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Thread: Switchable additional winds

  1. #1
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    Switchable additional winds

    Hi all, first post here

    I have wound a few pickups for my own basses and I was wondering about the the possibilities of adding an additional circuit to a single coil to get more tonal options.
    I am not completely new to this, but by no means any where near an expert, ore like a trial and error diy-er. I did a search and couldn't find anything on it, but since I'm not so familiar with the terminology I might have missed it, so apologies in advance if this has been discussed before.

    So here's my idea:
    When winding a pickup you stop at a certain point, cut the wire, and lead it somewhere it is fixed and not in the way, and then continue with a new wire, until you end up with an "overwound" pickup. These two coils are then hooked up through a dptp switch so you can switch between running the normal (or underwound) coil to the amp and normal+extra wounds to the amp. I made this following schematic to hopefully explain some more.
    asset-1-0.5x-80.jpg

    As I tried to depict, the coils are wound and wired in the same direction, so there will be no hum cancelling of course. I figure there would be a difference in volume from the two options, so maybe I can fiddle around to get an inline resistor or a trimpot to even out the output.

    So what do think? Has anyone tried this? Would it work? Am I overlooking something?

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    Cool idea, why not.

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hout View Post
    Has anyone tried this?
    Your idea is called a "coil tap", and it's been around for ages.
    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak View Post
    Your idea is called a "coil tap", and it's been around for ages.
    There you go So thát's the term
    So the wiring schematic, is that correct? Or am I inducing a lot of trouble by using an additional resistor?

    EDIT:
    As I now know this is called a coil tap, do I actually need to use dpdt switching, or would it suffice to solder a "tap" wire somewhere mid way and just use that one coming out the middle of coil, and one out of the end? Then I could use a normal ON-ON switch for this.
    Last edited by Hout; 02-14-2018 at 03:07 PM.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Not sure what you mean by ON-ON , what you need is a SPDT .
    Ground is always connected and output is taken either from the full winding or from the tap.
    I would not rush to compensate for overwound higher output, user will *expect* it to be louder than the less wound one, otherwise what´s the point?
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    It's also unfortunate that the term "coil tap" is used in novice circles to indicate splitting humbucker coils and running them as singles. Which, of course, is a coil split. But some bigger name manufacturers make the same error in the lit sometimes. I can only assume this is an attempt to communicate effectively with the electronically illiterate guitar players they cater to. At least I hope so. But misuse of the term makes it hard to know what someone is selling.
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    That's one of the cool things when diving into the wonderful world of guitar pickups - you end up reinventing the wheel every other week, which is comforting in a way because it puts the process back into a human perspective. The very fact you reach the same conclusions as pickup makers back in the day should tell you you're on the right track!

    You can indeed use an ON-ON SPDT switch for your wiring, simply ditch the resistor. But you can make any number of taps - as many as you can fit eyelets on the side of your flatwork! You can then tap your coil from the 'in' wire to any of the taps you want, or from any tap to any subsequent tap. This makes for a wide tonal flexibility. Some people use a rotary switch for this.
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    Thanks for all the advice! Very interesting world indeed, inventing and engineering your own sound! SPDT ON-ON was what I was trying to say with normal ON-ON, the correct abbreviation didn't come to mind.
    Just for clarification, as you all seem to oppose the resistor, increasing the winds changes the tonal characteristics as well as the output volume, right? I'm not fond of changing my bass' output volume much as I find it messes with my pedal chain, so that's the reason for the resistor. Or will adding a resistor sort of undo both volume and tonal characteristics of the extra winds?

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I should probably let the pickup guys handle this, but...

    I think a resistor of any value that would significantly stave LF output would also roll down the resonant peak like turning down the volume control on your guitar. Making the overall signal balance favor LF for the relative amount of output.

    Maybe a capacitor instead?
    "I'm just going to perform a bit more scientific investigation, turn it up to 11 and rip of the knob." überfuzz

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hout View Post
    Hi all, first post here

    I have wound a few pickups for my own basses and I was wondering about the the possibilities of adding an additional circuit to a single coil to get more tonal options.
    I am not completely new to this, but by no means any where near an expert, ore like a trial and error diy-er. I did a search and couldn't find anything on it, but since I'm not so familiar with the terminology I might have missed it, so apologies in advance if this has been discussed before.

    So here's my idea:
    When winding a pickup you stop at a certain point, cut the wire, and lead it somewhere it is fixed and not in the way, and then continue with a new wire, until you end up with an "overwound" pickup. These two coils are then hooked up through a dptp switch so you can switch between running the normal (or underwound) coil to the amp and normal+extra wounds to the amp. I made this following schematic to hopefully explain some more.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Asset 1@0.5x-80.jpg 
Views:	53 
Size:	67.5 KB 
ID:	47092

    As I tried to depict, the coils are wound and wired in the same direction, so there will be no hum cancelling of course. I figure there would be a difference in volume from the two options, so maybe I can fiddle around to get an inline resistor or a trimpot to even out the output.

    So what do think? Has anyone tried this? Would it work? Am I overlooking something?
    An under appreciated aspect of coil tapping is that, suppose you wind it to 7,000 turns, then tap it, then wind it another 2,000 turns for a total of 9,000, when you use the 7,000 tap, it will not sound the same as a coil that was wound to 7,000 turns without the tap, because those extra 2,000 turns of wire remain in the circuit as a capacitive coupling. The amount of capacitance added by that extra bulk of coil is audibly significant.
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    If the layers affect one another, can you use this to create some tonal variation? Here’s a scenario: say you wind 5000 turns, tap it, wind 5000 more, put a 4-wire lead on the pickup, then hook it up to a 3-way toggle. The toggle gives you inside coil, full series, outside coil. Would the inside and outside taps sound different enough to be worth it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rodgers View Post
    If the layers affect one another, can you use this to create some tonal variation? Here’s a scenario: say you wind 5000 turns, tap it, wind 5000 more, put a 4-wire lead on the pickup, then hook it up to a 3-way toggle. The toggle gives you inside coil, full series, outside coil. Would the inside and outside taps sound different enough to be worth it?
    If both halves are 5000 turns, both halves will perform near identically, regardless of whether the coil is on the inside or the outside.

  13. #13
    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    The coil on the outside is quite larger than the inside coil ,I wouldn't consider it half or even
    "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Inner and outer halves will sound slightly different, not sure this will merit the switching complication, maybe you can hear something playing alone in a basement at low volume and *focusing* on it, but I guess onstage, loud, and with other musicians around any difference will be lost.

    Physically: output level and inductance remain the same, resistance will be somewhat higher ... but main component of pickup impedance is inductance, not resistance; capacitance will be slightly higher, although difference may be swamped merely by choice of a different guitar cable, so...

    But in any case you are asking here things you should be experimenting
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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Oh, for sure! I have a guitar in mind that will have one pickup and very simple controls (maybe just volume with push-pull for tap or coil cut, maybe just a toggle for full/cut/off) and this thread came up at the perfect time.

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    rjb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rodgers View Post
    I have a guitar in mind that will have one pickup and very simple controls (maybe just volume with push-pull for tap or coil cut, maybe just a toggle for full/cut/off) and this thread came up at the perfect time.
    I'm considering doing the same thing with a lap steel. I was thinking a fairly hot humbucker with an on-on-on dpdt for series/cut/parallel. The tones would be selected in order from raunchy to clean. And with a "twin dual-rail" [EDIT: AKA "quad rail"] pickup (each side a humbucker), it would be hum-free.

    -rb
    Last edited by rjb; 02-19-2018 at 09:41 PM.
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    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Inner and outer halves will sound slightly different, not sure this will merit the switching complication, maybe you can hear something playing alone in a basement at low volume and *focusing* on it, but I guess onstage, loud, and with other musicians around any difference will be lost.
    That could be said for a lot of the tweaks we might do to guitars, amps and pedals but there are another factors besides sound, such as the response to your playing. When I think of a guitar rig being "hot" it is more than volume, tone or gain — it is how everything responds to my playing. So even though a listener might not be able to hear an audible difference the tweaks made to my equipment might make me feel more inspired which would improve my playing. Just a thought...

    Steve A.

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    My experience with tapped coils is that they only sound good when the whole coil is engaged. As mentioned above the unused portions are dead weight that will have a significant capacitance. No different from having shorted turns inside a coil. I consider them a waste of time but some guys think they gotta have everything in one pickup. If you could somehow peel the extra turns away when you weren't using them that would be handy.
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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I gave a like because this is an excellent observation to the discussion. Still, I will mention that you CAN'T peel then away the unused coil (well, maybe you can, more in a sec). So the burden of the extra winds is offset by the versatility for a given design. At least that's the ideal I think. So... Probably more trouble than it's worth, but if you could switch open both ends of an additional wind (yes, complicates switching horribly) you shouldn't suffer any capacitance or mutual inductance (relative to the end that isn't open if one is left connected). Perhaps some bending of the EMF due to what amounts to a copper case surrounding the inner coil though.?. Just thinking out loud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I gave a like because this is an excellent observation to the discussion. Still, I will mention that you CAN'T peel then away the unused coil (well, maybe you can, more in a sec). So the burden of the extra winds is offset by the versatility for a given design. At least that's the ideal I think. So... Probably more trouble than it's worth, but if you could switch open both ends of an additional wind (yes, complicates switching horribly) you shouldn't suffer any capacitance or mutual inductance (relative to the end that isn't open if one is left connected). Perhaps some bending of the EMF due to what amounts to a copper case surrounding the inner coil though.?. Just thinking out loud.
    Yes, if both ends of the tap coil are disconnected then you can truly have your cake and eat it to, and I wish a commercial pickup maker would exploit this fact. If both ends of the tap coil are disconnected, it still remains in circuit, because there is still capacitive coupling along the length of the tap coil and the primary, and you see the same issue occur when you split a humbucker when you fully disconnect the secondary as opposed to simply shunting to ground, but the effect of that capacitive coupling will be small, compared to the usual practice of keeping one end of the coil physically connected to the circuit.

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    Okay, so that means it would be most effective to use dtdp switching like the diagram in the first post? Essentially having two separate coils around the same polepieces. With some more elaborate switching, you would be able to use 3 different coil "sounds".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hout View Post
    Okay, so that means it would be most effective to use dtdp switching like the diagram in the first post? Essentially having two separate coils around the same polepieces. With some more elaborate switching, you would be able to use 3 different coil "sounds".
    I don't really understand the OP diagram, but you could do it like this:



    When the DPDT on-on switch is down, the inner portion of the coil is in circuit and the outer portion is disconnected at both ends. When the switch is up, the inner and outer coils are in series, as if it were just one big coil.

    Some tapped coils on the market are wound with equal turns inner and outer, and presumably the reason they do this is because the high capacitance of industry standard wiring causes the tapped coil to have a very low resonance, so if you end up using this DPDT scheme, you could have the inner coil wound with a substantially higher wind count than the outer portion, and still get a good effect. If I were doing this, I'd try 7,000 turns on the inner coil, and then add another 2,000 turns to the outer coil. That should cause the inductance to switch from about 2 henries tapped, up to 3 henries in full series mode, or "vintage" to "hot".
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  23. #23
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigua View Post
    An under appreciated aspect of coil tapping is that, suppose you wind it to 7,000 turns, then tap it, then wind it another 2,000 turns for a total of 9,000, when you use the 7,000 tap, it will not sound the same as a coil that was wound to 7,000 turns without the tap, because those extra 2,000 turns of wire remain in the circuit as a capacitive coupling. The amount of capacitance added by that extra bulk of coil is audibly significant.
    Not if you leave the other end of the extra winds open. If you form a closed loop, eddy currents will change the tone. It's not really the capacitance, but inductive coupling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    Not if you leave the other end of the extra winds open. If you form a closed loop, eddy currents will change the tone. It's not really the capacitance, but inductive coupling.
    That's what I'm saying, you want both ends to be open, neither end to be connected to anything. If either side is connected to anything else (itself or the circuit), you get unwanted L and/or C. Popular coil tapping wiring schemes with three lead wires require that one end be in-circuit, and there's almost nothing that can be done about it, unfortunately.

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    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigua View Post
    That's what I'm saying, you want both ends to be open, neither end to be connected to anything. If either side is connected to anything else (itself or the circuit), you get unwanted L and/or C. Popular coil tapping wiring schemes with three lead wires require that one end be in-circuit, and there's almost nothing that can be done about it, unfortunately.
    If one end is open that's the same as not being connected. No current is going to flow.
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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    If one end is open that's the same as not being connected. No current is going to flow.
    Except that it's still a copper shield in close proximity to an inductor connected to ??? and forms a capacitor of sorts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    If one end is open that's the same as not being connected. No current is going to flow.
    Like Chuck says, because it's an AC voltage, a capacitive reactance occurs between the primary and secondary coil, and because of the large area and extremely close proximity of the two, the capacitance is rather substantial, unlike a humbucker, where the coils are farther apart, and the surface area between them a lot smaller.
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  28. #28
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigua View Post
    Like Chuck says, because it's an AC voltage, a capacitive reactance occurs between the primary and secondary coil, and because of the large area and extremely close proximity of the two, the capacitance is rather substantial, unlike a humbucker, where the coils are farther apart, and the surface area between them a lot smaller.
    If the secondary coil is open, it's just some metal near the primary coil. Capacitance implies two conductors separated by an insulator. But in this case the secondary coil is not connected. So you can't have mutual-capacitance, since no current is flowing in the secondary coil. Maybe it can have self-capacitance? But again, no current is flowing, as the secondary coil is open. So what's the potential of an open coil compared to the primary coil? Anything at all?

    Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.
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    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Except that it's still a copper shield in close proximity to an inductor connected to ??? and forms a capacitor of sorts.
    Not it's it's open. A capacitor has each conductor connected in the circuit, and the dielectric between them. If you lift one leg on a cap, say in a tone control circuit, what do you get? Nothing.
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    Seems like this could be settled with a quick experiment. Then again that might short circuit a lot of discussion based on not totally well understood science. Carry on!
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    Not it's it's open. A capacitor has each conductor connected in the circuit, and the dielectric between them. If you lift one leg on a cap, say in a tone control circuit, what do you get? Nothing.
    The other end of the cap is the primary coil. You know a metal cover capacitively couples with the coil, no dispute there. Now consider that the secondary relates to the primary exactly as a metal cover does, with the double jeopardy of being much closer to the primary than any cover, (save for copper tape wrapped coils, a common practice in low priced Chinese pickups).

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    Quote Originally Posted by David King View Post
    Seems like this could be settled with a quick experiment. Then again that might short circuit a lot of discussion based on not totally well understood science. Carry on!
    I do have experimental evidence, with a tappable SSL-3, SSL-4, SSL-5 and a Stra-Bro 90. You just take the resonant peak and the inductance of the tap, from that you can determine the capacitance.

  33. #33
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigua View Post
    The other end of the cap is the primary coil. You know a metal cover capacitively couples with the coil, no dispute there. Now consider that the secondary relates to the primary exactly as a metal cover does, with the double jeopardy of being much closer to the primary than any cover, (save for copper tape wrapped coils, a common practice in low priced Chinese pickups).
    Right, but primary coil is a complete circuit. Current flows though it. Just like if you wrap copper tape around a coil, you don't want to close the loop, or current flows and you get eddy currents. Disconnect the ends and no current flows. A metal cover is also a closed loop because it surrounds the coil. The "H" cutout on Filter'Trons is intended to break that up a bit.

    Bill Lawrence had a patent showing a closed secondary coil around the primary to change the tone. But the coil has to have its ends connected. There's also a patent with two coaxial coils with opposite ends disconnected. But one end of each coil is in the circuit, i.e., one is ground, and the other is hot.

    So I'm saying if the secondary coil has both ends not connected to anything, how would it effect the primary coil?

    Tests need to be done!
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    Right, but primary coil is a complete circuit. Current flows though it. Just like if you wrap copper tape around a coil, you don't want to close the loop, or current flows and you get eddy currents. Disconnect the ends and no current flows. A metal cover is also a closed loop because it surrounds the coil. The "H" cutout on Filter'Trons is intended to break that up a bit.
    Eddy currents are separate and distinct from capacitive coupling. You can have one and not the other, and vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    So I'm saying if the secondary coil has both ends not connected to anything, how would it effect the primary coil?

    Tests need to be done!
    Think about a "capacitive plate", you have a large area that is only connected in one spot, usually the center of the "plate". The whole secondary coil is a plate, it need only be connected at one spot.

    I've done tests, here's a SSL-3T example:


    DC Resistance:
    full: 15.53K
    tapped: 7.80K

    Inductance:
    full: 7.842H
    tapped: 2.173H

    Resonant Peak:
    full: dV: 10.7dB f: 4.84kHz (black)
    tapped: dV: 9.4dB f: 5.00kHz (red)

    Loaded Resonant Peak (200K ohms & 470pF):
    full: dV: 2.8dB f: 2.03kHz (green)
    tapped: dV: 4.8dB f: 3.51kHz (gray)

    Calculated C:
    full: 128pF (138-10)
    tapped: 456pF (466-10)

    l2g6lxp.png

  35. #35
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigua View Post
    The whole secondary coil is a plate, it need only be connected at one spot.
    I've said several times...

    "The secondary coil has both ends not connected to anything..."

    Now do the tests.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


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