do I get more bass? (f res goes down). I like the clarity of the PU.
    It has now winded to "old specs", which should sound not so bassy. I tried to eq, and found that some 3 dB more bass would be ok.

    2. I have an SD "Quarter Pounder" ( 11 kΩ) SCPB 3. It has way too much bass. What if I wind it to 7-9 kΩ ? Do I get more clarity and less bass?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170721_191348-2.jpg  
    Last edited by okabass; 07-24-2017 at 07:41 AM.

  2. #2
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I show specs for a 7.85-8.0K pickup wound at 9,500-10,000 turns.
    To combat flaring, if you can mount the pickup with a screw & nut setup, with a stiffening bar on top, that really helps.
    Before winding, I straighten the flatwork and run thin super glue around the magnets, top and bottom on the inside, after the glue dries, tape or dip the bobbins.
    After wax potting, I wrap the magnet wire area, with black clothe humbucker tape.
    Or if you prefer, use the cotten string.
    GL,
    T
    ** As to the questions, unfortunately, most will have to be answered by trial and error.
    I like DK's bigger wire idea!
    Last edited by big_teee; 07-23-2017 at 06:28 PM.
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    Lots of room for more wire on there. If you want to keep the brightness with more turns then using a heavy insulation would be a good place to start.

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    Thanks. I did most what you mentioned, but that super glue doesn't hold properly.

    Well, I found specs from 6,7 k (original '52); 6,5 k Fralin; Lollar 7,76 k; SD Antiquity 7,3 k; 7,7 k MIJ reissue etc. Average to 9 PU is 7,45 k. And: " Early versions used 42 gauge plain enamel with about 8500 to just under 9,000 turns hand scattered ".

    But what about my questions ?

    I kind of like the " thin" sound. I can eq, if I have to have more bass in some occasions. But I have some wire, and it wouldn't be a problem to wire more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David King View Post
    Lots of room for more wire on there. If you want to keep the brightness with more turns then using a heavy insulation would be a good place to start.
    You mean thicker insulation wire? Like what type?

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    Wire comes in single e.g. SPN or double coated AKA "heavy" e.g. HPN.
    Those 1950's single coil P pickups might have been Plain Enamel or Formvar. Heavy Formvar (HFV) is more common and perhaps easier to get.
    You can also brighten a pickup by moving the wire back and forth more often as you wind so that there are more places where the wires cross each other and an angle, taking up more room in the coil, with more minute air spaces within. This technique tends to reduce self-capacitance of the coil and makes it sound a bit brighter. It's essentially the same effect as using thicker insulation.
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  7. #7
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    I'd still like to get answer to these (marked ?) :

    1. It sounds a bit thin. If I coil more wire (2-3 kΩ ) do I get more bass? (f res goes down). I like the clarity of the PU.
    It has now winded to "old specs", which should sound not so bassy. I tried to eq, and found that some 3 dB more bass would be ok.

    2. I have an SD "Quarter Pounder" ( 11 kΩ) SCPB 3. It has way too much bass. What if I wind it to 7-9 kΩ ? Do I get more clarity and less bass?

  8. #8
    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    I'd still like to get answer to these (marked ?) :

    1. It sounds a bit thin. If I coil more wire (2-3 kΩ ) do I get more bass? (f res goes down). I like the clarity of the PU.
    It has now winded to "old specs", which should sound not so bassy. I tried to eq, and found that some 3 dB more bass would be ok.

    2. I have an SD "Quarter Pounder" ( 11 kΩ) SCPB 3. It has way too much bass. What if I wind it to 7-9 kΩ ? Do I get more clarity and less bass?
    I don't think your problem is wire type so other wires ,Plain Enamel or heavy Formvar will not change much untill you get some things right first . you need to change you winding practice & superglue will work just fine ,You may want to clean the magnets first with Naphtha & if it's not holding as i suspect from that massive flare in you flatwork in the pic you have you have included ,you may want to use less tension & if your using limiters position them so you get a symmetrical wind & not so much to the top that causes flaring ............Enjoy .............there is a ton of info here on this site & makes for a great read ......
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    Supporting Member SonnyW's Avatar
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    Jumping in here --

    To try to answer your question 1, in theory if you wind more turns you get more bass (resonant frequency goes down). At some point too many turns will produce a muddy tone though. This also works in reverse, which is question 2. If you rewind the 11K one to 7-9 K it should in theory have a higher resonance and more clarity.

    Now here is where a quote from Yogi Berra applies. "In theory there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice there is." What I am saying is that there are a lot more variables than just number of turns here when you are talking about nuances in tone. For example, did you wax pot it? In my experience, wax potting will lower the resonant frequency, sometimes as much as 1 kHz. Also, the amount of scatter, amount of tension, and a lot of other little things can be in play. Example, from the picture it appears that you could be winding with too much tension. There's all kinds of discussion around here on the forum about the effect of the amount of scatter. It's easily possible to overdo it or not do it enough. As far as how hot to make them to get the vintage tone, I have only rewound one vintage one and it was wound with 42 plain enamel wire to probably about 6k ohms from my calculations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyW View Post
    Jumping in here --

    To try to answer your question 1, in theory if you wind more turns you get more bass (resonant frequency goes down). At some point too many turns will produce a muddy tone though. This also works in reverse, which is question 2. If you rewind the 11K one to 7-9 K it should in theory have a higher resonance and more clarity.

    Now here is where a quote from Yogi Berra applies. "In theory there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice there is." What I am saying is that there are a lot more variables than just number of turns here when you are talking about nuances in tone. For example, did you wax pot it? In my experience, wax potting will lower the resonant frequency, sometimes as much as 1 kHz. Also, the amount of scatter, amount of tension, and a lot of other little things can be in play. Example, from the picture it appears that you could be winding with too much tension. There's all kinds of discussion around here on the forum about the effect of the amount of scatter. It's easily possible to overdo it or not do it enough. As far as how hot to make them to get the vintage tone, I have only rewound one vintage one and it was wound with 42 plain enamel wire to probably about 6k ohms from my calculations.
    Thank you for your thorough answer.

    Yes I have a lot to learn; this is my 4th coil.
    About tension: my previous coil has too little tension, tried to avoid that. And the wire doesn't broke, so I thought the tension was probable ok.
    I superglued the magnets but it didn't hold too well. It is from a Seymour Duncan SCPB 2, and I didn't dismantle it.
    If waxing is lovering the f res, I try that. I didn't do it cause the PU didn't do feedback. And I read that not all old PU has waxpotting.
    Yes there are a lot variables in PUs. But I'm surprised that those 4 coils all worked, and have usable sound.

  11. #11
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    Well I wound old MIJ reissue PU to 6,45 kΩ and 2,5 H. I'm surprised how nice it sounds on my '51 Precision Bass MIJ. Tomorrow I'll try it with a band. In several occasion overwound PUs haven't sounded so good as near original -or even lower- specs.
    This evening I'll wind that Quarter Pounder. Its original wire seems to be AWG 44. I only have AWG 43 so must use that to get some 6000-7000 kΩ. The 1/4" magnets take so much space. Also the QP's inductance goes down from 5,6 H.

    Ps. QP wounded. 6,8 kΩ, 1,85 H, AWG 43, f res (1 nF capacitance) is 3,7 kHz. We'll see how it sounds.
    Last edited by okabass; 07-27-2017 at 11:21 AM.

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    jjjj
    Last edited by okabass; 07-30-2017 at 06:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Thanks. I did most what you mentioned, but that super glue doesn't hold properly.
    Wash your magnets in acetone before assembly. They may have a light oil on them for storage that prevents bonding. ...even oils from your fingers can make the glue not hold well on the smooth metal surface.

    Also, make sure the holes in your forbon are the ideal size for the diameter of magnet you are using. It should be a very tight fit. Fender never used glue (just lacquer) and most of the early ones I get are nice and straight without flaring. Those ones in the end of the 60's can be a different story.

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Here's a '51 spilt coil bobbing. The DIY single coils sound ok, but noisy. Going to try a humbucker.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/cg3tnf0d3g...657-1.jpg?dl=0

    Going to make two c. 3,4 kΩ coils, that will make around 6,8 kΩ as a humbucker. AWG 43 wire must be used.
    I'd take things a little slower as you are probably missing a ton of things that effect the tone of your pickup ..True singles are hard to beat .
    "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

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    H kk
    Last edited by okabass; 07-30-2017 at 06:40 AM.

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    www
    Last edited by okabass; 07-30-2017 at 06:40 AM.

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    [QU
    Last edited by okabass; 07-30-2017 at 06:40 AM.

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Yes. But like to hear it with my own ears. I've played bass professionally some 40 years, owned perhaps 20 different basses, so I know something about things. Never tried that kind of in-line split coil humbucker .
    Slower? What do you mean? Best way to learn is to do. I still have two '51 type single coil PUs. One in my bass.
    And making a spit coil adds my understanding about pickups.
    REALLY !!!! in the first post you being the OP & that pic of the half pipe shaped bobbin windings all over the place .........Basically like a Chicken with it's head cut off now you now it all or at least WE HAVE TO RESPECT YOUR EARS ...huh
    & like I previously said
    I'd take things a little slower as you are probably missing a ton of things that effect the tone of your pickup ..True singles are hard to beat .
    "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

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    Quote Originally Posted by copperheadroads View Post
    REALLY !!!! in the first post you being the OP & that pic of the half pipe shaped bobbin windings all over the place .........Basically like a Chicken with it's head cut off now you now it all or at least WE HAVE TO RESPECT YOUR EARS ...huh
    & like I previously said
    I'd take things a little slower as you are probably missing a ton of things that effect the tone of your pickup ..True singles are hard to beat .

    Perhaps I don't understand your english enough (Not my mother language). But as I understand it, your style is not very nice. Maybe it is better that I quit here.
    Last edited by okabass; 07-30-2017 at 06:38 AM.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Jim Shine's Avatar
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    I have been using a dab of black epoxy inside where each magnet meets the bobbin. It works well.

    But I am also realizing that if the tension of the wire is such that it is warping the bobbin, it isn't correct. There is very little tension on that wire. The old machines Leo slapped together wouldn't allow significant tension to be applied. It kept the bobbins flat and prevented the winders from snapping coil wire in the middle of winding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post

    Perhaps I don't understand your english enough (Not my mother language). But as I understand it, your style is not very nice. Maybe it is better that I quit here.
    Nah. But a bit more humility might be good.

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