Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 69
Like Tree69Likes

Thread: The cost of gear, some interesting data

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    112

    The cost of gear, some interesting data

    I ran across this article on the original Fender Harvard amps from Vintage Guitar magazine a while ago and was thinking about the prices of amps then and now. They give the price structure of the Fender 1959 lineup as Champ: $59, Princeton: $79, Harvard: $99, Deluxe: $129, and Vibrolux: $139. When you look at those prices and see what good amps cost these days it seems outrageous how much amps cost now, but if you factor in inflation those amps were actually really expensive compared to a modern amp, especially on the low end models. Using this inflation calculator for those prices you get Champ: $500, Princeton: $670, Harvard: $839, Deluxe: $1100, Vibrolux: $1180 in today's dollars. Without getting into a macroeconomics and monetary policy fight about inflation, those Champ and Princeton amps were not at all inexpensive. Today you can get a starter amp, guitar, case, strap, and picks for $100. Now, you can perhaps rightly say that the new cheap stuff is really cheap and poorly made, but I've seen some really crappy gear from the 60's as well, so they were trying to cut costs then as well. I wonder how access to more affordable gear changes how society approaches music. More people can afford to get an instrument, but it doesn't necessarily mean that more will do something interesting with it. Maybe all of those end up in landfills instead of getting tucked into a closet for a grandkid to discover and fall in love with.

    Anyway, that is my random thought for today.

    Have a great Friday!
    Greg

  2. #2
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    9,255
    True.
    Those amps were "expensive" because they were made in USA, with USA salaries and USA made parts.
    Ok, Leo relied a lot on Mexican workers, but I guess they were not "illegal" and must have received a maybe smaller salary (70 % ?) but that does not account for the huge difference.
    And modern parts are made by the millions, in high speed automatic factories, and for an excellent price.

    But in any case, real cost of things should be measured in "work time needed to buy them"

    If a Champ costs $500 today and your salary is $4000 as a car factory worker, it cost 1/2 week.
    If car factories close and you earn U$2000 at Mc D or Wal Mart, a $250 Champ still costs 1/2 week.

    Just a simplified example, with made up salaries nicely divisible by 500 to show that "the number printed on a green back paper" does not tell the whole Truth.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  3. #3
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Dogpatch-on-Hudson
    Posts
    4,344
    After adjusting for inflation, at least some of the difference in prices can be explained by "hand built, ptp wired by skilled labor" then, vs "robot built PC boards, amp assembled by low-skilled, meagerly paid labor" now.

    Engineering and build quality, not just amps but everything, seems to have taken a turn for the worse in the 60's & 70's. Earlier it was "build it so it won't break." Lately "build it cheap as you can" with planned obsolescence accepted as part of the deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Fahey
    Ok, Leo relied a lot on Mexican workers, but I guess they were not "illegal" and must have received a maybe smaller salary (70 % ?) but that does not account for the huge difference.
    My understanding is the ptp circuit boards were stuffed 'n soldered in Tijuana, and I'll bet the workers there were paid a fraction what US workers were. Maybe a dime an hour in the 50's - 60's. At assembly in Fullerton or other LA area plants, workers likely got a "fair" wage for labor at the time say 50 - 75 cents an hour. Not unusual to find Mexican-American US citizen labor in California, as the border moved even if they didn't, Mexican Cession of 1845. Generations later they are still a perfectly legal component of California's population.
    Last edited by Leo_Gnardo; 10-20-2017 at 08:28 PM.
    J M Fahey likes this.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    112
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Engineering and build quality, not just amps but everything, seems to have taken a turn for the worse in the 60's & 70's. Earlier it was "build it so it won't break." Lately "build it cheap as you can" with planned obsolescence accepted as part of the deal.
    And these are changes that were made based on market forces. People want cheap goods, and that is what they give us. People complain about "nobody makes things in the US" or "people don't build quality things" but if you ask them if they will pay more for US made or high quality the answer is almost always no.
    Justin Thomas and J M Fahey like this.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    28,257
    One needs to separate the mass market stuff from the pro stuff. A working musician does not buy a $99 Strat-Pak, with amp, cord and guitar PLUS gig bag. And conversely, few people buy their kid a $1200 amp head for their middle school guitar wannabee's first rig. The parents see a $99 pricetag on something they know nothing of, and they might buy it. $500 on such a kit, and they pass.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    A working musician does not buy a $99 Strat-Pak, with amp, cord and guitar PLUS gig bag.
    Unless they are a real punk band - that sounds exactly like the sort of thing true punks would do!

    Most people with functioning ears would agree that the amp that comes with the $99 Strat-Pak sounds utterly awful. The guitar is probably playable, but not much fun. But I have met at least two working musicians whose guitar of choice was just a step or two away from the Strat-Pak: either a Squier Standard Stratocaster, or a Squier Deluxe Stratocaster, both somewhere in the $250 USD range at the time.

    Both these Squire models have full-width necks, full-thickness bodies, excellent factory setups, and the Deluxe has good pickups, too (the Standard is a bit low-output and squeaky-clean). Both guitars are entirely adequate instruments for any good guitarist who wants something Fenderish, in the same way that a Honda Accord is an entirely adequate vehicle for anyone looking for good, reliable transportation.

    Neither of those musicians had cheap solid-state amps, though...they knew better!

    -Gnobuddy
    Justin Thomas likes this.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    112
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    One needs to separate the mass market stuff from the pro stuff.
    Was a Champ considered "pro stuff?" Actually asking, that is quite a bit before my time. Looking at a Silvertone catalog (which I would consider "mass market") from 1959 the cheapest amp was $25, which is $212 in today's dollars.

    Also, looking at the little 3 watt Teisco/Melody amp I'm working on (probably from around the same time) I don't know that the quality on the mass market stuff then was any better than stuff today. It was just a lot simpler design.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    28,257
    glebert, I was referring to the current climate of marketing. The Champ was a good quality amp in its day. Some of that old Silvertone stuff was in cabinets made of essentially cardboard.

    gnobuddy, I myself have an appreciation for ultra cheap junk instruments. I often stopped in the Kmart aisle and strummed the idiotically cheap guitars, and I am sure some garbage amp makes a real endearing tone. But those punk bands that purposely buy junk are not driving the market, they are just a teeny tiny fringe. If I buy a $40 guitar to have fun with, I can't ignore that the bass guitar I recently sold went for $2800.
    glebert likes this.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  9. #9
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    4,389
    I'll add: Technological advancements have made it so that you can get a lower cost instrument that plays as good as something that used to be hand made. Just because it's hand made, doesn't always make it better. Of course there are exceptions. As examples, a neck formed by hand unless very skilled labor will not be any better than one formed by a CNC machine and the CNC version is much cheaper. It used to be I wouldn't buy a cheap drum set. These days with computer cut and formed shells, it's hard to get something more accurately built. My point is that, just because it's cheaper, it's not necessarily lesser quality across the board.
    J M Fahey, Gnobuddy and glebert like this.
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

  10. #10
    Old Timer Tom Phillips's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    3,363
    I remember picking out my first electric guitar and student amp. There was one store in town that had the Fender dealership and a couple of other stores that sold lower end brands as well as "band" instruments. The general feeling among the newbe / wannabe guitar players was that the Fender equipment was way more expensive and we didn't understand why. The $60 something champ was even smaller than the $29 no name amp. The no name amp had what looked like just as shinny chrome and even had more controls. So...most of us ended up with the no name guitar AND amp for less than the cost of just the Fender Champ and we still had enough change to buy a 15 cent McDonald's hamburger with a 10 cent coke.
    glebert likes this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    28,257
    Brief tangent:
    McDonalds - "47 cents for a three course meal"

    Which was a hamburger, fries, and a shake.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  12. #12
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    4,389
    Three course meal = Vodka, Kahlua, Cream.

    (apologies for )
    J M Fahey, rjb and g1 like this.
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Technological advancements have made it so that you can get a lower cost instrument that plays as good as something that used to be hand made.
    Oh, I agree completely. A lot of musicians don't, though; between being right-brain-dominant, and having "you get what you paid for" drummed into them for years, many believe that the more expensive the instrument, the better it sounds. Not just when it comes to guitars, either - remember the infamous 2010 research study on Stradivarius violins that concluded modern violins were better? There's been a follow-up ( https://www.thestrad.com/blind-teste...ts/994.article ), but I'm betting 'Strads won't become any cheaper as a result.

    -Gnobuddy
    Chuck H and The Dude like this.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    I myself have an appreciation for ultra cheap junk instruments.
    I know what you mean, I strum the First Act kids acoustic guitars that end up in the thrift stores for $10 a few months after Christmas. And I have heard an African musician who brought tears to my eyes with the beauty of his music, using only his voice, and a little thumb-piano ( https://australianmuseum.net.au/mbir...iano-of-africa ).

    I am not sure exactly what it was that made that man's music so moving, but it certainly wasn't the price of his musical instrument.

    -Gnobuddy
    J M Fahey and glebert like this.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    28,257
    Four food groups:
    Grease, starch, chocolate, and pickles.
    The Dude and glebert like this.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  16. #16
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chicago, USA
    Posts
    3,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Four food groups:
    Grease, starch, chocolate, and pickles.
    No, no, no. Everyone knows that the four food groups are:

    Fat, Salt, Alcohol and Caffeine.

    (a cameo appearance just for the sake of a good argument)
    J M Fahey likes this.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

  17. #17
    Senior Member Malcolm Irving's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Derbyshire
    Posts
    258
    To celebrate the 60th anniversary of VOX and 25 years ownership by KORG, they are bringing out a special limited edition AC30, hand-wired in the UK. It uses turret boards (the long narrow ones that look like tag-boards) and has Celestion alnico silver speakers (also made in the UK). Price Ģ3749 (equivalent to $4945).
    Seems a lot of money, but might be a good investment if you wrap it in bubble-wrap and leave it in a climate-controlled vault. Or you could gig with it until the Tolex starts to peel off for that vintage look.

  18. #18
    rjb
    rjb is offline
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Somewhere near Bawlmer, Merlin
    Posts
    2,145
    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    No, no, no. Everyone knows that the four food groups are:

    Fat, Salt, Alcohol and Caffeine.
    BASIC food groups are:
    Fat, Salt, Sugar and Caffeine.
    You can make alcohol from sugar, but not vice-versa.
    Just like you can live in your car, but you can't drive your house.

    -rb
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is deemed mad.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    112
    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    BASIC food groups are:
    Fat, Salt, Sugar and Caffeine.
    You can make alcohol from sugar, but not vice-versa.
    Just like you can live in your car, but you can't drive your house.

    -rb
    Some of us don't have that kind of time on our hands.
    The Dude likes this.

  20. #20
    g1
    g1 is offline
    don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Canada, somewhere north of Fargo
    Posts
    8,858
    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    BASIC food groups are:
    Fat, Salt, Sugar and Caffeine.
    You can make alcohol from sugar, but not vice-versa.
    Just like you can live in your car, but you can't drive your house.

    -rb
    Sez you.



    shed-road_potd_3590381k.jpg
    Certified Dotard

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Irving View Post
    Price Ģ3749 (equivalent to $4945)...might be a good investment...
    As more and more musicians from the rock-n-roll era head to their final great gig in the sky, I really wonder if, or for how long, products like this Vox anniversary edition might hold their value.

    Like many here, I've repeatedly been turned off by kazoo-sounding "amp models" using digital signal processing, but they are slowly getting better, and less kazoo-like. This one (Atomic Amplifire 12) is $800 USD, one-fifth of the price of that $5000 anniversary Vox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqF-m70fwdA

    I am not the target market for that $5000 Vox (it's probably aimed at middle-aged doctors, dentists, and lawyers with well padded bank accounts), but if I was forced to choose between the $5000 Vox and the $800 digital thingummajigger, I'd get the fake digital one.

    Luckily for me, I can build my own valve guitar amps for a fraction of the price of the Atomic Amplifire, so I'm not faced with that quandary!

    -Gnobuddy
    J M Fahey likes this.

  22. #22
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    9,255
    Quote Originally Posted by glebert View Post
    Some of us don't have that kind of time on our hands.
    Some do

    I used to follow posts by a guy called SM0VPO (or something like that), VERY resourceful, published lots of killer simple RF projects, transmitters and receivers, and practical stuff , including homemade PCBs, even created a series of symbols allowing to make cool very compact PCBs on ... Paint!!!!

    Fact is, he was a Technical Sergeant in the RAF, and spent years in Saudi Arabia maintaining Radar systems, Aviation electronics, Communications, etc. and he was practically locked inside the Base.
    No question about going downtown to order parts, he had to use the Base official military computer, even less "going to town on weekends to get some fun"

    BIG problem was getting something to drink (besides coffee or mint tea) because alcohol is absolutely forbidden, getting caught with some means prison .... and manufacturing some might mean death, so all Britons there had to be ... um .... creative ... literally.

    *After* he retired and moved to Sweden for good, he published 1001 recipes on brewing "sugar beer/wine" since sugar and yeast are of course freely available, and on flavouring the concoctions to taste somewhat like wine/cider/etc. or to distill it into gin/cognac/vodka/etc.

    The stills were masters of ingenuity, made out of common threaded galvanized pipe which could later be disassembled into innocuous looking plumbing.

    Harry's Homebrew Homepage

    the booze specific page: Index

    bit check his killer projects and ideas.
    Last edited by J M Fahey; 10-21-2017 at 11:56 PM.
    glebert likes this.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  23. #23
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    11,858
    Quote Originally Posted by glebert View Post
    Was a Champ considered "pro stuff?" Actually asking, that is quite a bit before my time. Looking at a Silvertone catalog (which I would consider "mass market") from 1959 the cheapest amp was $25, which is $212 in today's dollars.
    The 1959 Champ was indeed pro stuff. The whole Fender line at that time was pro. You chose the size of amp you wanted based on your volume needs and portability desires. It probably wasn't before the early 60's that Fender even considered their smaller amps to be anything other than pro tools and began to pitch the still popular designs as "student" amps. But "student" then meant you were studious about it. Society and culture were less tolerant of frivolity. So you bought good stuff. Fender never assumed to compete in the budget market before the BF era I think. And I think they always maintained a posture of quality above the "affordable" market. Like Enzo said, some of the actual cheap offerings were made of press board and you can hardly compare a Teisco guitar to a Fender. So... Any additional expense to even those cheapy models were unavoidable because of technology and manufacturing restrictions. Which is really the main reason good quality gear today is so affordable. In the early Holocene it might take you two days to knapp a quality stone blade and haft to a piece of antler. Another relative day of opportunistic foraging time could easily be added for the materials acquisition. Now you can buy a decent knife for a half hours wages. That's maybe 1/100th the price!!! And it will work better, be easier to maintain and last longer. Same principal stretched out 6000 years instead of 60

    EDIT: FWIW in 1981 the Champ was a truly cheap simulacrum of it's predecessor with particle board construction and a cheesy little OT. That's about $444 today. In fact if you follow the Champ price point through it's production you'll find that it actually went down in price relative to inflation with each passing year. But now consider that even in 1981 it was a fairly high quality tool comparatively speaking. Up until that time a guitar amp was something you maintained and kept using. You might spend the cost of the amp on maintenance during it's lifetime. So, $888 for for the rest of your life. Now, to be fair let's work with the same materials and shoot for a respected brand. But also to be fair let's shoot for similar features (or lack thereof). So... An Epiphone or Vox or even a modern Fender product will set you back retail $200. They're made with cheaper materials and in some cases components that don't last as long. They're made on some flimsy boards with board mounted sockets, jacks and pots, plastic switches made with thinner, lower quality plated metals and most have a DNR strapped to their cred (do not repair). I'll guess that for a lifetime of use you'd need to buy four, plus at least a little maintenance like tubes or something. So that ends up being about the same, dudn' it.?.
    Last edited by Chuck H; 10-22-2017 at 03:25 AM.
    eschertron and glebert like this.
    "The man is an incompetent waste of human flesh. He should donate his organs now to someone who might actually make good use of them." The Dude re: maybe I shouldn't say, but his name rhymes with Trump

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  24. #24
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chill-Ville, VA
    Posts
    2,158
    Agree for the most part... probably just a difference in perspective. I saw the Champ indeed as a "student" model and not "pro," but Fender looked farther down the line - where do Pros come from? Students. Give them a good-sounding sturdy "student" amp & guitar and a very positive learning experience, what'll they get when they graduate from the living room to the pub? Another Fender.

    One thing I've always liked about Fender, they never looked at beginners as frivolous or careless. And it's why I tell parents to spend $200 on a Squire instead of $100 on a Wal-Mart special. The other thing being, that Squire can be upgraded over time into a rather fine instrument.

    Justin
    Chuck H and glebert like this.
    "Are you practicing in the lobby of the municipal library? It's still a guitar amp and it SHOULD make some noise (!!!)" - Chuck H. -
    "When receiving a shock I emit a strange loud high pitched girlish squeak." - Alex R -
    "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    The other thing being, that Squire can be upgraded over time into a rather fine instrument.
    I think there is a good case to be made that some Squiers are already rather fine instruments straight out of the cardboard box. The Deluxe, Vintage Modified, and Classic Vibe series fall into this category, IMO. Maybe the Standard too, if you want a really low-output guitar with squeaky-clean tones reminiscent of early Mark Knopfler stuff.

    My experience has been that the Squire models mentioned above have better factory setups and playability than any of the Mexican Fender Stratocasters I've tried in stores.

    -Gnobuddy

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    240
    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    ...spent years in Saudi Arabia...
    I once had a co-worker who was offered a very high-paying job working for a major petroleum company. The catch was that he would be located in Saudi Arabia.

    He told me he thought it over, but the prospect of spending years in a place where you couldn't go out for a drink, couldn't talk to women, couldn't have a party, and might be executed for any one of several offences that are not offences at all to Westerners, was too daunting to contemplate.

    -Gnobuddy
    J M Fahey likes this.

  27. #27
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    11,858
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    One thing I've always liked about Fender, they never looked at beginners as frivolous or careless. And it's why I tell parents to spend $200 on a Squire instead of $100 on a Wal-Mart special. The other thing being, that Squire can be upgraded over time into a rather fine instrument.
    A case for that can be made from a time when Fender started having the Squire line made in Japan. People were so impressed with the quality that they started buying Squires for road work instead of standard Strats and Teles. The following year Fender started having the standards made in Japan to improve the price point and now those guitars are sought after as excellent, not quite collectible used instruments. Ever since then Fender seems to have made a point of keeping the quality of the Squire line above expectations for the price point regardless of country of manufacture. Just one guys observation. I never had a Japanese Squire, but I've played a few and I did have a Japanese Strat. All excellent guitars after a pro setup.

    EDIT: P.S. Looking through some of my lit I see that you're right. Fender was marketing the Champ as a "student" amp as early as 1950! But then, you wouldn't buy a student a Deluxe, would you? It's worth noting that the Champ was still marketed as part of a package with their lap steel guitars as a pro package until well after that though. So we're both right. To a point the Champ was the smallest of pro line and made just like they were (only smaller) for a long time. As the smallest it was also the most affordable, and marketed as such because Fender just didn't make cheap amps. I don't mean to say they were bent on quality. They cut corners wherever they thought they could for sure. They just drew their line in a different place than some other guys and they always intended to offer a product that was of greater value than it's expense in dollars. Where many truly cheap amps were only worth what you paid for them in dollars and perhaps even less in value.
    Last edited by Chuck H; 10-22-2017 at 02:56 AM.
    Justin Thomas likes this.
    "The man is an incompetent waste of human flesh. He should donate his organs now to someone who might actually make good use of them." The Dude re: maybe I shouldn't say, but his name rhymes with Trump

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  28. #28
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    9,255
    FWIW my Son was last year in Orange County (not the main LA city) and told me he wanted to buy a Jazz Bass.
    He was thinking the Mexican one as a good halfway compromise between quality and cost.

    Only problem is that being in a Suburb and quite a few miles away from downtown, his only practical option was a small neighbourhood type GC, probably as small as they one, so not much option, if any at all.

    And he already knows that brand and model alone donīt guarantee much.
    OK, I told him, hang out at the shop , many days if needed, and when a *good* Bass player comes in, ask him for help.

    In 4 or 5 days a Filipino middle aged Bass Player appeared, a real Pro, clearly a Session player or something.
    - "Ok kid, Iīm searching one for my Nephew, Iīll also pick one for you"
    He tried everything available, picked one for himself and gave my Son another.

    - "But ... but ... itīs an *Indonesian* Squire ... I can afford a better one !!!! "
    _ "Boy, THIS is the second best Jazz Bass in this shop, any model, any brand, any price, Iīm picking the best one for me and you buy this Squier for you, donīt let it go, donīt accept another"


    He brought it back, itīs very nicely made but the point is that all Customers who see or play it praise it to high Heaven.
    Not a player so I canīt comment on playability or comfort, but it sure does sound killer .... for all of 300 bucks (plus 150 for a strong case).

    He was somewhat worried about Customs but a long haired tatooed young guy was X Raying his luggage and said, smiling: "looks like somebody is a Slapper !!! go ahead !!!" nothing to complain about
    The Dude and glebert like this.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  29. #29
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Wernersville, PA
    Posts
    11,807
    As far as the Champ goes, I will never understand the reasoning behind that crappy little, toneless, short bandwidth speaker.
    bob p and Chuck H like this.

  30. #30
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    11,858
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    As far as the Champ goes, I will never understand the reasoning behind that crappy little, toneless, short bandwidth speaker.
    No Champ that ever left my bench still had it in place (there have been four). In fact, since all the Champs I've worked over were silvers (so no one cares ) they all got a ten inch speaker. Two got new output transformers. I still have one of the original OT's from a late 70's unit. I may use it for a parallel 12au7 power amp. My concern is that there's just not enough steel there for any bottom end even for a 1W amp!?! We'll see. Otherwise I'll use it as a reverb transformer.
    "The man is an incompetent waste of human flesh. He should donate his organs now to someone who might actually make good use of them." The Dude re: maybe I shouldn't say, but his name rhymes with Trump

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  31. #31
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chill-Ville, VA
    Posts
    2,158
    My 79 has a 20W Emi in it, no idea of model or anything, but it's 4R, so I crank away.

    Justin
    "Are you practicing in the lobby of the municipal library? It's still a guitar amp and it SHOULD make some noise (!!!)" - Chuck H. -
    "When receiving a shock I emit a strange loud high pitched girlish squeak." - Alex R -
    "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

  32. #32
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    11,858
    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    "Boy, THIS is the second best Jazz Bass in this shop, any model, any brand, any price, Iīm picking the best one for me and you buy this Squier for you, donīt let it go, donīt accept another"[/I]
    You have to know he meant it! I mentioned in another thread that my history is peppered with "affordable, used gear". I know it when I hear it and play it. The straight scoop is that wood is such a variable product that WRT solid body instruments you really can't know which one will get the right balance. Good builders/luthiers can get consistently good results, but those special pieces are, to some degree, a matter of chance. I had a Yamaha SBG200 (their cheapest model of that series) that had all kinds if "it" dripping from every poor. I played that guitar until I wore out the frets and pots and gave it away. I wish I would have had it refretted and fixed the electronics now because those pieces are rare and special regardless of provenance.
    "The man is an incompetent waste of human flesh. He should donate his organs now to someone who might actually make good use of them." The Dude re: maybe I shouldn't say, but his name rhymes with Trump

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  33. #33
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chicago, USA
    Posts
    3,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnobuddy View Post
    I once had a co-worker who was offered a very high-paying job working for a major petroleum company. The catch was that he would be located in Saudi Arabia.

    He told me he thought it over, but the prospect of spending years in a place where you couldn't go out for a drink, couldn't talk to women, couldn't have a party, and might be executed for any one of several offences that are not offences at all to Westerners, was too daunting to contemplate.

    -Gnobuddy
    I was solicited for a job in SA by a headhunter. It offered a $500,000 salary, but the social restrictions were tight, as you mentioned. The only place where you could do any of the "Western" things was within the confines of the American residence compound, where nobody else in SA could see it happening ... and even then, you did it at your own risk. I passed.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

  34. #34
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    9,255
    Once I was in a Taxi talking in English with a friend, and to my surprise the driver, who was 100% Native American from our northern provinces answered in perfect fluent American English, Texan English to be precise.
    To my (polite) surprise, he answered: "I am an oil drill operator (in Argentina), was transferred to Houston where I earned twice as much, and then to Saudi Arabia, where I earned 10 times as much ... but couldnīt stand it so after a couple years I came back ..... if you forgive my French: *sheer* lack of c*nt"
    He said there were commuter flights to Egypt or Turkey to relieve "manīs needs" but it was expensive and in any case, only once a Month, so ......
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  35. #35
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    4,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnobuddy View Post
    Oh, I agree completely. A lot of musicians don't, though; between being right-brain-dominant, and having "you get what you paid for" drummed into them for years, many believe that the more expensive the instrument, the better it sounds. Not just when it comes to guitars, either - remember the infamous 2010 research study on Stradivarius violins that concluded modern violins were better? There's been a follow-up ( https://www.thestrad.com/blind-teste...ts/994.article ), but I'm betting 'Strads won't become any cheaper as a result.

    -Gnobuddy
    Interesting read on the Stradivarius study! I can see how that would get the hoity-toity types all up in arms.

    It must be hard to admit that you spent millions on an instrument that can be outdone by a cheaper current model.
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Cost Of Stupidity
    By Ted in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-06-2017, 07:12 AM
  2. Now, how much is that going to cost?
    By Rhodesplyr in forum Lobby
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-05-2017, 05:13 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-20-2013, 06:18 AM
  4. part cost
    By woodyc in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-08-2012, 01:35 AM
  5. The High Cost Of Doing Business.....
    By jrfrond in forum Music Electronics
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-28-2010, 02:24 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •