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Thread: Vintage fender- which one.

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    Vintage fender- which one.

    Hi- I've finally bitten the bullet & going to buy my dream amp.. an original fender, but which is the Q.

    I'm thinking: vibroverb, pro reverb, vibrolux reverb, deluxe reverb, princeton reverb, or brown pr/ deluxe.

    What I want, is the fender "X factor". Simple as. You know: some fenders (seemingly most often the vintage ones circa ~1968-71) just have a level of tone that surpasses most all others it seems by a mile: reissues don't even come close, they just 'approximate' IMHO & sound totally uninteresting.

    I see this fender 'X factor' on vibroverb & vibrolux reverbs most. Whether shared circuits & spkrs Im not sure. Orig DR's I notice it too, but, Im reluctant as my home-built DR >2-10 (Riftampssourced&checked/ certified as it were) is so bassy I can't deal with it- to get an even tone I don't think I should be dialing treb 8.5, & bass 1 with single coils (5,5 surely). So unless an original DR is brighter.. I need to have the bright switch as an absolute must (I tried 5e3, a £1k Rifttv deluxe Im borrowing, & a 5F1 worst.. all so bassy I dont play at all/ a 5F1 so totally useless even with a tele that I can't understand how anyone finds these useable in any way at all so dark: rolling the vol down even a bit & its so ridiculously bassy its like Im playing a tele neck p'up wired in that absurd 'bass' mode: a total waste of time).

    I have a SFTR 79 ish on its way from fixers I hope to god won't show this wretched bassy trait, or if it does I can tame it to 'normal/ balanced' tone by the 3 tones + bright switch. But a SFTR vs an orig vibrolux reverb for eg? chalk & cheese: I think you understand what I mean. A spanner in the works; I played an orig Pro reverb recently & it just sounded like 'an amp'. No X factor (in effect I wouldn't have paid £50 for it so uninteresting it sounded/ weird).. so for some unfathomable reason SOME orig fenders have the X-factor.. but equally SOME just simply don't (why I can begin to understand/ I never will). Tricky for me.

    I have one shot. I must get that X-factor sound! help me out if you would.

    Thanks SC

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    I think maybe vibroverb, brown princeton/ deluxe/ any is going to be £too much. I have £1.2k max.

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    Did you tell Rift about your issue with the DR?
    Note that BFs tend to be rather bass heavy if used with closed back / ported cabs.
    And it's all but impossible to find the correct ~30% audio taper pots needed for BF treb and vol controls in the UK; taper-wise, the best bet are Fender branded spares for the RI models, but they aren't 'proper' old fashioned pots.

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    Hi Pdf64. No issue at all with Rift (its my build/ I haven't got £1.2k to spend on a Riftrepro).. its just the circuit. I have a DR extention cab & removing the middle one = less bass. But even so its still stupidly bass heavy: actually it -IS- like having the completely wrong audio taper, but, I have them correct. And it has been said that dialing in bass @ more than say 3 on a DR -IS- pretty hefty & folks tend to keep 3 as max. Regardless of how divine an original might be, it inherrantly seems like there's something amiss with the circuit to me using modern components perhaps.

    Anyway this is one reason Im ditching anything but original fenders now. Im so sick & tired of this bass wallop ruining everything, even a tele @ middle position.. that there's only one route left I can see: originals. Im NOT convinced by anything that replicates an orig now, whether RI or handwired-with-best-components modern repro. Occasionally thjough an odd exception repro -will- sound as good as an orig. But these are so few & far between (Ive ony ever heard 2 a bandmaster & a brown 6g3) & must be (I can only surmise) either the result of an exception/ an exceptionally gifted builder.. or a massive fluke getting precisely the correct voltages/ tolerances in all the critical points. Actually Ive boiled it down to either this being the essence of why orig fenders (most) sound so utterly better, or a combination of this + the transformers & caps especially, being of a far superior quality than anything available since.

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    Sorry, I didn't mean that you had an issue with Rift; rather did you explain to Rift (eg when he checked it etc) that the amp seems too bass heavy?
    Note that the BF bass control should be 10% audio, eg a standard modern CTS audio taper; a steeper taper (eg the 30% taper used for vol and treb) on the bass pot will tend to make the amp seem very bass heavy.
    For unknown reasons, DrZ uses a linear pot for the bass control on BF Fender based EZG50; check the forums, many users think that the amps are very bass heavy, complaining that something may be wrong as it sounds so bassy with the control set above 2.
    A simple swap to a 10% audio taper pot makes the world of difference to the user interface here, even though the range of control is the same.

    What do you mean by "I have a DR extention cab & removing the middle one = less bass" ?

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    Hi pdf64- interesting info, I wish I'd known about 10%, 30% tapers before: might have saved an awful lot of time & consternation (should you be right that this might have done the trick re. excessive bass) but then if others say the circuit is just inherrantly bassy.. then nothing wrong with my amp; its just the circuit.

    I have a feeling I do simply have std moderrn CTS pots for the bass controls. But, I've never heard of different varieties of the same audio or linear being available, let alone heard of anyone suggesting, or using anything other than a std 'linear' or 'audio' xyzK pot in any DR build (or any of the zillions of threads I used to build the 4 amps Ive made).. so this is total news to me.

    Anyway this is another reason to quit this build malarchy (as much as this build cost £500+ in components & 40 hours in time.. its a waste of effort if it sounds well, like just 'an amp' ie nothing interesting sonically at all, merely a shadow/ a vague representation of an original.. let alone one that seems -to me- voiced for baritone cellos not guitars (completely wrong- but I say this also about tweed & tv deluxes till the cows come home, even rift-built, & esp the dreadful/ totally unuseably dark 5F1).

    There aint anything wrong with it in terms of build or components. Its sounds like a DR should, & has even been said 'excellent sounding' from his ampgodliness mr.rift himself. Its FS you see anyway.. to fund a proper amp. Im selling the whole shebang to get me £1.2k > to totally start all over again > and with care get 'the amp' Ive always pined for (clever).

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    The exact taper is often noted on the schematic, eg see 250k 30A J taper, 250k 10A, 100k B etc on an RI http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...erb_manual.pdf
    or 250kA 2-35 on an early SF http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...a270_schem.pdf
    But then later SFs used all ~35% J tapers on the tone controls, hence seeming way more bassy http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne..._100_schem.pdf

    The trick is to know what to look for / understanding what's written

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    I wish I'd known about 10%, 30% tapers before: might have saved an awful lot of time & consternation (should you be right that this might have done the trick re. excessive bass) but then if others say the circuit is just inherrantly bassy.. then nothing wrong with my amp; its just the circuit.
    I hope this purchase isn't going to turn out to be an expensive mistake

    Most of the amps you are considering have similar circuits which have a frequency response as below so it's no wonder they are bass heavy. I think it is normal to turn down the bass and turn up the treble to get a usable tone from this circuit. If you adjust the tone with your ears rather than your eyes it won't matter whether the pots are lin or 10% log as the range adjustment is the same. The log pot settings just look better that's all.

    Before you sell your DR and spend a lot of money try changing the DR's input stage 25u cathode bypass caps to 1u (polyanything caps will do) to reduce its bass. I like to have a Matchless/ Orange FAC tone switch to keep the bass under control but it's not simple to add to a DR.

    fender-tone-stack.png
    Last edited by Dave H; 10-05-2017 at 09:08 PM.
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    Hi Dave H- "I hope this purchase isn't going to turn out to be an expensive mistake"

    well why do you say that? by doing this thread I'm trying to mitigainst exactly this. Im trying to get all the knowledge before I buy a proper amp. I dont call any RI or homebuild as a proper amp, beit fancypants builders charging through the nose or any RI. They just don't sound like the real Mccoy. Night & day. You should know this.. I know you do.

    Thx but the graph means absolutely nothing to me but a curve with a dip in it & some numbers at the side!

    Im not changing the DR now. Its stock (works as it should, & quiet no hum) so that's the way it will be sold within ~a week. Its already behind me. It looks the bllx tho: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1626959103...84.m1554.l2649

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    Hi Dave H- "I hope this purchase isn't going to turn out to be an expensive mistake"

    well why do you say that?
    Because you already have an amp which you say is working as it should but it's not working for you and now you are selling it to buy a similar one with the same circuit
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    Oh do come along DaveH. A similar one with the same circuit.. is not the same one with the same components!! or there wouldn't be RI's worth only £500 & originals worth £1.5k!! my amp sounds nothing -in any way shape or form- like an original 68 deluxe reverb. Nothing remotely close. You know that it doesn't. So why ask this Q???

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    OP, what volumes do you play at? Do you play in a band, with a drummer? Do you like and want natural tube break up? Do you need a fairly loud clean signal to keep up with the band some times?
    Who are your musical influences? What type of music do you play? All these are important questions to help you decide which vintage amp is the right one for you.
    I've got, and had a few I can tell you about:




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    No self built sounds a patch on an original DR is my point. None (not mine bc its 'compromised' or anything whatsoever is at fault with it- its a good DR according to Rift. But a good repro).

    Speakers? for another thing are completely different even if they have the same looking 'jensen'/ frames & stickers. Modern ones sound utterly sh*te & not even in same ballpark regarding clarity/ highs/ tone etc to a [good] orig.. how on earth could mine even be compared? no they just can't

    again- you know this too: so why ask that Q? perplexing. So you're effectively saying I should consider an RI just as much as an orig.. bc they have the same circuit?!?

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    keithb7- thats just showing off! you total & utter bastard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    keithb7- thats just showing off! you total & utter bastard.
    I showed the pics to qualify my experience with vintage Fender amps. No internet false statements here about what amp works for what. I have been through a few.

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    Here we go again...
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    When the going gets weird... The weird turn pro!

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    Okay, I have a few questions and comments, if you don't mind. I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but there are some basic facts about Fenders to keep in mind as you seek out this "dream amp" & "x factor."

    You mention the Fenders from 68-71. Did you know these are some of the most reviled circuits in Fender's history, according to many players? Now, I've only ever played one Fender from that period with its original circuit UNMODOFIED. I <LOVED> the sound of that amp. But it was supposed to be the "worst Fender ever..."

    Now, each individual amp will be different. Every. Single. One. Ten Deluxe Reverbs (for example) will sound completely different. So - don't chase down a particular model. Play as many amps as possible, find the one you love, and buy THAT ONE. As has been mentioned, they all have very similar circuits.

    What that graph is showing is, Fenders are BASS-HEAVY. Even if your DR clone is too bass-heavy, there are several cheap parts you can change out to cut the amount of bass that makes it to the speaker. That said, every vintage Fender has the same tone cap values, for all intents and purposes. ALL of them, if not modified or having other problems, will do the same thing. Fender Fart is a way of life, from Tweeds to Silverfaces. Mod the amp accordingly, turn the knobs to odd positions, or deal with it.

    Speakers can make or break an amp. Period.

    And, how many "original Fenders" are left, anyway? All that said, I lean towards the Pro Reverb, myself. But to me, it sounds like you want a vintage non-Master Volume Marshall with 4x10"s...

    Justin
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGonz78 View Post
    Here we go again...
    oh for goodness sake- a post to do nothing but get attention. PLEASE please just dont bother on this thread gonz. if you think about it its just a waste of your/ others' time if you can't contribute isn't it? thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by keithb7 View Post
    I showed the pics to qualify my experience with vintage Fender amps. No internet false statements here about what amp works for what. I have been through a few.
    I know.. I was winding you up. You bastard! wonderful amps- you lucky chap.

    So, does my thread make any sense to you Keith? or do you agree with Dave H that there's little point as Im "just selling one DR for another".
    Last edited by Sea Chief; 10-05-2017 at 10:34 PM.

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    Where's the Bassman head?

    That, and, I want to punch you. I'm jealous. Nice work!

    Justin
    "Are you practicing in the lobby of the municipal library? It's still a guitar amp and it SHOULD make some noise (!!!)" - Chuck H. -
    "When receiving a shock I emit a strange loud high pitched girlish squeak." - Alex R -
    "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Posting photos of your gear collection on the internet is just asking for trouble.
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    BF Bassman & Bandmaster I have forgotten. Bassman..I hate the name! (Basshunter.. I hate more tho).

    Keith, I do like to play in the 4-6 zone of a DR as a rough guide/ squelching out d.boon chords if I can.. great fun. But equally as important is a well sustained, complex clean with deep dark reverb.

    I don't play too loud, its not for band use (but some power useful in case of a jam).. as I do use a DIY attenuator to get into the goodies @ 4-6 volume. I know its sacriledge but it just works pretty well.. I dime it @ 8-10 rarely.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    ... my amp sounds nothing -in any way shape or form- like an original 68 deluxe reverb. Nothing remotely close. You know that it doesn't. ...
    My guess is that if you plugged the speaker/cab of one into the chassis of the other (and set the knobs by ear rather than to a number), the tones would follow the cab.
    If memory serves, RG Keen has described how frustrating it is that 2 apparently identical combos coming from production can sound somewhat different, and on investigation, the difference seems to be due to the cabs/speakers.
    My guess is that your DR may have JJ 6V6 / your cab hasn't got a fully open back / it's heavier, deeper and more rigid than an equivalent BF cab / the speakers in it have bigger magnets than in an equivalent BF cab?
    Note that BF circuits intended for use with a separate speaker cab generally use a 500pF (rather than 1nF) coupling cap between preamp and power amp
    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdf64 View Post
    My guess is that if you plugged the speaker/cab of one into the chassis of the other (and set the knobs by ear rather than to a number), the tones would follow the cab.
    If memory serves, RG Keen has described how frustrating it is that 2 apparently identical combos coming from production can sound somewhat different, and on investigation, the difference seems to be due to the cabs/speakers.
    My guess is that your DR may have JJ 6V6 / your cab hasn't got a fully open back / it's heavier, deeper and more rigid than an equivalent BF cab / the speakers in it have bigger magnets than in an equivalent BF cab?
    Note that BF circuits intended for use with a separate speaker cab generally use a 500pF (rather than 1nF) coupling cap between preamp and power amp
    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
    You know if you were buying a vintage car you'd drive everyone of them before plunking down the cash. Since you want original What options do you have that you can go and kick the tires on? It seems a lot of your complaints on the amps you have could easily be addressed by a good tech.( Bassiness treble, etc.)
    You've got to know what you want, For me a nasty tweed deluxe with some slide action is the sound I love.

    nosaj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    keithb7- thats just showing off! you total & utter bastard.
    No name calling Please! And don't imply that was a joke! It's not funny!
    Technicians Run the World, but Bankers, Lawyers, and Accountants, Take All The Credit!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Posting photos of your gear collection on the internet is just asking for trouble.
    I am not asking for trouble.

    I grow tired of people shouting out their favourite "advice of the week" on forums. Usually the best amp to own is the one they just bought. Or the one they are lusting over. I have read so many remarks where people tell you what they think you need to hear from an amp. Again, I posted my gear pics to try and gather some credibility about things I say on line. I'm not 15. I have owned several models of vintage amps. I have put time into Les Pauls, Strats, Teles, ES-335 whatever. It makes no difference. I know what those guitars do for me. What they do for you, only your ears can tell you that.

    Amp sounds and tones are totally subjective. What you might be be looking for in an amp could be totally different than someone else. It's useless to try and tell you what you need. It's best to stick with actual experience and facts. Eliminate emotions, mojo, and other subjective things.

    In my experience, if the vintage Fender amp has reverb and vibrato, when clean to me they all have the same basic tone structure. That clean infamous Fender sound. Turning them up, things get different. Different tubes, speakers, cab size, output power, and more affect the tones of these amps. The same could be said about most all Fender 50's tweed amps. They dirty up quite similarly in my opinion. The volume level when the amp breaks up is a big differentiator. The speaker configurations. The cab dimensions. Closed and open back. The size of the transformers. The type and quantity of power tubes. These are major components that effect the amp's tone.

    I would not sell a SFDR and buy another SFDR hoping it'll be quite different. I would probably tend to experiment with the SFDR and find the tones I want. Make sure it's healthy, and bias set properly. A good tune up may be in order. Speaker swaps help a lot as mentioned. Tube amps are analog. Each component can swing above or below build specs by quite a bit. Especially as they age. I would expect that rarely two same model amps will sound identical, but should really sound quite similar. Sea, if your 68 DR sounds nothing like a 68 DR should, something is wrong with it.

    I'm not sure what the "X-factor" is that was referenced. Personally I don't find vintage Fender amps bass-y. However as you can see, Vox or Marshall, or any other manufacturer are not really on my radar. I have limited experience with other vintage amp brands to compare.

    I agree that knob setting numbers mean very little. I set up an amp based on what I hear. The dial numbers mean little when I'm comparing amps. At one time I owned a 1966 Deluxe Reverb. It sounded awesome. Then I picked up a 1971 Vibrolux Reverb. I was torn which was better to keep. The BF DR was such a coveted amp. It was original. The 71 VR was rated much lower by Joe Public. I closed my eyes and listened. The two sounded very similar in many ways. In the end the '71 VR is still in my collection and used regularly. The 1966 DR was sold and the funds were used to get something totally different sounding than the VR.

    Sea Chief I won't advise you what amp is best for you. I recommend you don't stop at one amp. Try many. As many as you can. Picking one model to buy today is not necessarily a mistake. Buy whatever you can at the right price. Test it. If you decide to sell it, you should do ok.

    In my opinion, a Brown PR or DR is a very tonally different amp compared to a SF/SF Reverb/Vibr type Fender amp. It appears you have some work to do to settle in on the tones and features you want from an amp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    No name calling Please! And don't imply that was a joke! It's not funny!
    hahaha!! good to read this 1st thing AM.. hilarious!

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    Keith, thanks for the info there. Nothing wrong with my DR as Ive said countless times & I will not say again. The bass issue I have seems -unfathomably- to be only me that gets this, if I see the same trait in amp after amp. My DR has been tone tested "excellent sounding DR" by one of the best amp builders in Europe. Ive said this 3 times now. From then to now it is --exactly-- unchanged. It is in perfect working order. I wouldn't be selling it if I had -any- inclination it wasn't healthy. But that doesn't in any way shape or form on this earth mean it can compete even in the same race with an original 68 DR. A repro is an approximation, with entirely different mfr components of vastly different age, as is an RI. How could they compare?

    When you refer to the 66 DR vs the V'Lux reverb..interesting.. now THATS what I'm after/ need info on.

    Ok then let me ask my Q's another way: can anyone else give their opinions then, on their favourite vintage fender. Why. What are the best years to look for. What are the best bang for buck vintage amps. What to look out for/ things to bear in mind. Etc. All contenders have been mentioned.

    I need help in choosing a vintage fender- can you help with your opinions please? (not on the amp Im selling!). Cheers SC

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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    You know if you were buying a vintage car you'd drive everyone of them before plunking down the cash. Since you want original What options do you have that you can go and kick the tires on? It seems a lot of your complaints on the amps you have could easily be addressed by a good tech.( Bassiness treble, etc.)
    You've got to know what you want, For me a nasty tweed deluxe with some slide action is the sound I love.

    nosaj
    Very good point. But the reason I ask in depth as to opinions is because there are no 'garage forecourts' of fender vintage amps (so the car analogy doesn't work).. I'm way out in the sticks, west wales, & there will likely be NO opportunity to even try the amp I buy. "Well I wouldn't buy it then".. understood, but then I can't buy a vintage fender. Thankfully with Youtube, at least I could conceivably ask the seller to let me hear it. Within 15 secs I know whether its a vintage fender with the X-factor, as I'd expect say a 68 DR to have, or just 'a guitar amp' (which doesn't interest me spending even £50, let alone £1k) whereby my DR or an RI would be just as good (bad relative to a real, vintage fender).

    Im trying to gather max info.. do extra-searching as to what I want/ need/ which is the best avenue, which are the best deals, what is the value/ price I should expect. Etc.

    So far Keith's comparing of a 68 DR & a 71 V'lux R chimes with me the most. But I need more info chaps please, if you would.

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    A couple of the best values in vintage Fender amps are the Bandmaster series. From BF through to SF. They are a decent amp. Well built. They sell for pretty low prices. A Bassman head is another. They sell pretty low compared to Reverb equipped amps. The SF Bassman head is often a good buy. Look for Drip edge models. Even better, drip edge models with the thin black vertical lines that are on the face plate. These are the early SF models, and are often BF circuits inside.

    Right now, at least over here in North American the Princeton Reverb, Deluxe Reverb are all the rage. Demanding high prices. From 64 to about 1978. Everybody wants want small, portable, light reverb/trem equipped vintage Fenders. I'd stay away if what I really wanted to great tone at a decent price. The bigger the amps the cheaper they are. I have purchased SF Twin Reverb amps for really great low, low prices. The Twin R up to 1974 would be a great buy. Ignore the master volume, leave it on 10. They sound excellent. Amazing value for the current prices. The Super Reverb is another example. Prices continue to fall. My 1971 Reverb sounded awesome.

    Sea Chief I am not sure where you are located. I can give you some examples in Canadian dollars. You covert if you like. However, then there's shipping to deal with.
    Locally I bought a 1973 Twin Reverb in very good condition for $300 Canadian. No freight.
    I bought a 1971 Super Reverb for $600 Canadian, locally. No freight.
    I bought my 1971 Vibrolux Reverb for $400 Canadian. Locally. No freight.
    I bought a 1977 UL Twin Reverb for $300 Canadian. Locally. No freight.

    Nobody wanted the big ones it seems. I am again, not trying to brag here. But provide examples. Prices for big SF amps are in the tank. These deals did not come easy. I worked hard to find them and it took quite some time to round them up.

    My 1964 Bandmaster came from North Virginia USA. These are also great deal amps as mentioned. I payed more as it is a BF model.

    I service my own amps and often buy them sick or broken. I get help on this forum in the amp repair section. It is my belief that if you are not well versed in vintage amps, what to look for, how authenticate them, how to fix them, you should probably
    stay out of the market. Expect to be taken for a ride by a seller who thinks his rat nest, dog pissed on broken Princeton Reverb is worth a fortune, because he saw asking prices on Reverb.com

    I always have to service the amps I buy, as they are usually original. I am a player. It may look like I collect vintage amps, but I play them all. I gig them all. They are not pristine amps that sit untouched. I play them often. So if I have to replace a transformer I don't care. I do it myself and play the amp.

    Personally, I think it is hard to go wrong with a SF Vibrolux Reverb. To my ears it's got that Fender tone. It sounds amazing. The circuit remained virtually unchanged through the 1970's. There are no bad SF years to avoid in my opinion. Awesome reverb. Not too heavy. Loud enough for a band. I'd avoid paying high prices for a BF model. The SF gets the job done just fine.
    Last edited by keithb7; 10-06-2017 at 04:23 PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithb7 View Post
    Personally, I think it is hard to go wrong with a SF Vibrolux Reverb. To my ears it's got that Fender tone. It sounds amazing. The circuit remained virtually unchanged through the 1970's. There are no bad SF years to avoid in my opinion. Awesome reverb. Not too heavy. Loud enough for a band. I'd avoid paying high prices for a BF model. The SF gets the job done just fine.
    I see what you mean about the Blackface. It's more than twice the price of the Silverface!

    Silverface

    Blackface

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    Keith I'm west wales.. & there's nothing for 200m away. basically Im in the worst place to shop for one of these! this is the reason I'm doing the thread- if I can nail down the one I think best to go for, I might have to persuade the seller to post it. Thats w'out trying it. I know. So I aim to just get the best/ most info 1st.. & go from there, see what happens.

    The V'lux sounds good.. but I'm concerned about the high 35w. My DR at 22w is monster loud enough.. actual;y probably about right if I were to find some jamming beings to faff with (quite possible, once Ive got the amp in toe & Im buzzing with it/ a great amp just makes you play better/ play more.. its an instrument itself, if it -dfoes- have the fender X-factor Im on about (btw all yours will have it- its quite simply why you bought them!!).

  33. #33
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    Sea Chief, just so I am clear: You have a clone of a SF DR. Correct? It is not working for you. Too bass-y. No real Fender sparkle or X-Factor. Correct? You like the 22W size and power. You want better from it. So you are interested in an original vintage Fender amp. If that's correct, I am sorry. Somehow I missed that you had a repro DR amp. Sounds like you have found a power requirement you like. Going down means a Princeton Reverb. Going up is Vibrolux Reverb. Same power means a DR. Now I get it I think.

    You are considering selling your repro DR, and buying an original vintage DR, or similar. If you like DR power, and are missing the sparkle, then yes it sort of makes sense to sell the repro Dr and find an original. I get where you are going.

    You may like my assortment of home brew amp demos. I have the same You Tube ID. Keithb7 I have done several comparisons and posted them. Sorry I am not a sound engineer, the sound quality could be greatly improved.
    Go here for some vintage Fender entertainment. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=keithb7

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    ...The V'lux sounds good.. but I'm concerned about the high 35w. My DR at 22w is monster loud enough..
    Just to check that you're aware of the relevant physics -

    1dB is smallest change that can be reliably detected by the senses of a regular human? Have a play with Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference

    35W is 2dB more than 22W.

    the sound pressure level we perceive is the product of amp power and speaker efficiency.

    doubling the number of speakers will increase SPL by 3dB, though the actual implementation of that will generally make it more of a low end reality, eg low mids/bass, ie so a cab with 2 speakers will be louder and have a stronger low end than a cab with one (as ever, all else remaining equal).

    Also, it looks like by the mid 70s, J (35%) taper pots were used for bass controls http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...-bmstr_rev.pdf rather than the 10% pots of the BFs and earlier SFs.
    So it may be that you would find an amp from that era onwards too bassy (at control settings you would like to use).
    Last edited by pdf64; 10-07-2017 at 01:25 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdf64 View Post
    My guess is that if you plugged the speaker/cab of one into the chassis of the other (and set the knobs by ear rather than to a number), the tones would follow the cab.
    Or pretty damn close.

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf64 View Post
    If memory serves, RG Keen has described how frustrating it is that 2 apparently identical combos coming from production can sound somewhat different, and on investigation, the difference seems to be due to the cabs/speakers.
    Mostly cabs and speakers for sure. But there is also component tolerance, layout, tubes, transformers, etc. These things can all effect variance on a design. I've experienced this first hand building amps based on prototype circuits with these changes occurring for one reason or another. But even then the difference isn't a deal breaker. Or even a detriment really. It's just a difference. Different doesn't mean bad. Worse means bad. To say that one amp doesn't sound the same as another implies nothing about the quality of the tone of either amp. And it should hardly matter anyway because due to low component tolerance stringencies and changes made through the early SF years at Fender you would be hard pressed to find two amps that actually sound the same. So how can the quality of the tone from these amps be defined at all?

    I'm with Justin. SC should play amps in his target arena that are for sale at every opportunity and then buy the one that makes him chubby.
    Justin Thomas likes this.
    "The man is an incompetent waste of human flesh. He should donate his organs now to someone who might actually make good use of them." The Dude re: maybe I shouldn't say, but his name rhymes with Trump

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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