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Thread: which 6V6 puch pull, tube rectified circuit?

  1. #1
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    which 6V6 puch pull, tube rectified circuit?

    Hello,
    I would need some help. I do build audio amps for 30 years, using tubes in the last 10. These are all for listening music at home.
    Now, my daughter learns to play guitar and I want to build a good combo for her. I want something which is far better than the solid state combo, the best I can make.
    I know it is different than home amp, but I would copy a few things, like
    - no PCBA, use point to point wiring with component leads and pure copper wires. I have a small cnc machine to mill out Al or textile-phenol base
    - I would use a copper U shaped base and textile-phenol based rail for the small components
    - sure I want tube rectifier. Not solid state rectifier.
    - I use single ended A at home, but with this I want push-pull.

    As far as base circuit, I only know that I want 6V6 (maybe 6L6, but not EL34) based pus pull stage at the end, but that is all. I'm looking for a design I can get output transformer for.
    I've looked at Fender AB763, but that is where I'm lost. On this forum and in other places, tons of circuit examples. From another thread here I found this excellent : https://robrobinette.com/Fender_Deluxe_Models.htm it helped me a lot, but still, I do not know which one to build. Sould this be a Fender replica, or something else, I do not know.

    At least for now, she do not like reverb and vibrato effects at all. The more clean she likes more. I will not make much efforts to realize them inside. SHe could add pedals later if she wants to.

    Can you please recommend designs with push pull 6V6/6L6 output and available output transformer? I appreciate if you comment also why.

    I would have also some practical question. First I want to make the amp, play with it, than choose driver and build cabinet. But, it would be good to make the amp base chassis to fit the outer wood frame. I guess I need to select driver for that first, but on the other hand, I guess there are some usual size. Like, what is the Fender box inside diameters?
    Also, do I need shielding on the input tubes? I was looking at pics and I see on some amps, and do not see on others. I guess it is parameter of different things, but in general, do you use shield on input tubes?

    Can you help? I have good experience in home audio, but quite lost here.

    Thanks a lot,
    JG
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  2. #2
    "Thermionic Apocalypse" -JT nickb's Avatar
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    I suggest the 55 5E3 Fender Deluxe for simpliticy. Use the same readily available transformers as the Reverb Deluxe.

    55_(5E3)_Deluxe_Schematic.pdf
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    Thanks, that looks really simple.
    Which transformer would you recommend for this? Like Hammond 1750E ?

    The only thing I'm missing is tone control, but I'm not sure how much is it needed. Maybe I will look at circuits with it, but could be I end up with this one :-)
    Thanks,
    JG

    EDIT* oops, I just realize there is tone control. I'm looking at videos how that works.
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  4. #4
    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    Hammond 290bx Power transformer & the Hammond 1760h output transformer for the 20 watt deluxe reverb type build
    Hammond 290ax power transformer & hammond 1760e or 1750e output transformer for a tweed 5e3 build
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  5. #5
    "Thermionic Apocalypse" -JT nickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    Thanks, that looks really simple.
    Which transformer would you recommend for this? Like Hammond 1750E ?

    The only thing I'm missing is tone control, but I'm not sure how much is it needed. Maybe I will look at circuits with it, but could be I end up with this one :-)
    Thanks,
    JG

    EDIT* oops, I just realize there is tone control. I'm looking at videos how that works.
    The answer to that depends in part on what part of the world you live in. Update your profile with your location.
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  6. #6
    Supporting Member mozz's Avatar
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    I would also say, 5E3. But, it is not the cleanest amp when turned up. For use in a house, it will be loud enough and still clean.
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  7. #7
    "Thermionic Apocalypse" -JT nickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperheadroads View Post
    Hammond 290bx Power transformer & the Hammond 1760h output transformer for the 20 watt deluxe reverb type build
    Hammond 290ax power transformer & hammond 1760e or 1750e output transformer for a tweed 5e3 build
    For Hungary you can get these Hammond parts from https://hu.mouser.com

    If you spend enough, and you will, the shipping is free.

    I'd go for the deluxe reverb transformers. These will be a big expense so can reuse at a later date into a deluxe reverb or something else. The tone controls are a bit limited in the 5e3 but you can modify at a later date if need be.
    Last edited by nickb; 10-23-2017 at 12:25 AM. Reason: Stupid auto correct.. grr...
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  8. #8
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    There hasn't yet been any reference as to what musical genre your daughter is pursuing. The 5e3 is a good amp for many tones, but not a generic amp that could be considered useful for all genres even at a practice level. Something to understand is that guitar amps either are, or are not signal processors. Far removed from any hi fi reproduction type amplifiers. Or not, depending... My point is, knowing what sort of music your daughter wishes to play could influence any suggestions.
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    You can also buy them here, maybe get a better price for some components

    https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Tr...5_530_542.html
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  10. #10
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    I'm with Chuck, and I'd almost argue a later version of the Deluxe might be a better option. Just because a Deluxe Reverb comes with Reverb & Tremolo doesn't mean she has to use them. There was also the Plain Old Dleluxe, that didn't come with Reverb. Or, since it's a build, you can just leave the effects out of the amp and just build either channel. If she likes clean as was indicated, well, how many threads do we read about using to get more headroom out of a 5E3?

    Justin
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  11. #11
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    Thanks a lot for your help!

    The amount of 5E3 is excellent and helps, but I do not say I can not it is must have. TO have a good quality, readable schematics is a must have for me, I can not design tube electronics. To have one with DC voltages on is very good, especially on the push pull stage because I always did before single ended class A outputs. To have a layout is good too, but not a must. It was long time ago when I built oscillators (the intention was amp :-), but I could do again, the layout reduce the risk for sure.

    With all that, a very simple circuit like 5E3 is good, but not a must, if there is reason to go for something else.

    She learns classical guitar, but a friend plays electric and I see here eyes that it is coming. We were on a show a few weeks ago, she was able to try different electric guitars with headphone (by the way, headphone output might be very interesting) and we were just stuck there.

    So, I want to build something good, what can be used for different things. Practicing at home mainly, but to be able to use it on the stage is not useless. The main point now is to enjoy the sould of it and tasting.
    If we would not deal with transformers, the best would be for now to make it in the style like my last headphone amp :
    dsc_0227.jpg

    I mill out this textile phenol base for specific design, point to point wiring under it. It would be a cheap way to try out, but the problem is the transformers, output and power and the fact is that it is not for me, so it has to be boxed well. (do not worry, I never give out an unboxed proto like this headphone amp, only boxed, protected).
    On the power transformer I just learned from your comments that it is available also ready made. That is excellent, because I usually specify it and get it made on toroid or EI core. Much better if I can get that too.
    On the other end, I do not want to complicate it that much that a PCB would be needed. I just do not like PCBAs in tube circuits.

    So, bottom line is, I like the 5E3, but I do not mind to do something more complex if I get more universal combo. I might leave out the reverb, but I might cut out the place for it.

    When you speak about later version, which one? When you say later versions would give more headroom, is that because of the negative feedback?

    If I choose the 1760H, does that determine to use the later version and can not the best for the 5E3 type no negative feedback amp? I see the primary impedance is different, but I do not know what difference it makes in the push pull circuit. FOr sure if possible I would choose the 1760H and make the feedback switchable. I might be biased here with hifi amps, where I prefer no feedback and I know guitar amp is different...

    Regards,
    JG
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    Hello,
    I made a new schematic how I would imagine an AB763 clone with no reverb.jk.jpg
    Can you please look at that?

    I realize, if this circuit is a right choice, than this thread can be redundant because there is a AB763 no reverb thread also. I might join that if I do not disturb that.

    Please comment if you think it is a proper choice.

    Thanks a lot,
    JG
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  13. #13
    "Thermionic Apocalypse" -JT nickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    Hello,
    I made a new schematic how I would imagine an AB763 clone with no reverb.Click image for larger version. 

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    Can you please look at that?

    I realize, if this circuit is a right choice, than this thread can be redundant because there is a AB763 no reverb thread also. I might join that if I do not disturb that.

    Please comment if you think it is a proper choice.

    Thanks a lot,
    JG
    Mostly fine but you have the plates and cathodes of the 6V6's swapped

    If you step away from your desire not to use silicon rectifiers, you could get pretty much the same performance at much lower cost, i.e no tube rectifier and no inductor both big $ items, if you did.
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    Yes, it really is shorted with no speaker plugged in. I don't understand all the electronic reasons why, but what I <DO> know is that it is much better than leaving it completely open circuit when no speaker is plugged in. And the purpose of those shorting or switching Jack's is to prevent that open circuit.

    There are other more complex ways to protect the output transformer in case you forget plug in, but this way has worked for Fender for decades, and they don't have a reputation for blowing transformers, so... the first thing I check now, even before the Volume knob, when there's no sound from my amp is the speaker cables.

    Justin
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    I made a new schematic how I would imagine an AB763 clone with no reverb.Click image for larger version. 

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    Can you please look at that?
    If you want the gain to be similar to the original you need to add the other 220k mixing resistor from the R13/C3 junction to ground. If the resistor isn't fitted the gain will be higher and C5 is redundant.

    The "death" cap and switch are not need with a three prong power cord.

    The bias supply is negative, C16 is the wrong polarity. I'd add a couple of 1 ohm 1% resistors in series with the power tube cathodes for setting the bias current.

    There's a smoothing cap missing after R29.

    Jack wiring looks OK.
    Last edited by Dave H; 10-24-2017 at 02:28 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Hello,
    Thanks a lot! I appreciate your help.
    I have corrected them, also the power tubes I realized it is in reverse.

    On the mixing resistors, I added and agree it is strange this way, but I want the original gain. Maybe an inside potentiometer or a larger trimmer would be the best there.

    Does the Hammond power transformer has mid connection on the 6.3V heater ?

    Thanks,
    JGjl.jpg

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    Hello, ...

    Does the Hammond power transformer has mid connection on the 6.3V heater ?

    Thanks,
    JGClick image for larger version. 

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    No, you'll have to make an artificial center tap with resistors. Fender did this in later amps as well, after CBS tried to get cheap.

    You can get all of the data sheets at Hammond from their web site:

    Chokes:
    Hammond Mfg. - REPLACEMENT & UPGRADES - Tube Guitar Amplifier - Chokes

    OT:
    http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/EDB291BX.pdf

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    Hi JG,

    Just a suggestion, but maybe take a look at fiberglass turret boards made for the Fender AB763 Deluxe Reverb. You can just wire up the circuit you have above, i.e. without tremolo, or reverb, and if your daughter ever gets teh desire for, say, reverb, it would be easy to add later. The more I read about turret boards, the more I like them: easy to install/remove/change components, you get air under the components for heat transfer, you don't have to fiddle around underneath the board, which you might need to do sometimes with eyelet boards.

    Regards,
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    I'm with Chuck, and I'd almost argue a later version of the Deluxe might be a better option. Just because a Deluxe Reverb comes with Reverb & Tremolo doesn't mean she has to use them. There was also the Plain Old Dleluxe, that didn't come with Reverb. Or, since it's a build, you can just leave the effects out of the amp and just build either channel. If she likes clean as was indicated, well, how many threads do we read about using to get more headroom out of a 5E3?

    Justin
    Yeah, and the reverb/tremolo channel has an extra gain stage that is supposed to compensate for the loss of going through the extra effects, but it more than compensates so its higher gain than the non tremolo/reverb channel.

  20. #20
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    Take a look at this. Hard to go wrong if you want the simple Fender sound. http://sluckeyamps.com/misc/AB763_Deluxe_Lite.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac dillard View Post
    Take a look at this. Hard to go wrong if you want the simple Fender sound. http://sluckeyamps.com/misc/AB763_Deluxe_Lite.pdf
    Thanks,
    I made corrections and additions.
    JGjm.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Hi JG,

    Just a suggestion, but maybe take a look at fiberglass turret boards made for the Fender AB763 Deluxe Reverb. You can just wire up the circuit you have above, i.e. without tremolo, or reverb, and if your daughter ever gets teh desire for, say, reverb, it would be easy to add later. The more I read about turret boards, the more I like them: easy to install/remove/change components, you get air under the components for heat transfer, you don't have to fiddle around underneath the board, which you might need to do sometimes with eyelet boards.

    Regards,
    Mike
    I'm not sure to be honest what turret means, but for sure I will not use eyelet boards. I use this style, this is my hifi amp : dsc_1781.jpg
    Thanks!
    Regards,
    JG
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  23. #23
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    I would consider using caps rated for at least 500 V for C12, C13 and C14. Probably would put two 350 V in series for C12/13
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  24. #24
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    A Turret Board has standoff pins mounted to the board.
    turret-board.jpg
    Just another way of doing things.

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    Just for something to look at being as you are in the selection stage, take a look at the Fender 5F6A....This is the baby that really started it all. Great amp. About 40 watts....http://schematicheaven.net/fenderamp...5f6a_schem.pdf
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac dillard View Post
    Take a look at this. Hard to go wrong if you want the simple Fender sound. http://sluckeyamps.com/misc/AB763_Deluxe_Lite.pdf
    I was going to post that pdf until I noticed it was incomplete. The circuit looks complete but the layout is missing the power supply, rectifier tube etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    I'm not sure to be honest what turret means, but for sure I will not use eyelet boards. I use this style, this is my hifi amp : Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks!
    Regards,
    JG
    Beautiful build, JG, you're a real craftsman! I don't know what you call them, but it looks like a turret with a piece of ceramic insulator below that, where the components are connected? WHere do you buy the parts for the metal posts that are attached to your board and the insulators? Nice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Beautiful build, JG, you're a real craftsman! I don't know what you call them, but it looks like a turret with a piece of ceramic insulator below that, where the components are connected? WHere do you buy the parts for the metal posts that are attached to your board and the insulators? Nice!
    Thanks.
    Those things are not ceramic, but some kind of heat resistant plastic. PTFE I thing. dsc_0230.jpg
    It is pressed into 4.2mm holes. On that 2A3 PSE amp I had some wiring under that board. It was made long time ago and with help. In the more recent builds I cut out the plastic sheet much more, to help heat dissipation, air circulation. Like I did on the piece on the picture.
    I have a problem now, I only have about 20 of those left, it is not enough for this amp either, I need to source them.
    Now I know the turret board and understand it is custom made. That helps, but I thing I will cut out my own, I just need to get the pins into it.

    Regards,
    JG
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    Those things are not ceramic, but some kind of heat resistant plastic. PTFE
    I only have about 20 of those left, it is not enough for this amp either, I need to source them.
    Try searching for PTFE insulated terminals. Are they like these?
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    Try searching for PTFE insulated terminals. Are they like these?
    Similar, but one end is an eyelet, or maybe that is a wrong word, flat with a hole, the other end is a slot. I use the slot more.

    Regards,
    JG

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    I had a chance to listen and try a second combo, and, honestly, I have to say for me this 6V6/6L6 is a dead end probably. From all the articles, posts and youtube videos (I know, I know, do not judge on poor microphoned sound through youtube in headphones ...), so I thought the 6V6/6L6 is the way to go. Well, we had a chance to try a Vox AC15 and it made me re think the concept and go to the no feedback. I realized in general I like the Vox type sound better than a Fender sound. I know it is a sweeping statement, and please forgive me for that, I have very tiny experience with guitar amps.
    I really appreciate all your help and I'm sorry. This all was not useless at all and I appreciate your contribution. This forum is great.
    At the moment I do not know where to go. The sound I'm looking for is when the AC15 overdriven and when it is clean. I did not know -probably basic for you- that this overdrive is ages better -at least for my taste- than the distorsion pedal. At least what we tried.
    Another thing is that I knew 12W is a lot. I have a 9W hifi amp and it is plenty in the room. Still, this 12W on a pretty sensitive Celestion speaker, it is a lot. Even more than I thought.
    Now, I'm looking for what smaller one to make. Or make an AC15 clone, or back to the 5E3. No vibrato/termolo for sure.

    Thanks!
    JG

  32. #32
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    Just for the record, my last build, the intended buyer went through every single power tube before correctly guessing 6V6. Not to discount power tube sound, but preamp matters too. A lot.
    He actually guessed EL34 first... KT66, EL84, 6L6, 6V6 in that order.

    Use what you have for the power section & mate the preamp to it. Of course you wouldn't have a clone, but a very nice unique amp. No reason you csan't have an AC15/Deluxe mutant.

    Justin
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  33. #33
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    If you are not having luck with your search terms, also try "insulated standoff" or "standoff terminal".
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  34. #34
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
    I had a chance to listen and try a second combo, and, honestly, I have to say for me this 6V6/6L6 is a dead end probably. From all the articles, posts and youtube videos (I know, I know, do not judge on poor microphoned sound through youtube in headphones ...), so I thought the 6V6/6L6 is the way to go. Well, we had a chance to try a Vox AC15 and it made me re think the concept and go to the no feedback. I realized in general I like the Vox type sound better than a Fender sound. I know it is a sweeping statement, and please forgive me for that, I have very tiny experience with guitar amps.
    I really appreciate all your help and I'm sorry. This all was not useless at all and I appreciate your contribution. This forum is great.
    At the moment I do not know where to go. The sound I'm looking for is when the AC15 overdriven and when it is clean. I did not know -probably basic for you- that this overdrive is ages better -at least for my taste- than the distorsion pedal. At least what we tried.
    Another thing is that I knew 12W is a lot. I have a 9W hifi amp and it is plenty in the room. Still, this 12W on a pretty sensitive Celestion speaker, it is a lot. Even more than I thought.
    Now, I'm looking for what smaller one to make. Or make an AC15 clone, or back to the 5E3. No vibrato/termolo for sure.

    Thanks!
    JG
    Consider that she will need to use the amp in whatever circumstance arises relative what sort of music SHE decides to play. So an amp with a good solid clean tone would be my first choice. That said... EL84's generate more intermodulation distortions than 6V6's (as a generalization). Also consider that if she starts playing with a band it might be good if her amp didn't need to be replaced right away with a louder one. So I'll stay with the vote for 6V6's. They make a louder amp (by a few watts at least) and with more headroom. The zero feedback thing is a particular sound that may not be right for everything. So maybe put it on a pot or a switch. Keep the control layout simple. A good, solid amp can always make use of pedals for more tonal coloration. I think a basic, loud enough type guitar amp would be a good goal without more defining parameters.
    "The man is an incompetent waste of human flesh. He should donate his organs now to someone who might actually make good use of them." The Dude re: maybe I shouldn't say, but his name rhymes with Trump

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  35. #35
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Zalaegerszeg, Hungary
    Posts
    13
    I'm thinking of making a Princeton, 5D2 to start with and than after probably years, we will see.
    What started it all is an event where a girls duo performed on a small stage on a local event, one was singing the other played on the guitar.
    Now, when we tried the VOX, it was in a room, not open environment and beside she liked the sound, there were two problems. The volume needed for the good sound was way too high and also the base noise was quite high also. I accepted it but it annoyed her. I told it will never be dead silent, but still, I think I will need shielding on the input tubes etc.

    Is that a stupid idea to make an output transformer with more outputs? I mean connect an 8 ohm speaker to 16 or 32 ohm output? Or that creates other problems with not loading the tube with the right impedance? Practically, I'm thinking of a transformer volume control, having the distorsion but at lower levels. Or, is it possible to reduce supply voltage? Like half it, switchable.

    Thanks,
    JG
    mikepukmel likes this.

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