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Thread: Is it against the law to wish everybody here a Merry Christmas??

  1. #71
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't believe the accusers or sympathize. But, I fear the pendulum is swinging a bit too far the other way. For years, nothing was done and much was swept under the rug. IMO, now overreacting in an effort to correct the wrongs of the past, if there's even a whiff of impropriety, your out- no due process, no hearings, no anything. In this current culture, it would be pretty easy for someone to just make up some shit to get somebody tossed out of office.
    I agree with you... rather than have us automatically assume that the accuser was telling the truth or lying I would have liked to see some of the cases brought to a civil court for a judge or jury to decide. While the alleged crime is usually past the statute of limitations the person accused could probably file a civil case for defamation of character to clear their name.

    In the case of Al Franken it has been suggested that his accuser was coached by a right wing fanatic...

    Tom Arnold: Leeann Tweeden was 'coached' on Al Franken sexual assault allegations
    by Eddie Scarry [Washington Examiner 12/15/2017]

    Actor and comedian Tom Arnold claimed that the woman who was first to accuse Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., of sexually assaulting her was "coached."
    • In a series of tweets Wednesday night, Arnold said that Los Angeles-based radio broadcaster Leeann Tweeden's allegations were the result of a political attack involving longtime Trump confidante Roger Stone.
    • "I’m disappointed with my friend Leeann Tweedon [sic]," he said. "Her partner at KABC John Phillips is a Roger Stone pal & they coached her for weeks to bring Al Franken down. I’d hoped she’d use her voice to speak out for all women again predators like Roy Moore & Donald Trump but she’s a birther."
    • John Phillips is a CNN political commentator and right-leaning radio talk show host at the same station, KABC, as Tweeden...
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/to...rticle/2642803

    If that link eventually expires here is a link to my archived copy of that article:

    https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...aaf64126a8ba58

    In any case I do believe that Al Franken — like many celebrities and politicians — was definitely guilty of being a total jerk but the last I heard that by itself is not a crime... heck, it could even help you get elected to office!

    Steve A.

    P.S. In case you were wondering who the hell Tom Arnold this is from his wikipedia article. (For some reason I just now got him confused with John Goodman who was Roseanne's spouse on TV — Tom Arnold was her spouse in real life! How can I remember trivia like that while I have no f*cking idea where I just set down the TV remote?!?)

    Thomas Duane "Tom" Arnold (born March 6, 1959) is an American actor and comedian. His big screen breakthrough came when he starred alongside Arnold Schwarzenegger in True Lies (1994), earning a nomination for the MTV Movie Award for Best Comedic Performance.

    Arnold has appeared in many more indie and Hollywood films, including Nine Months (1995), The Stupids (1996), McHale's Navy (1997), Animal Factory (2000), Cradle 2 the Grave (2003), Mr. 3000 (2004), Happy Endings (2005), The Great Buck Howard (2008) and Madea's Witness Protection (2011)"Beethoven's Christmas Adventure"(Voiced of Beethoven.)(2012). He was also the host of The Best Damn Sports Show Period for four years.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Arnold_(actor)
    Last edited by Steve A.; 12-15-2017 at 07:17 AM.

  2. #72
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Sometimes there are witnesses, but most times sexual assaults in court boil down to he said, she said. And from ther is is just subjective as to who you believe.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  3. #73
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Sometimes there are witnesses, but most times sexual assaults in court boil down to he said, she said. And from ther is is just subjective as to who you believe.
    And that's where the our cultures Jones for fifteen minutes of fame takes over. As quick as some famous dude is implicated three more girls that knew him crawl out of the wood pile. Under the circumstances and considering the probability of ulterior motivation it becomes questionable even with multiple allegations. Obviously some guys in power can become creepy. I just think it's possible that not every recent case is actually as it seems and instead nothing more than normal sexual awkwardness. Of course women behave differently to men with status. To later say that it made them uncomfortable and was therefor harassment is bullshit. I don't even think a man implicating that he could help someones career if "things" go right is harassment. That's the normal scene at every singles hookup in our country. Ergo all the references to marrying a doctor or divorcing well, etc. Buy her a diamond and she'll say yes. It's not politically correct to say it, but our culture breeds a lot of money grubbing gold diggers looking for the bigger, better deal. In this light, only if someone threatens to use their power to hurt someones position should it be considered harassment. I'm not sticking up for dirt bags right now. Just hoping we don't all end up perceived as dirt bags because of how this trend is being spun. YMMV
    "I'm just going to perform a bit more scientific investigation, turn it up to 11 and rip of the knob." überfuzz

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  4. #74
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    But that is like anything else. We may have bred gold diggers, but the majority of women are not. Just like a bunch of Bugera amps had connector issues, but not all did, and since the solder mod, none do. Lying to a woman in a bar to get her to come home with you is one thing. Hitting on your EMPLOYEES and telling them the only way they will ever advance is by having sex with you is a different issue.

    Could some of these women be making it up? Sure. But in a case like judge Moore, he has a history, and when first accused he said he indeed dated young women, "but I always got her parents' permission first". If ever there was a "yeah, right" moment, that was it. One bogus accusation doesn't mean the whole bus full of women are lying.

    If I were a woman who walked into Charley Rose's office, and he dropped his pants and...um... saluted me, I don't think it is a case of sexual awkwardness.

    WHile there may be some "piling on" here, I think when something like this happens to a woman, she traditionally said nothing. Now they are finding an opportunity to say "Wow, that happened to me too, when I went to that guy." No one likes to be the first one to clap or to laugh, and it is a lot easier to be the second victim of a sexual predator.
    Chuck H likes this.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  5. #75
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    One thing that's important to consider is that they typical man in a position of power is somewhat bulletproof from attack ... unless the attack is based upon the innuendo of sexual misconduct. Allegations of sexual misconduct are the kryptonite magic bullet that kills every Superman, irrespective of whether they are true or false.

    As has been said, these cases are impossible to prove and who to believe boils down to a he-said/she-said argument that's impossible to prove. For this reason the cases never get tried in a court of law, they get tried in a court of public opinion.

    It shouldn't surprise anyone then, that allegations of sexual misconduct are the only thing that are suitable for removing powerful men from positions of power, and that allegations of sexual misconduct are then utilized by political enemies of powerful men as the vehicle for removing powerful men from positions of power.

    We've seen that over and over again, where powerful the powerful men have included Wall Street's most influential power brokers and Europe's most influential politicians. No surprises there. What amazes me is the rash of these accusations that have all been bundled in the past month. The news is packing these events into the prevailing mindset of the news follower with great repetition. One can only interpret this to mean that we're being conditioned to respond to these allegations in a certain way and that these types of allegations are going to appear in the news more often in the future.

    Allegations of sexual misconduct are a weapon that is being used successfully in political circles. It's success dictates that it will continue to be used.

    Personally, I ignore this kind of noise. Allegations that can't be proven in court are meaningless noise to me. I'm waiting for some convictions. And just in case you didn't know -- there is no statute of limitations on a felony, only misdemeanors.

    FWIW, Bill Cosby did quaaludes with the girls he was picking up in clubs, at a time when methaqualone use was common. He got dragged through the mud for a long time, but eventually he got acquitted of being a date rapist. Evidently the jury thought that a woman who went home with him went home with him for a reason that implied consent.
    Last edited by bob p; 12-15-2017 at 04:55 PM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  6. #76
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    And just in case you didn't know -- there is no statute of limitations on a felony, only misdemeanors.
    That is not true.

    It varies state to state. In Michigan the SOL is 6 years for misdemeanors. For felonies:

    Murder: none;
    kidnapping, extortion, assault with intent or conspiracy to murder: 10 yrs.;
    others: 6 yrs.;
    if victim was under age 18 for any degree of sexual conduct or assault with intent to commit sexual conduct or any sexually abusive activity or material to minor: 10 yrs. or when the victim turns 21 yrs. old, whichever is later; if DNA evidence obtained: none until offender identified, then 10 yrs. after identification or when victim turns 21, whichever is later.
    In Illinois, 18 months for misdemeanors, and felonies thus:

    1st or 2nd degree murder, attempt to commit first degree murder, criminal solicitation to commit murder, involuntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, treason, arson, forgery: none;
    others: 3 yrs.
    Extended limitations when: victim of theft a minor or under legal disability, then during minority or legal disability or within 1 yr. of termination; misconduct in public office: within 1 yr. of discovery, max 3 yr. extension; incestual sexual conduct or penetration of a minor: 1 yr. after victim turns 18; child pornography, indecent solicitation or juvenile pimping of a child, sexual abuse of a minor: within 1 yr. of victim turning 18, 3 yr. minimum; sexual conduct or penetration in professional of fiduciary relationship: 1 yr. after discovery by victim; hazardous waste violations: 5 yrs. after discovery; criminal sexual assault, aggravated criminal sexual assault, aggravated criminal sexual abuse: 10 yrs, or 2 yrs. if reported; criminal sexual assault, aggravated criminal sexual assault, predatory criminal sexual assault, aggravated criminal sexual abuse, or failure to report those offenses under Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act: 20 yrs. after victim turns 18; any offense involving sexual conduct or penetration of a minor where DNA profile of offender entered in database within 10 yrs., victim reported within 2 yrs. (unless given longer under statute), and offender's identity unknown: none
    bob p and J M Fahey like this.
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  7. #77
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Oh yes. I acknowledged above that there are actual bad guys in this story. I'm mostly sticking up for the guys like Louis CK who in my view was merely a cad and not a criminal. Having never implied any favor due to position, not acting without consent and, in fact, never even touching anyone. No offers of career help or threats to impede their progress. Yet some women who said yes came out later and say they weren't happy with their decision. Any perception of relative status influencing their decision was never suggested. Women that said no were respected and there is no indication that anything other than work ethic and results ever affected the careers of any involved. But I did mention that he was a cad. It's certainly crossing a line to ask someone, sometimes out of context, if you can masturbate in front of them. Need an icky face emoji here. But do we tear down the guys career and drag his family and associates through the muck now because of this? It's a harder call in this case I think. But of course it's too late now because he's sharing media space with what I consider to be much worse stories.
    "I'm just going to perform a bit more scientific investigation, turn it up to 11 and rip of the knob." überfuzz

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  8. #78
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Being a cad isn't a crime. So a guys' a cad? So fucking what?

    Well, in today's court of public opinion they'll destroy a guy's career just because he's a cad, when no crime has been committed. You know what, there are lots of cads out there. I pride myself on not being one, but I've met a lot of them. Women have met a lot of them too. But for reasons that don't make sense, now it's becoming a major news event for a guy to hit on a girl and get rejected, as if "he made unwelcome advances" involved criminal activity.

    Shit! I can't tell you how many times I've been shot down when hitting on a hot chick who thought I wasn't in her league. An now people get accused of making "unwelcome advances." What's the difference between that and asking a girl out and being told "no"? The pendulum has swung so far over that every guy with a dick could be accused of being a sexual predator just because he wants to get laid.
    Chuck H and Jazz P Bass like this.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  9. #79
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Chances are when you were at a bar, I suspect even in your mind, "hitting on a hot chick" did not include getting out your dick and waving it at her. Probably didn't arrange to meet her at the bar then show up in a bathrobe gaping open. I suspect hitting on her didn;t include "grabbing her by the pussy". I suspect shoving your tongue down her throat might have been beyond your basic pickup line.

    THAT is the difference between being a cad and being a sexual predator.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  10. #80
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I think Bob's point (and mine too) is that in the court of public opinion the difference is becoming fuzzy or non existent. I have nothing against dong waving pussy gropers getting what's coming to them. I have a problem with the concept of sexual misconduct being redefined as anything that makes a woman uncomfortable and her getting to make the decision about that comfort level during or after uncoerced consent or peacfully accepted rejection. "Normal" can not be defined for flirtation or solicitation for coupling opportunities, or so it seems. If that definition ultimately ends up as "Anything she doesn't like if the man has any influence or money." as it seems to be, things are getting a little sideways of the better goal here.

    What was the title of this thread? Oh yeah... Merry Christmas everyone

    I just wanted to write "Merry Christmas everyone" and "dong waving pussy gropers" in the same post. When is THAT opportunity ever going to come up again?
    rjb and The Dude like this.
    "I'm just going to perform a bit more scientific investigation, turn it up to 11 and rip of the knob." überfuzz

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  11. #81
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    i dunno Enz, I've been pretty drunk a few times. and i've been to some pretty crazy bars were people danced naked. not kidding.

    on a more serious note, times have changed. there used to be times when a cad could get away with pinching a "waitress" on the buttocks. Yes, that was harassment and yes, even in the past those cads who did that sort of thing were regarded as cro-magnons for doing it, and no gentleman would consider doing that sort of thing. But today what used to be regarded as a cad-like behavior toward a "waitress" has evolved into being a sexual predator sexually assaulting a "server".

    Then and now smart guys and gentlemen keept their hands to themselves and didn't do that sort of thing. I'm not saying that the actions of cads were ever justifiable, I'm just saying that today people are becoming hypersensitive to those kinds of actions.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  12. #82
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    in the court of public opinion the difference is becoming fuzzy or non existent.
    ...
    I have a problem with the concept of sexual misconduct being redefined as anything that makes a woman uncomfortable and her getting to make the decision about that comfort level during or after uncoerced consent or peacfully accepted rejection. "Normal" can not be defined for flirtation or solicitation for coupling opportunities, or so it seems. If that definition ultimately ends up as "Anything she doesn't like if the man has any influence or money." as it seems to be, things are getting a little sideways of the better goal here.
    ^^^ This.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  13. #83
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    AA for Cads.

    " Hi. My name is XXXx and I am a dong waving pussy groper."

  14. #84
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    AA for Cads.

    " Hi. My name is XXXx and I am a dong waving pussy groper."
    Yeah, well, I'm a pussy groping dong waver. And we don't take kindly to your type around here.
    The Dude likes this.
    "I'm just going to perform a bit more scientific investigation, turn it up to 11 and rip of the knob." überfuzz

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  15. #85
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    While the alleged crime is usually past the statute of limitations the person accused could probably file a civil case for defamation of character to clear their name.
    In the case of that fat hollywood producer with the scruffy beard (what's his name?) he supposedly paid $1,000,000 as a settlement agreement to that forgettable actress who accused him of misconduct. That million-dollar settlement agreement supposedly included a non-disclosure agreement, where she agreed to keep her mouth shut in exchange for $1 million.

    Well, the bitch took the money and talked anyway. You can be sure as hell that Weinstein (or whatever his name was) is going to take her back to court for violating the terms of their agreement, but the damage to him is already done. Chances are that the forgettable little waif will declare bankruptcy and Weinstone (or whatever his name is) will get nothing but a ruined carrer. He'll probably lose his movie company to one of the big name studios, which in reality, is probably what this fiasco is all about -- a hostile media takeover. when the smoke clears the forgettable little actress will be paid off by getting a high paying role in a new move with the new movie company. That's how people get screwed in big business.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  16. #86
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    I bet it won't actually play out that way

  17. #87
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    hey, why aren't you posting your fees in the recap thread?
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  18. #88
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    You are obsessed with those fees aren´t you?
    In case you didn´t notice, this is the PC Christmas thread.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  19. #89
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Re: the Bill Cosby trial and allegations of rape

    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Personally, I ignore this kind of noise. Allegations that can't be proven in court are meaningless noise to me. I'm waiting for some convictions. And just in case you didn't know -- there is no statute of limitations on a felony, only misdemeanors.
    Not true. In Pennsylvania there is no statute of limitations on murder (and murder-related crimes like conspiracy or solicitation) as well as vehicular manslaughter. For major sexual offenses the SOL is 12 years. (For most major offenses it is 5 years, for most minor ones it is 2 years.)
    BTW the charges against Cosby were filed in 2015 before 12 year statute of limitations was up.

    Pennsylvania Criminal Statute of Limitations Laws - FindLaw

    FWIW, Bill Cosby did quaaludes with the girls he was picking up in clubs, at a time when methaqualone use was common. He got dragged through the mud for a long time, but eventually he got acquitted of being a date rapist.
    Bill Cosby was not acquitted, a mistrial was declared because of the hung jury and a new trial date has been set for next April. The New Yorker article below discusses the issue of mistrials in general and in the Cosby case specifically.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...he-cosby-trial

    Evidently the jury thought that a woman who went home with him went home with him for a reason that implied consent.
    Huh?!? In what universe is a woman going home with a man implied consent to be drugged and sexually assaulted while unconscious? "She was asking for it" ?!?

    Going home with a man might suggest the possibility of a resulting sexual encounter but the woman should be free to leave unmolested if she doesn't like the way the encounter is going. Does anybody actually disagree with that in today's world?

    In Pennsylvania a criminal trial requires a unanimous decision by the jury to decide whether a defendant is guilty or not guilty so there could have been 11 jurors who thought that Cosby was guilty or just one, or any combination between the two.

    As for quaalude use being a popular recreational drug in 2004, the year of the alleged rape... it's heyday here as a party drug was in the 70's and early 80's before it was declared to be a Schedule I drug. However it still is one of the most popular drugs in South Africa which is probably where Cosby was able to obtain it.

    Do People Still Take Quaaludes?

    Steve A.

    P.S. Cosby paid Andrea Constand several million dollars in a civil settlement in 2006 which required that she notify Cosby before talking to police, which she didn’t do. Cosby’s lawyers want Constand to refund the money he paid her.

    Of course it could be argued that Cosby was completely innocent and paid her off just to avoid bad publicity. But then again...

    "At the civil deposition, Cosby admitted to drugging Constand and having sexual contact with her. Those admissions were used against him at his criminal trial this past summer."

    Bill Cosby Paid 'Millions of Dollars' to Silence Rape Accuser, Says Ex-DA

  20. #90
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    He'll probably lose his movie company to one of the big name studios, which in reality, is probably what this fiasco is all about -- a hostile media takeover. when the smoke clears the forgettable little actress will be paid off by getting a high paying role in a new move with the new movie company. That's how people get screwed in big business.
    Quote Originally Posted by nsubulysses View Post
    I bet it won't actually play out that way
    Well here's how it's played out: Weinstein declares bankruptcy, his assets are up for sale, and the main bidder on the assets is ... wait for it ... it's coming ... you won't believe it ... an all-female consortium of investors led by Disney Studios heiress Abigail Disney, the New York Womens' Foundation and Killer Content. They intend to turn the Weinstein company into a film company focused on promoting projects by women and persons of color:
    .
    https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/ki...io-1202664003/

    Now isn't this interesting. It's pretty darned hard to find out who "Killer Content" is. I haven't had much luck Googling.

    Weinstein's most vocal accuser, Rose McGowan, wrote a book in which she claimed that Weinstein provided unwanted oral sex on her in a hot tub 20 years ago in 1997 (why she was in the hot tub remains a mystery). Since then she's repeatedly accused Weinstein of 'slut shaming' her. (I have to be honest, prior to hearing her allegation I had never even heard of the term 'slut shaming.' I'm still not certain that I know exactly what it means.)

    Rose McGowan?s Book Tour Draws Response from Harvey Weinstein ? Variety

    All in all, 30 women have accused Weinstein of some sort of misconduct. The allegations rage from insignificant to serious. Here's the best list I could find of who his accusers are and what they had actually alleged:

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/harv...sers-full-list

    The odd part of this story is that after being accused of misconduct by so many women, a consortium of female investors will be taking control of his media empire. The conspiracy theorist in me has to wonder if there wasn't some behind the scenes collaboration between the accusers and the investors who are ready to take over his media company. It would be ironic if any of the 30 women on the list of accusers were to get starring roles in productions with the new movie company.

    I have to wonder if it is purely coincidence that so many sexual misconduct allegations have come out against a large number of Hollywood personalities in the past year. It certainly doesn't seem like a coincidence, and it looks like the axe has fallen on at least one media mogul.

    There has definitely been a push for female empowerment in Hollywood, famously supported by people like Streep and McDormand.
    Last edited by bob p; 03-06-2018 at 01:25 AM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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