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Thread: Joining turret lugs

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    Joining turret lugs

    Can 18awg silver plated buss wire be used to join turret lugs on the + side of the board? I know it's ok on the ground side but after much searching I can't seem to find any kind of voltage/temperature rating for the stuff !!!
    Probably a very dumb question
    Thanks
    Scott

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    I don't see why not. 18 gauge ought to handle 7 amps with no problems, plenty for just about any function in building guitar amps. And silver plated! Wow, that's special . . . should attract the attention of those seeking boo-teeki qualities. It's copper in the middle, right? So you have the same temp specs as any copper wire. Melts at 1950 degrees Fahrenheit. Again plenty of margin in any guitar amp. Voltage? As bus wire, has no insulation, right? So make sure there's enough space between your wire and any high voltage node so you don't tempt an arc to form. Overall, I don't see any problem.

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    Thanks leo thats kinda what i thought but just wanted to make sure !!!
    It's made by weico (mil -w- 3891 type s) soft drawn copper with a silver plate I think it cost me 16 for 10ft including delivery from the states so not cheap
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Current is current, so ground side or positive side or negative side ought to make no difference.

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    The silver plating is to make the solder stick better?

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    I think the silver plating is to help prevent the copper from oxidizing which would reduce its conductivity over time I think that's why they are also tin plated (being cheaper) as for making solder stick better I doubt it, it will probably make it harder to solder I would have thought??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarvini View Post
    I think the silver plating is to help prevent the copper from oxidizing which would reduce its conductivity over time I think that's why they are also tin plated (being cheaper) as for making solder stick better I doubt it, it will probably make it harder to solder I would have thought??
    Silver plate would prevent the copper from oxidizing, but silver also oxidizes, also reacts easily with sulfur compounds, to create the typical black tarnish which must be cleaned off before you solder to it. Tin plate or solder covered wire is a more economical choice, and I'm sure you can find it in the UK instead of having to ship it over the pond & pay customs duty besides. Since you already have the silver wire, no problem using it, just clean immediately prior to soldering. In the future save yourself a packet & select tin/solder coat wire or plain copper.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    The copper wire only oxidizes on the outer surface. Note that 60-70 year old amps like Fenders don't have wires corroding in half, and conductivity is never an issue.

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    There are a few places in the UK that stock stuff for amp building but they usually have a pretty high delivery charge I think farnell were about 15 per delivery whatever you order !! Plus all the quality stuff that I've seen seems to be located in the US I usually just take the import charge on the chin and buy more than I need plus I usually use e bay as you can use PayPal I don't like using my credit card online for the obvious reasons maybe the US have a greater demand for tube gear than here in the UK some of the resistors I have bought from UK sources have been awful quality I'll probably never use them I admit the silver plate was a bit extravagant but 10ft will make quite a few buss bars so I won't need any more for a long while

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    Just to reply to enzo why would they bother to plate it if it makes no difference?

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    There are various reasons to plate wire, I just don't feel like wire corrosion reducing conductivity is one of them.

    Oxidized copper is hard to solder to, so tinning it makes for easier connections.

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    Ah ok that makes sense and with the knowledge that I see you have on every problem,query and technical question I don't think I'll debate it any further

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    I have always considered 'silver plated wire' to be a jewelry thing.

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    It is usually for jewellery. In a tube amp it has no benefit - plain old tinned copper wire is perfectly good. I buy it on the reel from RS in the UK. BTW, Farnell only charges 15 for components that come from the US. UK/European stock does not carry this surcharge - just use the filters to exclude US stock.

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    I know its just that when I look for things I want like turret lugs they are us stock so I might as well use eBay

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    Begs the question why would it be made ? If there was absolutely no difference or benefit then no one would buy it? as for jewellery never worn it never will and if I did it wouldn't be 10ft of 18awg plate

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarvini View Post
    Begs the question why would it be made ? If there was absolutely no difference or benefit then no one would buy it? as for jewellery never worn it never will and if I did it wouldn't be 10ft of 18awg plate
    Back in the 70s handmade jewelry was all the rage amongst my friends. Beads on silver plated wired would be the norm for the hypo-allergenic crowd.

    I'm not sure if the wire you purchased was advertised for its electrical properties, but there's another crowd (besides jewelry aficionados) that will eat up any hint of mojo for things even remotely related to the audio world. And unscrupulous resellers that'll buy those remotely-related things and market them to any phool who'll buy.

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    I thought maybe I could get a clue about the wire's intended use by the package in the picture. Unfortunately, the "Daubert Cromwell" bag the wire came in is merely a protective package, made by a third party, there's no link to the OEM of the wire.

    edit: D'oh! Now I see the Weico reference. And the tinned copper is less than a third of the price. Not sure how that shakes out for small quantities, with shipping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    I'm not sure if the wire you purchased was advertised for its electrical properties, but there's another crowd (besides jewelry aficionados) that will eat up any hint of mojo for things even remotely related to the audio world. And unscrupulous resellers that'll buy those remotely-related things and market them to any phool who'll buy.
    A serious dyed-in-the-wool audiophool would hold out for five-nines pure silver wire, "plated" would be frowned on as being declasse'. After all silver is the metal with the best conductive properties. And of course the Manhattan Project used miles of silver wire to create the electromagnets they used to separate fissile uranium from plain old ordinary everyday uranium. It's the stuff of legend! That's what you want in your amp!

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    A serious dyed-in-the-wool audiophool would hold out for five-nines pure silver wire, "plated" would be frowned on as being declasse'. After all silver is the metal with the best conductive properties. And of course the Manhattan Project used miles of silver wire to create the electromagnets they used to separate fissile uranium from plain old ordinary everyday uranium. It's the stuff of legend! That's what you want in your amp!
    I remember reading about the requisition process for that silver. Engineers ask for XX tons of silver, the mint reps respond with "how many troy ounces is that?"

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    I remember reading about the requisition process for that silver. Engineers ask for XX tons of silver, the mint reps respond with "how many troy ounces is that?"
    Just the kind of question engineers love to answer. Break out the slide rule! Train cars loaded with silver bars, imagine that. They got all they needed too. And the mint got it all back when they were done. Good ol' fashioned accountability. Couldn't do that these days, I don't think the gummint stores much silver for coinage anymore.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    I don't think the gummint stores much silver for coinage anymore.
    With copper increasing in value they don't make pennies out of that anymore either. They're copper plated.

    No one's come right out and said it (though some got close) but the silver plated copper wire is probably made almost exclusively for the audio amplifier industry. Someone that knows how much pseudo tech is bandied around in the genre decided (probably correctly) that since it's easy to plate copper with silver there might be a $h!t ton of profit on such a product.

    There's nothing wrong with it. There's just no special property for any purpose that wire has as a result of it's plating other than marketability.

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    Begs the question why would it be made ? If there was absolutely no difference or benefit then no one would buy it?
    Jarvini, we already answered that. I never said there was NO difference or benefit. What I did say was the difference you proposed - reduced conductivity of the wire - was not the reason for it.

    Others have suggested that silver plating offers no benefit IN GUITAR AMPS. That it might be used in jewelry is one benefit of the stuff, lots of people still do wear jewelry. And in the hifi audio world all sorts of silly things are used.

    Synthesizer keyboards these days use carbonized rubber contacts on copper pads for the key contacts, but some years back, silver plated wires (And also gold plated wires) were commonly used as key contacts in electronic pianos and synths. The silver oxidation is still conductive and so extends the contact life.

    And if my ever dimming memory serves me, old Maestro units and Farfisa organs used silvered wire contacts for patch switches.

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    Overpriced shiny pointless wire aside I have one last thing to buy for the amp the power transformer in the book it recommends a power transformer with the following specs:-
    240v primary
    310-0-310 To 330-0-330 secondary (centre tapped)
    Rated for at least 70mA -80mA
    6.3v AC centre tapped filament supply @4A
    5.0v AC rectifier filament supply @ 3.0A
    After some searching I just want to know if the attached would be correct ? It was noted on an earlier thread that the filament amperage was too high and I could get away with less !! Click image for larger version. 

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    Also they make a 100mA version which according to the data will run cooler ??

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    Last edited by Jarvini; 02-08-2018 at 12:43 AM.

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    So basically I've fallen for the hype and spent more than I needed to but no harm in using it now I've got it I suppose?

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarvini View Post
    ... I have one last thing to buy for the amp the power transformer in the book it recommends a power transformer with the following specs:-
    240v primary
    310-0-310 To 330-0-330 secondary (centre tapped)
    Rated for at least 70mA -80mA
    6.3v AC centre tapped filament supply @4A
    5.0v AC rectifier filament supply @ 3.0A
    After some searching I just want to know if the attached would be correct ? It was noted on an earlier thread that the filament amperage was too high and I could get away with less !!
    Also they make a 100mA version which according to the data will run cooler ??
    Add up the heater current requirements for the tube complement you will use. For example, I know that a dual triode 12A_7 will consume 300mA (0.3A) at 6.3 Volts. The power tube current reqs I haven't memorized yet I don't see mention of what amp you are building, so simply list out the tubes, note which are 6.3V heaters, add up the current demands. Note if there's a rectifier tube that may need 5V; I suspect so. Use the numbers that you derive to spec the PT. The one you suggest may well be fine for the job.

    edit: IIRC, Classictone targets specific amp designs with their trannys. If your build is a clone of an existing design - that matches the suggested use by Classictone for the PT - then you are OK with their recommendation. If your build is not an exact replica, you may need to do the math in order to be sure.

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    It's the dave hunter two stroke (the single power tube version) you can use either a 6l6 a 6v6 or an el34
    6l6 = 900mA
    6v6 = 450mA
    El34 = 1.5A

    So if I'm right the highest would be the el34 and 12ax7 together meaning a max total of 1.8 Amps so the 2.25A that the transformer supplies should be plenty ? The amp is basically a hot rodded princeton I think and the classictone transformer is a for a princeton
    Thanks for your help I appreciate it

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Only one 12AX7? Even two preamp tubes would be under the spec. I think you're OK. Did the recommendation for 4A @ 6.3VAC come from the designer? Seems excessive.

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    It uses a 5y3 rectifier one of the 3 power tubes (6l6 6v6 el34) and a single 12ax7 it also says that you can swap the 12ax7 for 12ay7 and after looking back at the text it also says a kt66 or a 6k6gt can be used
    And yes the 4A 6.3 was the designers spec from the book
    Not sure how much current the pilot lamp draws but I shouldn't imagine it would be 450mA !!

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    Maybe it's different for some, but most magnetics manufacturers rate secondary voltages at current. So, if you want exactly 6.3V on your tube filaments the secondary should be rated for the exact current the tubes will draw. Not critical however. You can drag it down a little or over rate a little and it's honestly ok. But drag it down a lot and you can get excessive heat and below spec filaments. Over rate too much and you get above spec filaments. Anything out of spec is a detriment to tube life and higher is a little worse than lower IIRC. A filament secondary rated at 2.25A seems fine for your project.

    The mistake I made early on was that over rated is "better" by default. But WRT transformer secondaries that's not exactly the case. Sure, we want the amp to run cool and have leeway in the part specifications. But we also want (very much) to be within voltage specs for the tube filaments. Several of my amps are now loading the filament winding with low value resistance to drag the filament voltage into spec. Energy wasted as heat in an added pair of resistors. So, just to reiterate, the filament winding current spec is NOT typically what the max current through the winding can be, but the current at which the specified voltage is present.

    HTH

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    It's only just occurred to me that the original version of this amp used 2 power tubes !!! And although the designer (dave hunter) changed the amp in the second edition of his book to use only one power tube he must have left the old spec for the transformer in the build notes !!!!!
    So I think I should be fine with the classic tone princeton replacement
    Thanks for your help guys oh and if anyone's selling any silver plated wire I'm not interested !!!!

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    Thanks for the info chuck another nugget of information to digest, running with that in mind it surely makes this amp design a little awkward as it is noted that because it is cathode biased the power tube and preamp tube can be swapped out for different types each with a different filament current draw ? Does this mean I should try use tubes that bring me closest to the stated 2.25A as a couple of the possible combinations would be way below that !!!

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    I always buy Hammond transformers, right here in the UK. No need to buy anything in the US. You save on exchange losses, shipping and the extortionate VAT collection fee. Other amp parts are available here, too. Try Philip at Bluebell Audio - I get my transformers from him. He also has other amp parts such as turrets. Modulus amps are another good resource.

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    Thanks Mick I'll give them a look

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarvini View Post
    It's only just occurred to me that the original version of this amp used 2 power tubes !!! And although the designer (dave hunter) changed the amp in the second edition of his book to use only one power tube he must have left the old spec for the transformer in the build notes !!!!!
    So I think I should be fine with the classic tone princeton replacement
    Thanks for your help guys oh and if anyone's selling any silver plated wire I'm not interested !!!!
    I've been wondering "which Princeton are we talking about here?" The original original Fender Princeton was a tweed in the early 50's, single output tube, sort of a larger-box Champ. 1960 Fender started their brown tolex amps and at that time the name Princeton was applied to a 2 x 6V6 circuit turning out a glorious 10 watts. I've owned a couple of the brownies, and they're quite nice amps.

    Select your PT according to the amp version you're building. AND thanks to Mick for excellent advice obtaining parts in the UK.

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