Fender Wide Range Humbucker patent

[DrStrangelove]

Can't find the patent on this one.

Seth Lover is said to have designed it for Fender for use on 1971-79 Thinline Telecaster and Starcaster (Coronado?) hollow bodies.

Some sources say the pickups differed from the Lover PAF in that
they used Cunife for the pole magnets, and were somewhat
underwound at 6800 winds total.

Cunife I's numbers suggest a slightly undercharged Alnico II
save that it was much easier to machine.

Does anyone have a patent number?
I'm guessing it would be between 1968 and 1974.

-drh

[Old Tele man]

...I did a GOOGLE PATENT search on Seth Lover+Fender+CuNiFe and didn't find anything, but that was a couple years ago.

...FWIW, CuNiFe materials are *still* around and in use, predominately as core slugs in Linear Velocity Transducers.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...I did a GOOGLE PATENT search on Seth Lover+Fender+CuNiFe and didn't find anything, but that was a couple years ago.

Be aware that Google Patent runs on scanned OCR-converted images, yielding searchable text that is rife with errors, making keyword search chancy. Try more smaller searches, to reduce the impact of OCR garbles.

[Possum]

buy a real one and take it apart. I had one on a tele when I was a kid, I hated that thing.....

[DrStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Possum

buy a real one and take it apart. I had one on a tele when I was a kid, I hated that thing.....

We're building a pickup patents table over at
http://www.pickupedia.info/index.php/Patents

I'm trying to get the table filled out,
so I don't need the actual pup structure bits right yet.

-drh
--

[Possum]

why don't you have a photo gallery of pickup pix there as well. I look forever trying to find a P13 photo of the guts, none on the web.

[DrStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Possum

why don't you have a photo gallery of pickup pix there as well. I look forever trying to find a P13 photo of the guts, none on the web.

You expect a f*ck of a lot from a project that started five days ago.

And yes, a list of pickups with images and maybe drawings of the
internals of basic pickup types is essential, but where do we get
drawings that are not copyrighted? Go begging hat in hand to
Duncan, DiMarzio,etc?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Submissions would be even better.

-drh

[Old Tele man]

...I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "maybe" CBS-Fender didn't actually patent the Fender/Seth Lover "Wide-Range Humbucker Pickup" for three possible reasons: (A) it was designed by Seth Lover who had also designed the original HB for Gibson, (B) it was only a 'utility' design-change (location of adjusting screws), and (C) the use of CuNiFe wasn't considered unique enough(?)

...I'm just guessing here, because I've searched and found nothing.

[David Schwab]

Lover's original patent covers split coil humbuckers like this. Fender got around the patent when making the P bass pickup, by getting their own patent on a split coil pickup with unequal size coils.

So maybe it was Lover's original patent.

[Old Tele man]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

So maybe it was Lover's original patent.

...could be, but I doubt it since he (Seth Lover) assigned all rights to Gibson...and I seriously doubt CBS-Fender would "rent" manufacturing rights.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

And yes, a list of pickups with images and maybe drawings of the internals of basic pickup types is essential, but where do we get drawings that are not copyrighted? Go begging hat in hand to
Duncan, DiMarzio,etc?

The cleanest solution is to make one's own drawings, and copyright them for good measure. The copyright owner can then choose to publish the work on the web. Copyright protects the expression, not the idea. Unlike patents.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...could be, but I doubt it since he (Seth Lover) assigned all rights to Gibson...and I seriously doubt CBS-Fender would "rent" manufacturing rights.

True.

Were the Wide Range pickups ever patented?

Maybe it's this one then? 3177283

[Old Tele man]

...couldn't be #3177283 because it's Leo Fender-era and was submitted in 1961, and Seth Lover was later, during the CBS-era...mid-late 1960's.

...it's an interesting design though, having the tone control only on the treble two strings!

[madialex]

Am I missing something or is the Patent web site messed up. For about 2 weeks I cant get any text or Pictures to come up, the page loads with the next page, previous page arrow things and tells how many pages but no visible text or pics?????

[DrStrangelove]

Originally Posted by madialex

Am I missing something or is the Patent web site messed up. For about 2 weeks I cant get any text or Pictures to come up, the page loads with the next page, previous page arrow things and tells how many pages but no visible text or pics?????

If you mean the US Patent office, then you may need to tweak your browser
plug-in configuration to use QuickTime to read the USPTO .tiff images.

I can't get anything to happen under Linux and have resorted to
downloading .pdf files from PAT2PDF.ORG

Can someone else help here?
I don't use Internet Explorer.

-drh

[Dave Kerr]

Even with the QT plugins in IE, the USPTO image downloads are a POS. Google or pat2pdf are much clearer to read, though I haven't found a good way to pass a known patent number to either site in the wiki. Might it make sense to download the pdf files and upload to tboy's image hosting area, and link to there frmo the wiki? Pat2pdf does permit multiple downloads, and it'd be easy enough to extract the patent numbers from the table.

[DrStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Dave Kerr

Even with the QT plugins in IE, the USPTO image downloads are a POS.

By editing the QT files config, I got QuickTime to handle USPTO .tiff images
under Firefox and Opera 9.25
Google looks no better, no worse than the USPTO.

Google or pat2pdf are much clearer to read, though I haven't found a good way to pass a known patent number to either site in the wiki.

The google search link won't go directly to the patent but to a link.

For instance, for the Charlie Christian pickup patent, the search string
patent:2087106 generates this URL:

http://www.google.com/patents?q=patent%3A2087106

Then, you click on the link it provides and arrive at the patent document.

Might it make sense to download the pdf files and upload to tboy's image hosting area, and link to there frmo the wiki? Pat2pdf does permit multiple downloads, and it'd be easy enough to extract the patent numbers from the table.

I don't know if it is legal to republish USPTO patent PDF files.
Even though the patents are already paid for with public monies, the copy
distribution may have may have bullshit encumberances.

-drh

[jonson]

Dear Mr Jackbooted Thug Moderator Strangelove(must know Spence) Dan "Sir".
Bit like a few others here and don't reckon your gonna find this one.
About 2 years ago on a sicky I had 2 weeks with sweet FA to do bar play online and searched guitar related patents, the usuall way start with a few and search the cited references etc etc. Ended up with a database of about 700 pdfs covering bodies, necks, trems, bridges, pickups and complete guitars. Even searched pat no's off parts and even decals. Theres a guy over here makes copy decals and must just make up his no's as there is a few copy strats in this world with the pat no's for a horse sunbonnet, a mechanical device for stopping a railcar and an elecrical machine for finding the centre of gravity on an aeroplane.(sounds about right to me.)
Lots of pickup pats but never the one you want and I did(nerd) search at one point for 2 days just by knocking up a digit at a time and god is there some shit out there with a patent on it.
If this one is there then it's gonna be found by accident or a reference from something different but all keep looking and one day well someone may strike lucky.

[Spence]

Jonson, I know you said you were just hanging around waiting to die but you really should do something more interesting. That reminds me, the new year is here and I'll be doing a drawing for that burr walnut roof console for my old '65 Land Rover. That'll keep you busy for a bit.....

[jonson]

not a problem dear. I'm back on me feet again but still hurtin but have made my show deadline so bring it on.

[DrStrangelove]

Originally Posted by jonson

Dear Mr Jackbooted Thug Moderator Strangelove (must know Spence) Dan "Sir".

Uhhhh ... right. First, it gots nuthin ta do with sheeps.
The Nazi's would dismiss someone as 'Strangelove' (Merkwurtigliebe)
in the way post-McCarthyites would call someone a commie-pinko-faggot.

Second: If you call me an asshole, then you lose credibility.
No less a great emminence than Jason Lollar endorsed me one day
with the words, "Don't worry, he's not an asshole."

We have standards here. Your moderator does not shagg sheep
and has been authoritatively declared "not an asshole".

So, that's Mr. not-an-asshole to you, sir.

... Ended up with a database of about 700 pdfs covering bodies, necks, trems, bridges, pickups and complete guitars. Even searched pat no's off parts and even decals.
...
If this one is there then it's gonna be found by accident or a reference from something different but all keep looking and one day well someone may strike lucky.

*sigh*

I was getting that impression.

Well, whenever I see a likely patent, I'm poking it into the Pickupedia.
It probably won't be useful for a another month, anyway.

Thanks, Jonson.

-drh

[jonson]

Ok Mr Not an Arsehole Sir. Not that I would ever call you that. anymore than I would ever liked to be called An Arsehole. I resemble remarks like that so wouldn't use them to others. I also know you don't shag sheeps anymore than we do in the UK. Spence only pretends to and I wouldn't for other reasons. We in the UK love animals! "Sorry rephrase that" Like animals so dont mistreat them. I certainly wouldn't strike up a relationship with a sheep as I like to go to much hotter climates for the summer and leaving a sheep wondering where iv'e gone would be wrong. And down in the desserts we only have camels and goats so and dont do much with them either. It's all really a good laugh and best we just talk about pickups and patents before the rest of the world think we are just perverts.

Hey Spence if you get some spare time in the summer, hop on a kite and come down and see me.(some of them goats is real pretty with blue eyes.)

[David Schwab]

OK.. I'll ask again... is the Wide Range patented? Maybe we can't find a patent because it doesn't have one? If it does, it will be written on the pickup somewhere.

[Possum]

Whats the big deal about finding the patent, all it is , is a humbucker with magnet pole pieces and probably wound lower DCR maybe. Surely someone here has fixed one at one time or another. Duplicating one is going to be somewhat impossible to find cunife threaded machined magnets eh? If you really are dying to know then find one and buy it. I just spent alot of money on a P13 pickup and there ain't no patent for that thing. Those Seth Lover fender pickups are real boring anyway. another way to reproduce would be just use alnico rods. the only question is whats in the bobbin holes that are covered over? slugs or magnet pieces

[Possum]

dig out your check book,
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Fender-H...sid=p1638.m118

Great photos here and DCR too!

[Possum]

so the big question is are those slug looking things actually slugs or magnets made of cunife?

[madialex]

Originally Posted by Possum

dig out your check book,
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Fender-H...sid=p1638.m118

Great photos here and DCR too!

I wish him all the luck trying to sell the dam thing without the original cover. Why does he think it's so valuable, without the original cover it is shit IMHO. Does he really think someone would use it with the black tape covering the little prongs the coil ends are soldered to.?????

I rewound one of those nightmares a long time ago, yes the slugs are magnetic as well as the screws, not sure if it intended to be or not though... The bobbins are thin plastic and wont handle a lot of tension at all from what I remember and getting those tabs back in is a bitch in itself........... I wouldn't rewind another one if they gave it to me and gave me 100 bucks to do it......

Take notice of the slight stagger on the slugs

[Old Tele man]

...since there's no magnet bar, the slugs are threaded, magnetized, CuNiFe cores, just like the Fender Telecaster book says they are.

[Berman]

Hi everybody
I'm regulary a 'only' reader on this forum, but I've noticed on the Ebay-photos that there are no slugs on the Fender humbucker. The 'slugs' seen are the ends of the magnetscrews fitted from the bottomplate. So the slight stagger is made by not fastening the screw too much.

Just my 1% on this theme.

Hermann

PS please exercuse my bad english, it is not my native langauge.

[DrStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Berman

The 'slugs' seen are the ends of the magnetscrews fitted from the bottomplate. So the slight stagger is made by not fastening the screw too much.

Thanks, Hermann.

please exercuse my bad english, it is not my native langauge.

No worries. Your english is fine. Stay well.

-drh

[David Schwab]

Oh I see what's going on... one half of the threaded magnets are put in upside down so the adjustment screw head is under the pickup, so it looks like slugs from the top.

I always thought these pickups had split coils like a P bass... that's why I put up Fender's old split pickup patent.

I don't see much point in doing the poles this way.

[madialex]

Originally Posted by Berman

Hi everybody
I'm regulary a 'only' reader on this forum, but I've noticed on the Ebay-photos that there are no slugs on the Fender humbucker. The 'slugs' seen are the ends of the magnetscrews fitted from the bottomplate. So the slight stagger is made by not fastening the screw too much.

Just my 1% on this theme.

Hermann

PS please exercuse my bad english, it is not my native langauge.

AHHH, I see now, Thanks for pointing that out. Just goes to show how easy it is to miss a lot of detail with just a first look....... Wonder how many people are in jail on someones eyewitness acounts

[Old Tele man]

...has anyone recently been playing with the idea of "recreating" the old WRHB's using CuNiFe cores as sold and used in Variable Reluctance (LVDT) positioners?

...believe it or not, but the CuNiFe "cores" are available in different diameters and lengths from Trans-Tek, Inc., Ellington, CT.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...has anyone recently been playing with the idea of "recreating" the old WRHB's using CuNiFe cores as sold and used in Variable Reluctance (LVDT) positioners?

...believe it or not, but the CuNiFe "cores" are available in different diameters and lengths from Trans-Tek, Inc., Ellington, CT.

Link to the product?

[Old Tele man]

...try this: http://www.transtekinc.com/index.php...jax_highlight1