Need Some Help With My Pedalboard! (fx Placement?)

[noirengineer]

HI ALL,

I need some advice on the order of my FX in my pedal board.

My current gear/setup is as follows:

Guitar(s):
62' AMERICAN FENDER JAZZMASTER RI
62' AMERICAN FENDER JAGUAR RI
RICKENBACKER 360/12 w/ "RICK-O-SOUND"
note: the Jazzmaster is my main axe of choice.

AMP(s):
VOX AC-30 (CC2X) w/ Blue Alnico Speaker + FX Loop

(Current) PEDALBOARD:
HBE Homebrew Retro Compressor --> Whammy WH-1 *Original*-->
ZVEX Fuzz Factory (not used too often)--> Crowther Audio Hotcake 2.0-->
Nebula Phaser Pedal --> Ernie Ball VP Jr. Volume Pedal --> Line 6 DL4

ALSO: EBOW PLUS (USED OFTEN)

Now, I'm wondering if this signal chain is correct to achieve the best sound? Should I be utilizing my amp's FX loop? Should I change around the order of these pedals?

PS: I'm also considering adding to this pedalboard by adding...
(*) KLON CENTAUR OVERDRIVE
(*) Some kind of CHORUS pedal

NOW, How would I place those additions to my FX Chain?

[gypsydanger]

Well, technically you want all your time-based effects to be before any signal mod effects. Time based would be chorus, phaser, delay, yadda yadda. Chorus will usually serve you much better by being before any of your overdrive / fuzzes. The Klon is basically just a mid midrange boost which is mild enough that you could put it before or after your compressor and wouldn't mess with your chorus too much. You probably already know this, but fuzzes are better the earlier you put them in the signal chain, especially if there are germanium transistors involved. I beleive the Z-vex is a hybrid of germanium and silicon but will still react much better the closer it is to your guitar. There's always going to be some compromise depending on what pedals you have -

A little tip - Analog Man probably has the best ts-808 (klon) style pedals out there and will save you alot of cash too. He'll throw 808 circuitry in a boss sd-1 pedal for about 100 bucks and they're as good or better than the other mid-hump pedals (I personally think they're a hair more usable than the klon). Also, their chorus is the best I've heard (not super versatile, but incredible sound). A thing to note about chorus is that, contrary to popular belief, analog chorus will give you more convincing leslie sounds than a uni-vibe photo-cell circuit. It's gotta be analog though...

Hope this helps!

[noirengineer]

here's the thing.. my whammy pedal screws everything up because it just SUCKS TONE! that said it throws all my pre-conceptions off balance..

thanks for the advice

so just to re-iterate, assuming i added a klon (or similar clone) and a chorus pedal, my new signal chain would go like this?

HBE COMP --> WHAMMY WH-1 --> ZVEX FUZZ FACTORY--> NEBULA PHASE-->
-->CHORUS? ** --> KLON? ** --> HOTCAKE --> VOLUME PEDAL --> DL4 ?


What about FX Loop of my amp? I never use it, but not sure if i should?

[gypsydanger]

Ok...

Firstly, the more effects you add you need to start considering other things whether they're all true bypass or not. I would probably at this point invest in a keeley loop pedal. They're about 70 bucks now, and you could throw your whammy and any other tone sucking pedals out into the loop and take them completely out when you're playing more straight through. Another huge thing you can do is switch to George L cables if you haven't already. They're literally 200% better then your general cables as far as RF shielding and signal resistance. In other words, it's like cutting your cord length in half which will give you MUCH better tone at the end of the whole shabang. They also will give you a slight bit more of the sparkling highs that you want out of a jaguar or jazzmaster.

Depending on what distortion you use the most WITH other effects should be the one placed AFTER the time based effects. The fuzz on it's own will sound the best earlier in the chain but will not sound too hot if you use chorus and phase after it cause they have a hard time tracking the square wave. I generally use a fuzz on it's own, so I place it right after my compressor. (That being said, Hendrix set his up the "wrong" way, but the other fuzz meisters like Eric Johnson will generally set them up "correctly." )

I would probably do something like this -

Whammy (before comp to ease the high notes)--> HBE --> Klon --> Phase --> Chorus --> Fuzz --> Hotcake --> Volume --> DL4.

If the fuzz is used by itself I'd put it after the Klon.

Effects loops can be good or bad. I'm not positive about how VOX is doing theirs at the moment but it's probably pretty good. Effects loops got a bad rap in the 80's because they were over used and not well done. Advancements since then have made them much more usable in general. Give it a shot and see if you like it!

I would consider are looping out your whammy and grabbing yourself some George L's. You might even want to loop out alot of pedals at once to give you a nice clean signal path for your clean tones. Lastly, if you're finding that your signal is losing too much purity by the end of the chain it would be worth checking into an Xotic RC booster. These are excellent pedals and extremely useful for driving a long signal chain as well as some tone shaping. If you max the gain you can also get a bit of grit.

[noirengineer]

thanks for the info!

NOTE: I'm already using George L's cables.

Also, I'm pretty sure all the pedals in my fx chain (so far) are true bypass, with the exception of the whammy pedal.

I will give your idea a try thanks

[noirengineer]

how does this true-bypass looper idea work in that scenario?

[gypsydanger]

Basically you would replace your whammy or whatever you want in the loop with the little loop box. There are two inputs and two outputs - two for the line and two for the loop. When on, the pedal would just throw in the looped effects.

If all your pedals are true bypass then you would probably benefit from a line booster like the RC at some point. The only advantage of non-true bypass is that they are usually buffered and give you a little boost on the way through -

Let me know what you think of the rig when you're done tweaking...

[Mark Hammer]

1) The Klon is NOT a midrange boost nor is it any variant of a TS-808. I suppose when misused it can sound like one, but that's not what it is or is intended to be. Accept it.

2) It seems to me from the rest of your setup that a Klon might not be suitable for what you want to do. It is really much more oriented towards those whose focus is making the amp sound this way or that, rather than providing a specific signal to be amplified (which is what the rest of your pedalboard would suggest). That's not a criticism, just a different sonic strategy. My hunch is that Bill Finnegan would probably try and talk you out of it if you phoned him to order one.

[gypsydanger]

True, the Klon is not designed to necessarily be a mid-range boost but mine certainly has a pronounced midrage bump and so do all the others I've played. In addition, because of their reputation as having that inherent bump, people often buy them with that expectation. They are often compared to 808's for their clean boost ability. If you read the various "shoot-outs" between Klon's and 808's the mid-bump is usually noted. I assumed that since you already had a fuzz and a distortion pedal you were looking at the Klon strictly for its boost ability. If this is the case, I expect you will notice the mid boost. As Mark Hammer said, it's designed for other things. What are you planning on using it for?

[R.G.]

Well, technically you want all your time-based effects to be before any signal mod effects. Time based would be chorus, phaser, delay, yadda yadda. Chorus will usually serve you much better by being before any of your overdrive / fuzzes.

Why is that? Can you explain?

I've always thought that I prefer to do distortion before any time delay pedals because if you do time delay first, then fuzz, the delicate time delay is cooked to sonic mush by the fuzz blenderizing it.

You probably already know this, but fuzzes are better the earlier you put them in the signal chain, especially if there are germanium transistors involved. I beleive the Z-vex is a hybrid of germanium and silicon but will still react much better the closer it is to your guitar. There's always going to be some compromise depending on what pedals you have -

Doesn't that cause some problems with putting time delay pedals before OD/fuzz? Seems like crossed purposes.

A little tip - Analog Man probably has the best ts-808 (klon) style pedals out there and will save you alot of cash too.

TS-808 and Klon are NOT the same circuit, by a long shot. I don't think Mike makes any Klon clones at all.

[rplovanich]

I have some of the pedals/pedal types you have. This has worked well for me,

Wah>Radial Switchbone>
Loop 1 ZVex Fuzz Factory>Keeley 4-Knob Compressor>Full Drive-2 Overdrive>Diamond Memory Lane Delay>TC Electronics Reverb>Boss RC20-XL
Loop 2 Vintage Pedals>MXR Dyna Comp>Mxr Phase 90>Boss DD-2 Digital Delay>Boss CE-2 Chorus

I use a Pedal Power 2 and a 1-Spot for power. The Wah>Fuzz>Comp order really works well.

[noirengineer]

I LOVE THE ADVICE AND INPUT I'M GETTING HERE!
thanks guys!

Gypsy, i tried your setup, it works very well, everything was on the ball in your placement, except i might have to switch around comp before whammy and A/B that.. something sounds a little wierd with the comp after the whammy, loses something in there.

PS: im loving all this new info, except now i'm totally confused about this whole situation with the true-bypass, loopers, buffer pedals, rc boosters?

I was always under the assumption that true-bypass all the way through was the way to go, and that was the way to preserve the most tone? am I wrong about this? how does this all work now?

[noirengineer]

I have some of the pedals/pedal types you have. This has worked well for me,

Wah>Radial Switchbone>
Loop 1 ZVex Fuzz Factory>Keeley 4-Knob Compressor>Full Drive-2 Overdrive>Diamond Memory Lane Delay>TC Electronics Reverb>Boss RC20-XL
Loop 2 Vintage Pedals>MXR Dyna Comp>Mxr Phase 90>Boss DD-2 Digital Delay>Boss CE-2 Chorus

I use a Pedal Power 2 and a 1-Spot for power. The Wah>Fuzz>Comp order really works well.

VERY INTERESTING!

Can you explain the reasoning behind this? (im a little dense)!

Why two seperate loops?
why are some pedals in loop 1 vs loop 2? (how to determine which side?)
is there any type of inadvertent drops or boosts in volume when certain
pedals are activated or not active in a certain loop?

are ALL pedals ALWAYS ON ALL THE TIME and just controlled through the looper?

PS what kind of amp are you going to? no amp fx loop i assume

[noirengineer]

My confusion lies in the fact that where does my whammy wh-1 go?
Let me reiterate what your saying so far...

SETUP CONFIG Ex.1

Loop 1: (TO AMP DIRECT)
---------
1. HBE Comp
2. Whammy WH1
3. (MISC BOOSTER Pedal)? <--- Not added yet
3. Zvex Fuzz factory
3. Hotcake 2.0

Loop 2: (TO AMPS FX LOOP)
----------
1. Nebula Phaser
2. (Random Misc Chorus)? <--- Not added yet
3. Line 6 DL4

SETUP CONFIG Ex.2

Loop 1: (TO AMP DIRECT)
---------
1. HBE Comp
2. Whammy WH1
3. (MISC BOOSTER Pedal)? <--- Not added yet

Loop 2:
------------
1. Zvex Fuzz factory
2. Hotcake 2.0
3. Nebula Phaser
4. (Random Misc Chorus)? <--- Not added yet
5. Line 6 DL4

PS: I'm using George L's Cables, and Voodoo Lab Pedal Power II Plus

NOTE: All pedals with the exception of WHAMMY WH-1 are (TRUE-BYPASS)
Now the whammy really mangles my signal once anything goes
through it (TONE SUCKER)! Would I benefit from a true-bypass
looping device? Do i need a (BUFFERED BYPASS) type pedal
somewhere in that equation to boost the signal?

Is having a completely "TRUE BYPASSED" setup hurting my signal
or helping my signal? Do I need an RC Booster or Clean Boost of
some sort in this equation?

[dumbassbob]

That one guy is Wrong!!! All your time FX should be in theAmps FX Loop If your wha and fuzz are sucking tone get a Tonebone or one of those in a chain loops.So you can bring the wha,and fuzz in and out as you need.Try to get one that is Active,that way it will boost the signal chain.I bought 4 Whirlwind "Commanders"10 years ago they have 19db and you can run a lineout to a mixer Never put Delay infront of wha fuzz ect.Buy a old Guitar World magazine from the late 1980's early1990's They show alot of that stuff Also go to www.metroamp.com /forum. They will help you out.If I was not clear email me back

[dumbassbob]

I know the Mr.Gypsydanger might be try'n to help NEVER put Delay Before Wha,Fuzz.Voodo Lab makes a ok chain loop for all your front end pedals,wha fuzz even your phaser,but if the amp has its own FX loop in the back put you delay there.

[chipaudette]

Yeah, I'm really against chorus/delay/reverb in front of a fuzz/distortion box myself. My approach might be really old-fashioned, but I always vote for the order of:

(1) gain/distortion boxes
(2) chorus/phasers/flangers
(3) delays
(4) reverbs

If you use a compressor, it can go before or after your gain/distortion box. It's your call. If you use a wah, it can go before or after your gain/distortion box...though I think most people do it before. If you use an EQ pedal, it can go before or after the gain/distortion box depending on what you're going for.

The argument with FX loop or not boils down to whether or not you use the gain/overdrive/distortion built into your amp. If you like to use the amp's built-in distortion/overdrive, then you should put all items from (2)-(4) above into your FX loop. If you never use your amp's distortion/overdrive, then it doesn't matter if you put them in the amp's FX loop or not.

These comments are just old-school, traditional, and boring. But, they've served millions of guitarists well over the years. By all means go try radical configurations like putting your fuzz/distortion last. But, man, when I do that I really dislike the muddy sound. But, to each his own. All that matters is that you have fun!

Chip

[noirengineer]

Yeah, I'm really against chorus/delay/reverb in front of a fuzz/distortion box myself. My approach might be really old-fashioned, but I always vote for the order of:

(1) gain/distortion boxes
(2) chorus/phasers/flangers
(3) delays
(4) reverbs

agreed.

I like this order (ALL IN DIRECT AMP INPUT)

1. hbe comp
2. zvex fuzz
3. hotcake overdrive
4. nebula phaser
5. chorus
6. Ernie ball volume pedal
7. line 6 DL4 delay

Now what am I supposed to do with my whammy?
Will i need to put a booster pedal somewhere? Where?
after whammy (the only tone sucker in my chain so far)?

[Liam]

Sorry, a bit late chiming in with this, have been busy building another pedalboard!

Yes, your order of effects looks good to me, I also go for putting effects in the order you/Chipaudette use. I.E. dynamic filters (and compression), then distortion/overdrive, then phase/colour/trem/vib, then delay, then reverb. There are no rules, but this works for me. Use your ears...

Loopers, yes, the effect stays on all the time, and the looper sends your effect through it or not in a true bypass stylee. It's actually reasonable straight forward to make your own. You could even go wild and try to put some form of impedance matching in there.

I'd probably put the whammy EITHER inbetween the chorus and the volume OR inbetween the hotcake and the nebula. I'd try it both ways and see what I like the sound of best.

I NEVER use amplifier effects loops for pedals. Used to use them for some rackmount stuff, but the true colour of a decent distortion effect, or for that matter a nice old phaser or flanger, is only truly "good sounding" to me when it's abusing the input stage of a tube amp.

I used to like a preamp at the end of the effects chain (MXR microamp), but I find the preamp of a copicat tape echo does the job pretty well.

As for true bypass - people think of it as a be all and end all - it isn't. I generally remove a pedal from the loop, see if it colours the tone or sucks anything from it, if I can't hear it doing it at home the audience sure as hell aren't going to notice. Pedals I have owned that have really needed true bypass have been colorsound supa tonebender and tonebender, fuzzface, dunlop and vox wahs. I honestly think that's about it.

FWIW my newest creation's signal path goes:

Lovetone meatball
MXR Dynacomp
Ibanez TS10
Proco RATII
MXR Phase 90
EH Small Clone
EH Electric Mistress
Roger Mayer Voodoo Vibe
WEM Copicat (later transistor version)

The meatball and the clone are new additions that I'll be testing this week, but everything else was on my old board, (together with a Big Muff, Dunlop Wah and a Colorsound Supatonebender, a few other bits and pieces too), and all obvious combinations sounded pretty good to me.

Another thing - don't know how much George L cables are, but I'm a real sucker for Neutrik jacks and quality cable (Van Damme or Klotz). Made my own cables for this board, but Session Award Cleartones use the same parts I love, and the cost of finished cables is less than I pay for the parts.

Liam

[noirengineer]

george ls sooo over-rated for the prices

[noirengineer]

Question:

My whammy pedal is the major concern, when it's active or inactive in the chain but (not true bypassed).. it kills my tone and sucks volume!

That's my main concern, the whammy wh1 is such a cool little effect,
but its a shame i usually keep off to the side, unhooked (and not in my pedalboard).

I've heard of true-bypass loopers, but how can this solve my tone sucking issue? I figure that whammy is the only one that needs a looper, but won't
i just get a huge dip in volume when the loop is activated, and then a huge
tone / volume jump when stomping out of loop.

There's gotta be a way to solve this problem!

[chipaudette]

Here's what you want...

Boss LS-2 Line Selector

You put this pedal in your chain of pedals exactly where you would have placed your whammy. Then, you connect the whammy pedal to this LS-2 line selector pedal via the send and return jacks on the LS-2 pedal. Your whammy is only connected to the LS-2 pedal...it is connected to nothing else.

With this LS-2 pedal, you always leave your whammy pedal activated. But, by default, the LS-2 pedal will have the whammy out of the signal path, so you don't hear it and it'll have no effect on your sound. You'll have pure suck-free tone (I wish I had suck-free tone).

Then, when you want to use the whammy pedal, you step on the LS-2 pedal. It brings your whammy pedal into the signal chain. Now, go ahead and work your magic on the whammy. Sweet.

When you're done, step on the LS-2 pedal again and it'll cut the whammy out of your chain again. No tone suck.

This thing is currently $80 at Musicians Friend (link above). You might find one cheaper by looking for used ones on eBay or something. Either way, problem solved.

Chip

[Liam]

Not the cheapest way of doing it, but that will definitely work.

Liam

[chipaudette]

I agree it's not cheap. You could build your own loop pedal. And, unlike the Boss pedal, it could be completely passive (ie, not battery or power supply). You'd need:

Four 1/4" jacks
One DPDT footswitch ($8-$10)
A little bit of wire
A robust enclosure to mount everything inside

So, it's $20-30 in parts, depending on the enclosure. But, I hate building/cutting/drilling enclosures. And, once built, robustness is a concern. Eveything that I build is not robust enough to be stomped on...I'd quickly find that it would start acting very intermittently. It would be so annoying. And it would look like crap because I've got no graphics skills.

But, that's simply a reflection of my inadequacies in building pedals. Most people have better skills with that sort of thing. With something that you just want to work, though, $80 is not too much (to me) for piece of mind.

Chip

[dumbassbob]

Buy a Line or looper.By the time you get parts and time it will cost the same.Also what kind of Whammy pedal is it.Are you giveing it the right power.If its a Digitech it need the right wall wart No batterys.My DOD pedals take 10 volts .Only old Vox Crybabys sound good with batterys

[robrhy]

Have a look here http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages...erSwitcher.htm see if that's any help.

[dumbassbob]

Thats a nice diagram,Is there one like that to make a 6 in line looper series box

[Ben N]

Just a couple of comments:

W/re fuzz and delay/chorus: You need to be sensitive to the headroom of the delay or chorus input. If you are in the habit of getting a big boost from your overdrive (and I'm guessing that the Hotcake is meant to overdrive the AC30), then you might want it after the delay, since overdriving a delay or chorus is generally not a good thing, sonically. If you are looking for the distortion pedal to create your distortion tone, then run it ahead of the delay-based pedals, but at unity gain or close to it. Ultimately, "correct" order depends on how you use the pedals in combinations.

As for the Whammy sucking tone in bypass, there are really only two solutions: buffer it or bypass it. Buffering can be accomplished as simply as sandwiching it between buffered pedals, like Boss. I keep a mix of buffered (like Boss & Ibanez), TBP (like Barber, EHX reissue and stuff I have modded) and crappy bypass pedals (like vintage MXR, EHX and Marshall)) on my board, and usually making sure there are buffers fore and aft of the crappy ones takes care of the tone sucking problem pretty well. Of course the idea of an outboard bypass, whether a buffered one like the Boss LS-2 or a simple DIY passive true bypass pedal, will do you fine, but it means adding a pedal to an already crowded board.