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Thread: Playing barefoot

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    Playing barefoot

    I made a post in a musical instrument forum about it scaring me to see people play barefoot. Boy did I get an earful. People were divided into two camps of "Yes it is gross and dangerous." and "You can't tell me what to do. You're not my mother!"

    My point was that it was dangerous to have an electrical device strapped around you and being a nice electrical path to ground. There is also the danger of cut feet (been there done that) and stubbed toes (who hasn't done that?).

    So go ahead flame me. I've got my asbestos suit (and firefighter boots) on!

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I don't know about gross, after all there is nothing you can step in with bare feet that you cannot also step in wearing shoes. But dangerous? Definitely.

    As to don't "tell me what to do", point out you didn't demand they stop doing it, just pointed out what can happen.

    Things are much better today, with all the three-wire grounded amps. In my touring days, when amps had two wire power cords, we often got shocks even wearing shoes. My guitarist once melted his E string in half when it touched his microphone.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axtman View Post
    My point was that it was dangerous to have an electrical device strapped around you and being a nice electrical path to ground.
    A brief search reveals quite a few videos showing naked ladies playing with electrical devices strapped around them. They should be more careful and at least wear shoes and knee pads.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Those complaining "You can't tell me what to do. You're not my mother!" ***clearly*** show they are still living in their Momīs basement and depending on her for pocket money (up to and including Guitar, amps and stuff).
    Canīt call them "kids" or "early Teens" because sadly I know even 60 year olds still living that way
    Some of which are customers of mine, go figure.
    They read and are members of ALL Forums you can imagine and drive me crazy with all the "knowledge" they pick there
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    I would like to present Exhibit A.

    Barbara Weldens dead: 5 things to know | EW.com

    Please note #5. She liked to sing barefoot.

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axtman View Post
    I would like to present Exhibit A.
    Please don't think that posters are being 'flip' about the subject. The topic has come up numerous times, and the consensus is that electrocution is a real, valid, concern.

    Although post #3 makes me think I could be focusing my attention elsewhere...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Those complaining "You can't tell me what to do. You're not my mother!" ***clearly*** show they are still living in their Momīs basement and depending on her for pocket money (up to and including Guitar, amps and stuff).
    Canīt call them "kids" or "early Teens" because sadly I know even 60 year olds still living that way
    Some of which are customers of mine, go figure.
    They read and are members of ALL Forums you can imagine and drive me crazy with all the "knowledge" they pick there
    Wow... I'm Argentina too? Must be a world wide phenomenon!
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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axtman View Post
    I would like to present Exhibit A.

    Barbara Weldens dead: 5 things to know | EW.com

    Please note #5. She liked to sing barefoot.
    Not only that.
    Cut and paste from same page:
    The 35-year-old reportedly suffered cardiac arrest, possibly caused by electrocution, according to police, who are investigating, via the BBC.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Yet the idiots have the gall to imply that wearing shoes would have inhibited her, claiming shoes "might have only gotten in the way, though, of her dynamic stage presence and lively performances."
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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    I love the
    lively performances
    bit

    How about "deadly"?

    I posted many times about customers and people I directly know who got badly shocked, only saved because somebody jumped to the stage and kicked them away from electrified stuff ..... plus they were young people with a strong heart.

    Including a 25/27 y.o. Brazilian acquaintance who now has some 20% scar tissue in his heart , same as if he had a *massive* heart attack and will have to live forever with that (no sports, not heavy physical activity, regular medication, etc. , like if he were a >60/70 old guy in not too good health)
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Why don't all touring guitarists use wireless systems?
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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    A brief search reveals quite a few videos showing naked ladies playing with electrical devices strapped around them.
    got links?
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    I kinda wish Janis, Jimi, & Jim had been maybe 1% more "inhibited"... then maybe they'd be alive. A little tiniest bit of "inhibition" during life is better than 100% dead.

    Do we know if she'd been warned of the dangers of playing barefoot and just ignored them, or if nobody intervened for fear of "messing with the process?"

    Justin
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    "When receiving a shock I emit a strange loud high pitched girlish squeak." - Alex R -
    "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    i was reading a thread at a players forum where end users were fussing about grounding wooden tailpieces on archtops. evidently some high end luthiers do this. they embed a conductor into their carved wooden trapeze and wire that in continuity with the guitar bridge. i didn't see the need to embed a wooden tailpiece with a conductor and wire that to the bridge. to me, grounding the bridge should be sufficient. but because I like to avoid getting in conversations where i'm some nobody who comments about a master luthier's practices, i kept my mouth shut.

    there are many good reasons to avoid getting into tech discussions on player sites, but the disinformation in this thread was so pervasive that it led to outright dangerous recommendations, so i had to say something. the discussion had people talking about how grounding the bridge was an anti-electrocution measure. others talked about smart guy friends who would put capacitors and resistors between their bridge and ground on their jacks to prevent electrocution. eventually one person spoke up saying that the industry was entirely wrong to ground the guitar and not the player, because that ends up treating the player as a capacitor, just like the electric chair. he recommended that the amp should use the player as ground.

    yikes.

    at that point I had to chime in, and clarify a few points: the electric chair uses wet grounding electrodes so that the victim is treated as a conductor not as a capacitor; guitarists' bodies tend not be fully conductive even when touching the grounded strings because of the high impedance of skin; if you intentionally grounded a guitarist with a skin-conductive electrode (like an ECG electrode) then you'd end up providing a low resistance path to ground through the player; the bridge is grounded for noise reduction, not primarily for electrical safety; little caps and resistors at the bridge aren't a valid recipe for electrical safety; don't ever play on a metal stage -- especially not in the rain; always were non-conductive rubber soled shoes; never touch anything on-stage; get a wireless.

    it went over like a lead zeppelin.
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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    My guitarist once melted his E string in half when it touched his microphone.
    I had an interesting experience when I was replacing a carbonized starter contact on a Harley. After replacing the contact I hooked up the battery to test the starter, but I put off putting that little rubber contact insulation boot back on the starter, thinking I'd do it after I tested the starter...

    fumblefingers that I am, I dropped the wrench as I was tightening the battery terminal. Just my luck -- it came to rest with one end on the chrome transmission case top cover and the the other end on the hot starter terminal. Doh! The wrench completed the circuit, sparks started flying and in an instant the wrench was arc-welded to the transmission cover. Amperes!

    This is why every vehicle's service manual tells you to always disconnect the battery before doing any work on the vehicle, and not to re-connect it until the job is done.
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    You mention non-conductive rubber soled shoes - good point. Many people don't realize that shoes can be comparatively low-resistance; leather-soled shoes with natural linings such as cellulose fibre, suede or cotton absorb moisture. Black rubber often contains carbon black and can go as low as a few thousand ohms.
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    The critical question nobody appears to be asking is where the shock is coming from.

    Clearly the equipment must be malfunctioning, but if the good insulation practices are followed then there should be no life hazard.

    A couple of guidelines that I personally follow:
    - double insulation between live parts and secondary circuit
    - 1.5kV or more rated transformers
    - non-replaceable fuse on L
    - no bridging impedances between lines and Earth (e.g. no Y caps) - as is standard in medical equipmnet
    - grounding path to carry full fault current

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkfenriz View Post
    The critical question nobody appears to be asking is where the shock is coming from.

    Clearly the equipment must be malfunctioning, but if the good insulation practices are followed then there should be no life hazard.

    A couple of guidelines that I personally follow:
    - double insulation between live parts and secondary circuit
    - 1.5kV or more rated transformers
    - non-replaceable fuse on L
    - no bridging impedances between lines and Earth (e.g. no Y caps) - as is standard in medical equipmnet
    - grounding path to carry full fault current
    The equipment that the player/band brings may not be the source of the malfunction. It can be in the electrical distribution system itself. Poor or nonexistent ground, or hot and neutral reversed. If the band brings ground-fault test equipment, or their own grounding mechanism (earth spikes for an outdoor show) that may help mitigate the dangers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    The equipment that the player/band brings may not be the source of the malfunction. It can be in the electrical distribution system itself. Poor or nonexistent ground, or hot and neutral reversed. If the band brings ground-fault test equipment, or their own grounding mechanism (earth spikes for an outdoor show) that may help mitigate the dangers.
    Non-existent grounding or swapping hot with neutral does NOT result in direct exposition to dangerous voltages with properly designed equpment.

  20. #20
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    there's a lot of older equipment that's still in use, which was properly designed during it's time, which we would not consider to be properly designed today.

    IME the biggest risks come from the venue, not from my equipment. My equipment is something that I can control. I can guarantee that my equipment is safe and isn't going to cause a problem if it's connected to a properly configured electrical distribution system. The problem is that there are a lot of venues where the electrical system just isn't up to code. Roadhouse type bars are the worst -- no grounds, hot/neutral swaps, and inadequate circuits to bear the electrical loads. It's as if the wiring was done by the owner's cousin. I can't tell you how many times I've refused to play because the electrical wiring at the site wasn't up to code.

    I think it would be challenging to build an amp that meets Class II standards. Almost everything I've seen is Class 0 or Class I.
    Last edited by bob p; 11-15-2017 at 03:52 PM.
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  21. #21
    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    i didn't see the need to embed a wooden tailpiece with a conductor and wire that to the bridge. to me, grounding the bridge should be sufficient.
    I bet it was a purely cosmetic decision- no visible wire to the archtop bridge.


    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    others talked about smart guy friends who would put capacitors and resistors between their bridge and ground on their jacks to prevent electrocution.
    That tip has been disseminated by non other than Dan Erlewine...

    Guitar Player Repair Guide: How to Set Up, Maintain, and Repair Electrics and Acoustics

    https://books.google.com/books?id=zF...0volts&f=false
    Wire in parrallel a 220k ohm resistor and a .001 capacitor with a minimum voltage rating of 500 volts....
    ...it only lets about 40 volts through your strings if a shock is headed your way. The normal string ground still functions too.
    However, with this safety device you'll still get it if you touch metal knobs, jacks or guitar cords. You can be safe from volume or tone knob shock if your pots have nylon shafts, such as Fender used to use.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    You mention non-conductive rubber soled shoes - good point....
    Black rubber often contains carbon black and can go as low as a few thousand ohms.
    Thanks for that tip. I had never considered that my black Pro Walkers might kill me- or that Chuck Taylors might be more than a fashion statement.

    -rb
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is deemed mad.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    You mention non-conductive rubber soled shoes - good point. Many people don't realize that shoes can be comparatively low-resistance; leather-soled shoes with natural linings such as cellulose fibre, suede or cotton absorb moisture. Black rubber often contains carbon black and can go as low as a few thousand ohms.
    Leather soles are porous and absorb sweat which is conductive salty water.
    To boot leather soles are thin, contact surface is huge and contact pressure is very high (your full weight), the perfect storm recipe.
    Not as good a conductor as copper?
    You bet, but salty wet pads are good enough for electric chair use
    I think it would be challenging to build an amp that meets Class II standards. Almost everything I've seen is Class 0 or Class I.
    I think that in principle Guitar amps can not be rated Class II because user is in direct contact with amplifier chassis.
    That said, there are *a few* , very high Tech amplifiers, all I saw were actually Italian powered cabinets, which use 2 pin plugs and those weird blues Speakon type power connectors, and are rated Class II or its European equivalent, not sure they meet US standards until these are updated (as European ones were).

    Clearly the equipment must be malfunctioning, but if the good insulation practices are followed then there should be no life hazard.
    Not necessarily, miswiring an outlet can turn friendly ground intyo a murderous killer.
    The example I mentioned involved guys playing through perfectly wired and grounded, as far as they are concerned, tube amplifiers, but plugged into miswired wall outlets or extension cords.

    My friend was shocked through the chest and heavily damaged when he touched guitar strings with one hand, and microphone stand with the other.
    Sparks flying show this was not a "few mA through a death cap" case but full 110 or 220V mains through excellent metallic conductors:
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    It'd be a good idea to put one of these in every one of your guitar cases, and chain one of these to every one of your amps.

    37104.jpg
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    Bob, in case you haven't seen it, there is one dangerous scenario that those testers won't catch. Agree they are still much better than not testing at all.
    See the article linked in the sticky here:
    Safety: testing Electrical outlets
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    And now would be a good time to remind everyone that vintage Fender amp "convenience" outlets are ALWAYS miswired. I have yet to open up a vintage amp and see them wired correctly. The smaller slot is the "hot" and should have the black wire. The larger slot is "neutral" and should have the white wire. The hot side has a brass screw while the neutral side has a silver looking screw.

    If I work on an amp with a two slot convenience outlet I always replace it with a new grounded outlet and wire it correctly.

    outlet.jpg
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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Something I discovered a few years ago was a 6' molded plastic three-prong extension cord, clearly factory issue (a reputable US company's insignia stamped on it) where hot and neutral were swapped from end-to-end. No chance of a third party interference - as I said - molded plastic on both connectors. I'm a firm believer now in "anything is possible".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Many years ago now, a vendor was selling power cords cheap. Might even have been Magic Parts if I recall. When I called for some, they cautioned me that the cords were cheap because they had been made with the colors on the wrong posts. The cords were perfectly useful, but not recommended where anyone might confuse their function by color code. I remember the green/yellow wire was either hot or neutral, and brown was earth. All three were wrong.
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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g1 View Post
    Bob, in case you haven't seen it, there is one dangerous scenario that those testers won't catch. Agree they are still much better than not testing at all.
    See the article linked in the sticky here:
    Safety: testing Electrical outlets
    Thanks for posting that. I was aware of the bootleg ground issue -- I've found it in boxes before. But I wasn't aware of how to use the Non-Contact Voltage Tester to catch the boogleg ground issue that the 3-lamp tester would miss. Thanks for that!

    So I guess I have to append my previous recommendation, and say that you need to have both of these in your test kit:


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails klein-tools-voltage-tester-ncvt-1sen-64_1000.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Many years ago now, a vendor was selling power cords cheap. Might even have been Magic Parts if I recall. When I called for some, they cautioned me that the cords were cheap because they had been made with the colors on the wrong posts. The cords were perfectly useful, but not recommended where anyone might confuse their function by color code. I remember the green/yellow wire was either hot or neutral, and brown was earth. All three were wrong.
    Wow! My opinion is that those cords should have been destroyed or at least had the plugs cut off so someone could use the wire. You know that down the road someone is going to misread the colors and hook something up wrong.

    BTW, I also make it a policy to replace those hardware store replacement plugs with a new molded plug and wire. There are good industrial replacement plugs, but I don't trust them. I bet someone could make a mint if they started making replacement power cords with red plugs like old Fender amps.
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Many years ago now, a vendor was selling power cords cheap. Might even have been Magic Parts if I recall. When I called for some, they cautioned me that the cords were cheap because they had been made with the colors on the wrong posts. The cords were perfectly useful, but not recommended where anyone might confuse their function by color code. I remember the green/yellow wire was either hot or neutral, and brown was earth. All three were wrong.
    I remember that, it had to be 15-20 years ago. Magic also got a batch of Fender knobs with dodgy set screws. Lucky for me the very honest phone salesman warned me away from both.

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    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    So I guess I have to append my previous recommendation, and say that you need to have both of these in your test kit:
    While you're appending, could you change that chain to a non-conductive lanyard or similar? I'm afraid the chain might accidentally short against something....

    -rb
    Last edited by rjb; 11-16-2017 at 03:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Many years ago now, a vendor was selling power cords cheap. Might even have been Magic Parts if I recall. When I called for some, they cautioned me that the cords were cheap because they had been made with the colors on the wrong posts. The cords were perfectly useful, but not recommended where anyone might confuse their function by color code. I remember the green/yellow wire was either hot or neutral, and brown was earth. All three were wrong.
    I had a similar thing happen with mic cables once. I've wondered if some of the "cheap labor" confuse mic cable wiring with AC connector wiring sometimes. I ordered some 50ft mic cables to make a cross stage snake. Crossover output to a second amp rack- Low, Mid, High. The system had a hum, but not loud enough to worry about in a club setting, so I let it go. About a year later one of the cables stopped working. When I took it apart, the ground/shield was soldered to pin 3 of the XLR connector (the middle pin- like an AC cable), instead of the correct pin 1. After further inspection, all of the cables from that vendor were built this way (wrong). I replaced the one which had a break in the middle somewhere and rewired the other two correctly. The system was dead quiet. It was the incorrectly wired cables causing hum the whole time.
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  33. #33
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    In fairness, the power cords in question were IEC cords. The wires inside were wired correctly, just the wrong colors. This normally wouldn't matter, but I told the salesman I wanted them to lop off the female and use them as hard wired cords. In THAT use the wire color matters.
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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Makes you wonder why they did not simply trash them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    Makes you wonder why they did not simply trash them.
    C'mon. You live in today's world and don't understand that money trumps brains every time? (oops, wrong thread!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Conner View Post
    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken.

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