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Thread: The King is tone deaf!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    The King is tone deaf!

    I've got a King… it's a bass guitar and it has the strangest problem I have ever come across, the tone control don't do anything. I looked at the wiring and it's all good, I've checked the pots which are both 500KA's and even swapped the tone one in and out with new 500KA's and 250KA's, I've tried caps from 10nf to 100nf, I even altered the wiring with the tone cap coming right off the pickup or right off the volume wiper and all with no change in the tone… I'm not getting any tone function period.

    This bass uses 2 TV Jones Thunderblade pickups which measure about 4 to 4.2 killohms DC. These go to a Gibson style toggle switch who's output goes to one side of the 500KA volume pot, the other side goes to ground. The tone control originally came off the volume pot terminal the pickup feed was hooked to but I have tested it on the volume pot wiper as well, this volume wiper goes straight to the output jack. The tone pot is 500KA with one end being fed from the volume pot, the other end unhooked (open) and the wiper attached to a 33nf cap to ground, right now I have a 47nf cap in there.

    Both the volume control and pickup switch work perfect but the tone control is D.O.A. … any ideas?
    king_bass.jpg
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  2. #2
    Old Timer Tom Phillips's Avatar
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    The photo is confusing. I don't see any tone cap and it looks like the bare wire soldered to the back of the tone pot could short to the center lug of the tone pot.

  3. #3
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Same here.
    Please *draw* the actual schematic/wiring.
    I see no tone cap and the tone pot seems to have only one lug connected (ground ), the wiper may or may not be touching a bare copper wire joining both pot grounds, blue-gray and dark grey wires prtly cover bottom pot body, etc., picture is somewhat fuzzy so I see shielded cables presumably coming from pots but not sharp/close enouugh to sparate center conductor from shield, etc.

    Just draw it
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  4. #4
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Yeah guy's the picture stinks, all I have is an old G4 iPhone. The tone cap is there from the center terminal to the case of the tone pot, it's just so small it has disappeared in the picture but it's a good cap that measures out O.K. The wire that looks like it's shorting to the center pin is indeed close but there is no contact with the center pin of the tone pot. Although the wiring as far as interconnect is bare solid wire (weird!) it is all proper circuitry. I guess I can draw out the schematic but it will be identical to what you would expect from a proper circuit, this ain't rocket science. I was thinking about the impedance of the pickups versus the resistance of the pots and the value of the capacitor that is throwing this thing out of whack but that seems just silly... it's not a wiring problem this has been exhaustively examined already. Like I said, in over 1,000+ guitars that have come across my bench over the years, I have never experienced something this obviously impossible. Just as a side note I have subbed out everything except the pickups in this guitar a few times so far without any success in changing it's performance. Could it be the TV Jones's? Seems that's the only thing left, but how could they be effecting this, it just don't make any sense to me.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  5. #5
    rjb
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    Notes:
    1) Original wiring or not, I'd feel more comfortable if you'd put heat shrink over those bare interconnects.
    2) That must be some tiny capacitor!
    3) With DCRs of 4 to 4.2 kOhm, the pickups' inductance must be pretty low. But I would expect to hear some tone change with a 100nF cap.
    4) I got nothin.

    -rb

    Edit: Maybe try a 1uF cap. What have you got to lose?
    Last edited by rjb; 08-20-2017 at 08:28 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Here's some schematics I whipped up but I can't see how these can help. Here's how it came in the door...

    king1.jpg

    This is an alternate wire up I tried as well...

    king2.jpg

    Hey RJB, yeah that bare wire has to go but I want it to work first before I go pulling all the bare solid.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  7. #7
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    img_1755.gif
    The switch is different but look at the tone pot and cap value.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Hey olddawg, Yeah, I see that and 47nf is kind of standard as is 22nf or even 33nf depending on the pickup impedance, I have bins of them. The wiring is switched on the tone cap from the King but the net effect on the filter network (the pot and the cap) is the same... a cap to ground to bleed off high frequencies moderated by a variable resistor... a garden variety passive RC low pass filter. RJB suggested just what I was thinking about before I closed up the shop for the weekend and that's was to slap a 1uf cap in there... that's just crazy and you never ever see that but what the heck! I'm getting desperate, I hate things hanging around for days taking up valuable bench space.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  9. #9
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    If that rig came through my piddle shop?
    I would start by cleaning up the wiring, and use insulated colored wire.
    I too see no tone cap!
    I usually wire the tone pot directly to the jack output, or to the center of the volume pot. (50s style wiring)

    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

  10. #10
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    I too see no tone cap!
    It has a tone cap, it's had several tone caps, maybe when I shot this picture I was in between swapping out tone caps but believe me, it has a tone cap and it's in the right place in the circuit. This problem is only one of a host of problems with this bass. It came in with a wish list and I'm addressing issues one by one. I actually started by checking the truss rod and making sure it worked... no sense in doing anything if the truss is shot.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  11. #11
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sowhat View Post
    It has a tone cap, it's had several tone caps, maybe when I shot this picture I was in between swapping out tone caps but believe me, it has a tone cap and it's in the right place in the circuit. This problem is only one of a host of problems with this bass. It came in with a wish list and I'm addressing issues one by one. I actually started by checking the truss rod and making sure it worked... no sense in doing anything if the truss is shot.
    I believe you!
    I get things like that from time to time.
    Sometimes I just rip it all out and start over.
    You'll get it!
    I've been the Strat mechanic lately.
    All things Strat! lol
    Pickups, electronics, and partcasters.
    T
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

  12. #12
    rjb
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    I know you've got a lot more experience than me, but here's the only thing I can think of:
    Are you absolutlely sure the cap isn't floating?
    (Yes, I know the pots and caps tested good.)

    I recently found out the hard way that many newer Bournes pots don't tolerate soldering temperatures over 500F.*
    The carbon traces don't burn up, but the whatever-it-is substrate weakens.
    In a while, the riveted legs loosen, causing intermittant or no connection between the terminals and the trace.

    * The latest data sheets at Bournes' website specify a Soldering Condition of 260C max for 3 seconds max.
    But who reads spec sheets for something as trivial as a pot?

    -rb

  13. #13
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Hey, RJB, good thought but I have checked that out and it is indeed connected (I shot some sine through it). I don't know about everyone but I run my iron at 750 degrees F. I'm lightning quick with it and naturally any 750 degree tips temperature drops like a stone once you touch it to a joint and sink the heat. I do everything from soldering pickup covers to the frames all the way to putting 0204 capacitors on a surface mount pattern and I never change my temperature... I guess it's really dwell time more than temperature that makes the day and with tiny SMD's not drinking too much coffee. :-)
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  14. #14
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sowhat View Post
    Hey olddawg, Yeah, I see that and 47nf is kind of standard as is 22nf or even 33nf depending on the pickup impedance, I have bins of them. The wiring is switched on the tone cap from the King but the net effect on the filter network (the pot and the cap) is the same... a cap to ground to bleed off high frequencies moderated by a variable resistor... a garden variety passive RC low pass filter. RJB suggested just what I was thinking about before I closed up the shop for the weekend and that's was to slap a 1uf cap in there... that's just crazy and you never ever see that but what the heck! I'm getting desperate, I hate things hanging around for days taking up valuable bench space.
    My point is the high cut filter is the last thing before the jack. If you have a ground and the pot is wired correctly it has to work. I would redo it like this.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    My point is the high cut filter is the last thing before the jack.
    If you saw the two schematics I posted then you know that I tried that configuration with "alternate king wiring" and it made no difference. Thing is, I don't ever remember seeing 4KDC pickup windings before, more like 8KDC or even 14KDC. I think this has something to do with the filter not being in range with standard value caps. I have no indication that this tone control ever worked since the bass was new... maybe a design flaw? Tuesday morning I open up the shop for the new week and I'm going for broke with a 1uf cap and see what that does... I'll keep you posted.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  16. #16
    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sowhat View Post
    I don't know about everyone but I run my iron at 750 degrees F. I'm lightning quick....
    Well...
    I've got an "adustable temperature" Weller station that you adjust by changing tips. The available tip temperatures are 600F, 700F, and 800F, the "standard" being 700F. I may not be lightning quick, but my dwell time for pot terminals is under a second. I've used the standard tip for boatloads of 24mm pots... no problem. Pickup coil wires... no problem. Through-hole PCBs... no problem. Bournes 16mm pots with push-pull switch... big problem.
    Just sayin'.

    -rb
    Last edited by rjb; 08-21-2017 at 04:05 AM.

  17. #17
    rjb
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    Eureka(???)

    If your schematic shows the actual pickup configuration, they are hooked up wrong.
    The coils should be wired in series, not parallel.
    The red and green wires should be soldered and taped off.
    (In the photo, I can't tell what color wires are connected to the switch.)

    Thunder'Blade - Clear, Bold and Smooth - TV Jones
    ​Note: Shipped with 4 conductor wiring – ready for standard 2 conductor hook-up. Red and green wires are soldered and taped off for standard wiring - send red and green wires to ground for splitting coils. Splitting coils is not recommended for the Thunder'Blade due to lower coil power (but will work), however, it is convenient for custom switching. Example: where coils from other pickups are combined in series, or parallel.

    -rb
    Last edited by rjb; 08-21-2017 at 04:15 AM.

  18. #18
    rjb
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    Degrees of Separation

    Questions:
    1) Is the "King" bass guitar under discussion a David King bass guitar?
    2) Is that David King the same as MEF member David King?
    3) If so, can he shed some light on this topic?

    -rb

  19. #19
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    If your schematic shows the actual pickup configuration, they are hooked up wrong.
    The coils should be wired in series, not parallel.
    The red and green wires should be soldered and taped off.
    (In the photo, I can't tell what color wires are connected to the switch.)

    Thunder'Blade - Clear, Bold and Smooth - TV Jones
    ​Note: Shipped with 4 conductor wiring – ready for standard 2 conductor hook-up. Red and green wires are soldered and taped off for standard wiring - send red and green wires to ground for splitting coils. Splitting coils is not recommended for the Thunder'Blade due to lower coil power (but will work), however, it is convenient for custom switching. Example: where coils from other pickups are combined in series, or parallel.

    -rb
    As far as the pickup images, those are just an image clip from another schematic that looked about right, I make my schematics in AutoCAD and I have a whole pile of schematics I've made over the years that I cut and paste from, I think the pickup images are from an old Les Paul diagram.

    That's very interesting because these Thunderblades are 2 conductor pickups not 4 conductor ones. I will have to pull them from the body and take a look at the specifics, I can't imagine that someone replaced the whole pickup cable all the way into the pickup housing with some single conductor armor shielded push back cable. Maybe Thunderblades used to come as 2 wire and these ones are just the old style but this is something I now need to check out... 4KDC windings... stranger and stranger.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  20. #20
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Well...
    I've got an "adustable temperature" Weller station that you adjust by changing tips.
    I use one of those Hakko stations with an adjustable temperature control power unit. With the increasing amount of SMD work that comes my way I have a lot of different tips for special access situations but they are not temperature dependent, it's size and shape. As a result of my micro work I have come to use a flux syringe more and more to manage solder flow and wetting. This all of course is done using a microscope to see what I'm doing. I use a hot air station as much as I do a soldering station these days. I'm supposed to be enjoying my golden years of retirement but it seems I'm turning into Buck Rodgers.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  21. #21
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Questions:
    1) Is the "King" bass guitar under discussion a David King bass guitar?
    That's an interesting question, as I remember, the only marking on the entire bass is just "King" on the headstock.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  22. #22
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Stop chasing ghosts (do that later)
    Today, get a .05 cap , solder one leg to ground, the other to output jack "hot" but through a switch, then switch on-off.
    Previously disconnect current tone cap, or disconnect tone pot from the signal line.

    1) Does sound change or not?

    2) Where are you plugging your Bass into?

    Please answer these 2 questions.
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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  23. #23
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Stop chasing ghosts (do that later)
    Today, get a .05 cap , solder one leg to ground, the other to output jack "hot" but through a switch, then switch on-off.
    Previously disconnect current tone cap, or disconnect tone pot from the signal line.

    1) Does sound change or not?

    2) Where are you plugging your Bass into?

    Please answer these 2 questions.
    Today is my day off, but tomorrow I'll see about this. There's been a lot of conversation on this during my time away from the shop and I have not been near the thing since Saturday. I use my test amp to test guitars, and basses, I made it myself many years ago... it's tested a lot of gear. You do know I have already tried a 100nf cap with no detectable results as well as 10,22,33,47 and 68nf. I'm going to go for a full microfarad and see what happens... but tomorrow, today I'm kicking back under the glow of the solar eclipse.

    The home made test amp is basically a 60's style bassman cobbled together out of spare parts.
    Last edited by Sowhat; 08-21-2017 at 08:48 PM.
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    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  24. #24
    rjb
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    Since we're leaving no stone unturned, what's the cable capacitance?

    Never mind,
    -rb

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sowhat View Post
    I have already tried a 100nf cap with no detectable results as well as 10,22,33,47 and 68nf. I'm going to go for a full microfarad and see what happens...
    To test the wiring and pot you could try shorting out the cap and check to make sure that turning down the tone pot mutes the output.
    J M Fahey, g1 and eschertron like this.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    O.K. guys... here's the tale of the tape. This morning when I opened up the shop I went right to the bass and started what-iffing while I sipped my Starbucks Viente Iced Mocha... it's a bad habit! In the final analysis I used 141nf (3 47nf's in parallel) to get some tone out of the King. In over 50 years of doing this stuff I have never ever used so much capacitance to make a tone control operate. This is just crazy. Am I curious enough to track down the nitty gritty details of why this is? Not really, I'm just going to button this one up and get it off the bench because there's other customers waiting. Thanks for all the suggestions and encouragement, it's nice to talk to sympathetic ears every once and a while, It has a tendency to clear ones mind and open it up to things that you just simply miss or don't think about.
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  27. #27
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    *Please* answer:
    Today, get a .05 cap , solder one leg to ground, the other to output jack "hot" but through a switch, then switch on-off.
    Previously disconnect current tone cap, or disconnect tone pot from the signal line.

    1) Does sound change or not?
    and
    To test the wiring and pot you could try shorting out the cap and check to make sure that turning down the tone pot mutes the output.
    You are focusing only on cap value, we want to check pot and wiring which may still be wrong.
    Throw pickup impedance and load in the mix.

    PLEEEAAASSSSEEEEEEEE????????????????????
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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  28. #28
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    *Please* answer:

    and


    You are focusing only on cap value, we want to check pot and wiring which may still be wrong.
    Throw pickup impedance and load in the mix.

    PLEEEAAASSSSEEEEEEEE????????????????????
    I don't tell you everything I do here and maybe that's a mistake but there's actually a lot of details. I have replaced the pot with several other known new and good ones, I think I mentioned that already, maybe not. I have switched the circuit around, I have jumpered around the cap and the pot and done everything conceivable to eliminate variables. The only thing that worked was to raise the capacitance to 141nf and that did the trick. I didn't get into the truss adjustments, level, crowning and polish, control panel cover fabrication, action, intonation and relief setups or the nut modifications, or the strap lock installations or the general grungy condition of this bass upon receipt because that's not relevant. I guess I didn't answer your questions properly and for that I apologize. Here's the answers: 1. Does sound change or not? I used at one time or another a 47 and a 68nf cap either in place or directly on the signal line to ground and you specify a .05 cap, which I interpret as a .05 microfarad cap which is a 50 nanofarad cap and although I don't have any 50nf caps... I don't know that they even make those, 47 or 68 is close enough so the answer is no. 2. Where are you plugging your bass into.... I think I actually answered that one already as well. It gets plugged into a tried and true test amplifier that hundreds upon hundreds of other guitars, basses, keyboards and whatnot have been plugged into for testing over the years... I've even used it on gig's a few times.

    I'm not getting testy with this reply and I do really appreciate your input and suggestions but this ship has now sailed, the customer picked it up, tried it out, gladly payed for it and is happy as a little girl!
    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  29. #29
    rjb
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    Beating a Dead Bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Sowhat View Post
    In the final analysis I used 141nf (3 47nf's in parallel) to get some tone out of the King. In over 50 years of doing this stuff I have never ever used so much capacitance to make a tone control operate. This is just crazy.
    Makes sense, really.

    Compare:

    PBass: 6.4 Henries
    Fender Original 1962 P Bass Pickup | Musician's Friend

    vs

    ThunderBlade: 2.8 Henries (bridge), 1.7 Henries (neck)
    Thunder'Blade - Clear, Bold and Smooth - TV Jones

    -rb
    Last edited by rjb; 08-24-2017 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Played with formatting
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  30. #30
    Senior Member Sowhat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Makes sense, really.


    Ref:
    PBass: 6.4 Henries
    Fender Original 1962 P Bass Pickup | Musician's Friend

    vs

    ThunderBlade: 2.8 Henries (bridge), 1.7 Henries (neck)
    Thunder'Blade - Clear, Bold and Smooth - TV Jones

    -rb

    When the customer picked up this bass he said that the tone never worked since he bought the thing... like I suspected, a design flaw. Thanks so much for your research. Here's a final parting shot...

    final_shot.jpg
    Last edited by Sowhat; 08-23-2017 at 03:48 AM.
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    ... That's $1.00 for the chalk mark and $49,999.00 for knowing where to put it!

  31. #31
    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sowhat View Post
    Here's a final parting shot...
    Hey, I can see the caps now!

    -rb
    J M Fahey likes this.

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