Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 36 to 53 of 53
Like Tree75Likes

Thread: 1967 Super Reverb sounds harsh

  1. #36
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chicago, USA
    Posts
    4,109
    I think that some of what Chuck is talking about (the hate thing) has to do with peoples' changing guitar idol benchmarks for tone. Times have changed. The metal kids like different tones than us classic rock old farts, and they don't even have the same guitar heroes. It's no surprise that they don't want the same amps, or think that our favorite amps suck.

    I haven't heard a lot of records today that are being produced with that classic Fender amp sound. Many players don't need it or find it useful. It won't thrash so they don't want the amp. Today the kids are happy with plugging into Pods or modelling amps and their guitar hero probably used a digital effects station that was DI'd, sampled, and re-amped. I can think of a lot of fast chuka-chuka rhythm and riff playing on current guitar records, but I can't remember the last time I heard a new record that featured sonic bloom.

    If someone is looking for modern tones I can understand why they might say that an old Fender amp sucks. All it takes is a trip to Guitar Center to see what the young kids are playing and you'll know what I mean. When I start playing they can't even associate the song with the artist who made it famous. I'm that funny old square dude in the corner. When I tried doing a little call and response by trading licks with a kid on the other side of the guitar department, I tried to match his chukka-chukka thrashing by playing "Eruption." The kid stopped playing and nudged his friend who said, "Hey! That's the theme from Guitar Hero!" They both laughed. When I said it was Van Halen they looked at me like I had horns. They had no clue who he was because Van Halen is now a has-been. It was my fault. "Van Halen I" came out in 1978. Almost 40 years ago. Their mothers weren't even born yet.

    <Sigh.>


    This can only mean that your BF Fender has topped out in price appreciation -- All of the people who might be interested in buying it probably have one already, and as they start to die off the amps won't bring as much because none of the kids will want them. I'm a seller now.
    Last edited by bob p; 01-10-2018 at 04:46 AM.
    Chuck H and mikepukmel like this.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

  2. #37
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    12,244
    But it's still the chosen sound to represent "Guitar Hero" Maybe these kids, like us, will look into HOW those tones were made and try to recreate it.?. One can hope. And, incidentally, the reason we have pretty decent vintage Fender type tones on some recordings today isn't that it's old timers with vintage amps playing studio gun. It's because the reissue Fender amps actually sound pretty damn good. And that can't hurt either. A recent poll of the ten best guitar amps in Guitar Player magazine included two vintage reissue models and two vintage style (as in NOT channel switching) boutique amps. That's 40% of the top ten representing the real deal as "we" see it here on the forum. I think that's pretty good. And encouraging. Unfortunately the ubiquitous Line 6 made the list at number ten. That's down on the top ten list, but it still puts a digital modeler in the top ten.
    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  3. #38
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chicago, USA
    Posts
    4,109
    Maybe there's a selection bias. Guitar Hero was developed for "kids" by "old people". And I'm willing to bet that GP has some old farts on the editorial staff. Old farts like old designs, the designs of their youth.

    And I'm wiling to bet that one of the reasons that boutique builders build simple amps is because they don't want to put all the R&D expense into developing modern modelling amps or amps with "complicated" channel switching on PCBs. Developing those kinds of amps costs a lot more than soldering up a boutique Fender or Marshall circuit derivative on an eyelet board and calling it "point to point".

    On the subject of the vintage reissue Fenders, I'm glad we have them. But I'm not sure that the Fender marketing guys are building them for the same reason that you or I like them. To be honest, I don't think the marketing guys at Fender are just doing the same thing that Marshall did with the reissues. They realized that their modern amps were selling at a price below what their vintage amps were selling for, and they wanted a cut of that fatter vintage amp money. So they created a line of vintage reissue amps and priced them a lot higher than the modern amps, but they aren't really any more expensive to make. I think the vintage reissues are all about fat profit margin. If the vintage amps couldn't bring higher prices I think they wouldn't bother selling anything other than Hot Rod Deluxes and Devilles.
    Last edited by bob p; 01-10-2018 at 05:46 AM.
    mikepukmel likes this.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

  4. #39
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    28,916
    MY pedal board has 12 pedals. OH yeah? MY pedal board has an even 20. Foo, you kids, If you don;t have at least 24, you are nobody. 40 years ago no one had huge pedal boards. No one wants to sound like a Fender any more, they want to sound like Green Day, or whoever the current generic band might be.

    "What setting should I put on my Gorilla to get that Terry Kath sound?"


    (I can't believe I even typed that...)
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  5. #40
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    9,440
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    MY pedal board has 12 pedals. OH yeah? MY pedal board has an even 20. Foo, you kids, If you don;t have at least 24, you are nobody. 40 years ago no one had huge pedal boards. No one wants to sound like a Fender any more, they want to sound like Green Day, or whoever the current generic band might be.

    "What setting should I put on my Gorilla to get that Terry Kath sound?"


    (I can't believe I even typed that...)
    You´ll be surprised

    Why spend U$50000 on a Dumble when there are 6 (six, count´em) which claim to give you exact same sound for ... what? ... U$200 to 400?

    Pocket change:

    The Dumble Legend: 6 Boxes That Get it Right | Tone Report

    So you can thank me for saving you U$49600 or more
    mikepukmel likes this.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  6. #41
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    12,244
    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Maybe there's a selection bias. Guitar Hero was developed for "kids" by "old people". And I'm willing to bet that GP has some old farts on the editorial staff. Old farts like old designs, the designs of their youth.
    But the kids like it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    And I'm wiling to bet that one of the reasons that boutique builders build simple amps is because they don't want to put all the R&D expense into developing modern modelling amps or amps with "complicated" channel switching on PCBs. Developing those kinds of amps costs a lot more than soldering up a boutique Fender or Marshall circuit derivative on an eyelet board and calling it "point to point".
    That's about as untrue as it can be. Of course, you have to be a company with some clout but it's much cheaper to R&D an amp of ANY design and then have them churned out overseas. Designing an uber gain channel switcher isn't as hard as all that. And the cottage industry guys aren't only selling clones. They have R&D too. You'll need to trust me om this one. I've been on both sides of that coin in real life. I'll concede that the R&D that goes into a mass production amp could well be greater than what goes into a small builders individual design because the expense can't be spread over ten thousand units. But R&D never sleeps with the small operations and those guys often continue to refine and develop their flagship models rather than abandoning them in favor of current trends. In the end you can have a very refined product indeed. Also, some of the smaller guys are so good at designing that they can STILL make a superior product. Witness Suhr and Fuchs. And both use PCB's, not eyelets

    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    On the subject of the vintage reissue Fenders, I'm glad we have them. But I'm not sure that the Fender marketing guys are building them for the same reason that you or I like them. To be honest, I don't think the marketing guys at Fender are just doing the same thing that Marshall did with the reissues. They realized that their modern amps were selling at a price below what their vintage amps were selling for, and they wanted a cut of that fatter vintage amp money. So they created a line of vintage reissue amps and priced them a lot higher than the modern amps, but they aren't really any more expensive to make. I think the vintage reissues are all about fat profit margin.
    Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine.?. The bottom line, no matter how you slice it, they're giving the people what they want. Because if people didn't want them they wouldn't be able to sell them. You have to do that as a company to the exclusion, if necessary, of personal ideals if you hope to stick around. And my point above was that people want them.
    mikepukmel likes this.
    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  7. #42
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cheshire, UK
    Posts
    1,633
    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    I can't see the amps in this video, but the tone is unmistakable.

    I used to play No Matter What in my band but I haven't played in a band since 2008. I miss it
    Never mind, carry on. I'm just thinking out loud.
    mikepukmel likes this.

  8. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    325
    IIRC, the SR has different value caps in the tone stack, and the % of NFB is different, owing to the usual resistor values being used with an OPT with a different turns ration. I wonder if this is why I generally prefer the SR to the other Fenders?
    mikepukmel likes this.

  9. #44
    Supporting Member Randall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    1,342
    All I know is, I had 6 BF Fenders in my little shop at the same time last week, all owned by "old farts". They represent 90% of my business, I hardly see a young guy with a modern amp. I just took in a 66 Supro 2x12 that may be the cleanest vintage amp I ever laid eyes on. The guy paid a premium for it, because he just retired and has the coin, and this amp doesn't look like has every even been played it is so clean. A joy for me to play with. point being, these old amps aren't going away anytime soon.
    mikepukmel likes this.
    It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

  10. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    612
    Quote Originally Posted by Randall View Post
    Anyone who plugs a mid 60's strat into a proper '64 Super Reverb and is disappointed, doesn't know much about much.
    Ahhh, some guitar players are 'tone guys'. They get used to, are or looking for what is to them the holy grail sound. They can go through a dozen or 20 of the same amp same year and hear little things that I sure can't hear.

  11. #46
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    4,591
    And, some guys chase tone their whole career. IMO, because their idea of tone is constantly changing- or else why would it take so long? I have a friend who goes through more amps than a music store. Each time he picks up a new one, it's "the one". He claims he's done searching and has found his perfect tone. A couple months later, it's gone and he's playing through the new perfect amp. Lather, rinse, repeat.
    Chuck H, g1 and mikepukmel like this.
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

  12. #47
    Supporting Member Randall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    1,342
    Nothing wrong with being a tone chaser. But I submit in practical terms, if you need to go thru 10 or 20 of the same amp to find whatever it is you are looking for, the problem is in your head.

    Now I shall sit back and collect likes on this post.
    mikepukmel likes this.
    It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

  13. #48
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    12,244
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    And, some guys chase tone their whole career. IMO, because their idea of tone is constantly changing- or else why would it take so long? I have a friend who goes through more amps than a music store. Each time he picks up a new one, it's "the one". He claims he's done searching and has found his perfect tone. A couple months later, it's gone and he's playing through the new perfect amp. Lather, rinse, repeat.
    I did that for awhile. I always had "my" sound no matter what I played. Always workable, but never exactly what I wanted. Then I started modifying my own gear. I modded for another year or so before landing in a happy place, The more I understood about the circuits the better things sounded and it just took time to get there. I've been pretty happy with my amps since then. Happy enough that I'm no longer chasing "my" tone and instead have made several one off custom orders. Which is like having the game right back where I started, except that I can always plug into my own amp and be home I actually enjoy the troubleshooting and fine tuning of a circuit that's new to me. My wife knows me well enough that when I'm working on a project and I'm in a tricky spot, swearing occasionally, going back and forth to the computer and just generally acting a little stressed she'll ask "Are you having fun?" Which I am. Though it wouldn't seem that way to anyone else.
    pdf64, g1, The Dude and 1 others like this.
    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  14. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    612
    Ive seen bits of either side of the fence, over the years. Im not too far on either side. There's a great interview with Randall Smith, from Mesa, who talks about this kind of stuff. I can't remember the exact words, but he said something like: if you look at all of the tolerances in all of the parts in those vintage amps, its not surprising one in ten or fewer have "that sound". In another great interview he talks about the process of designing a new amp and getting it into production. He had a story about an amp they were working on. They had an engineering prototype, brought in the famous guys to play and listen, and said they had nailed this design. The pro's loved it. So, they made a few more prototypes from the engineering R&D unit, brought the guys back in and they all said "What is THIS? This isn't the amp you showed us!". he talks about going back into the lab for months to find out what it was that caused the change in tone. He wouldn't say what it was, but basically, some of the things we think don't matter, really do. Now to most of us non musicians, like me, I probably couldn't tell the difference. But to, say a Carlos Santana, or Jeff beck, or one of the many fine lesser known guitar gurus, . . . Smith said in another interview, and its probably an exaggeration but knowing the guy it fit, he said: everything in a guitar amplifier is a tone control. And I do remember back in the day, mid to late 70's, lots of guys had mostly fender, but a few Sunn, and Marshall and Ampeg and a few other lesser known amps, lots of them sounded pretty crappy. OK admittedly, many were in need of repairs, but few sounded what I would call 'great'. Its an interesting discussion.
    Chuck H likes this.

  15. #50
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    12,244
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Everything in a guitar amplifier is a tone control.
    Thinking about sig-ing this
    Justin Thomas and mikepukmel like this.
    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "Shut up, you big dumb poopy-head!" Justin Thomas

  16. #51
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Dogpatch-on-Hudson
    Posts
    4,451
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    everything in a guitar amplifier is a tone control.
    Including the speaker(s), nobody should forget that.

    AND the room it's in, what mic is used for recording/PA, & I'm sure a couple other things. Leo Fender was spot on when he considered amp + guitar to be a system.

  17. #52
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    MA-NH border
    Posts
    16
    In youtube live gigs you can see them on at least one song. Not sure which, you'll have to watch them. I've had all the oldies fender amps (I'm 61) and my bet is they are vibroluxes. They all sound a little different form each other ie I have a blackface vibro champ, and it is not a small version of my super reverb. It's good, it's just not a low wattage version of the same thing. btw virtually the only good used amp you could get 40+ yrs ago were fenders, so it wasn't an unusual thing to have a tweed Vibrolux (best amp I ever had, should have kept it. I think I paid $180 for it) or a Super Reverb, a Vibratone, a blackface Princeton Reverb, or a 50 watt slant front half Marshall stack. Anyway, Badfinger soounds like Vibrolux crunch. That doesn't make me an expert, just that my money is on Vibroluxes. I coul dbe wrong.

  18. #53
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    MA-NH border
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Ive seen bits of either side of the fence, over the years. Im not too far on either side. There's a great interview with Randall Smith, from Mesa, who talks about this kind of stuff. I can't remember the exact words, but he said something like: if you look at all of the tolerances in all of the parts in those vintage amps, its not surprising one in ten or fewer have "that sound". In another great interview he talks about the process of designing a new amp and getting it into production. He had a story about an amp they were working on. They had an engineering prototype, brought in the famous guys to play and listen, and said they had nailed this design. The pro's loved it. So, they made a few more prototypes from the engineering R&D unit, brought the guys back in and they all said "What is THIS? This isn't the amp you showed us!". he talks about going back into the lab for months to find out what it was that caused the change in tone. He wouldn't say what it was, but basically, some of the things we think don't matter, really do. Now to most of us non musicians, like me, I probably couldn't tell the difference. But to, say a Carlos Santana, or Jeff beck, or one of the many fine lesser known guitar gurus, . . . Smith said in another interview, and its probably an exaggeration but knowing the guy it fit, he said: everything in a guitar amplifier is a tone control. And I do remember back in the day, mid to late 70's, lots of guys had mostly fender, but a few Sunn, and Marshall and Ampeg and a few other lesser known amps, lots of them sounded pretty crappy. OK admittedly, many were in need of repairs, but few sounded what I would call 'great'. Its an interesting discussion.


    Yep it could be damn hard squeezing tone out of an amp in those days, you had fuzz boxes and that was it, no master volume knobs, gigging coul dbe painful because your rig wouldn't cooperate. I had a 1961 Stratocaster that to this day do not regret selling, it was such a dog, low power, dead spots all over the neck. Nowadays it's an easy fix to get a rig playable, but back then we had no clue. A major innovation was putting fat frets on Fender guitars. You could commonly buy Fenders with thoise infernal skinny frets, and if you wanted fatter frets, you'd have to buy a Gibson. We didn't know anything about changing the frets. IMHO you don't need a classic Fender amp or anything "classic" in order to sound fucking excellent. The old shit does sound different, but the myth is bigger than the real differences. And no matter what setup you play through, you're going to have to make compensations for it, which is easy nowadays.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 1959 Plexi clone sounds harsh after blowing the HT fuse
    By Mrk200 in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 01-02-2018, 01:25 AM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-24-2017, 06:01 AM
  3. Super Champ XD harsh treble--any popular mods?
    By Mr Johnny Birchwood in forum Mods & Tweaks
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-10-2013, 09:30 PM
  4. 1967 Fender Blackface Super Reverb
    By bluzmn in forum Flea Market
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-29-2011, 11:42 PM
  5. Anyone willing to help a n00b replace a PT in a working 1967 Super Reverb?
    By w302nv in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-04-2010, 05:50 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •