Overbright HB's

[ken]

Hello...

I'm curious,

I'm experimenting with winding some HB's, and I see that some of the completed
pickups are brighter than others. I am trying to wind every one of these coils exactly the same, same tension, number of turns, etc. Still, some are still brighter than others. Does anyone know for example what effect winding tension may have on finished coils?

Thank you,
Ken

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by ken

I'm experimenting with winding some HB's, and I see that some of the completed pickups are brighter than others. I am trying to wind every one of these coils exactly the same, same tension, number of turns, etc. Still, some are still brighter than others. Does anyone know for example what effect winding tension may have on finished coils?

It would be useful to know the Inductance and AC resistance at 1 KHz, and the DC resistance.

Joe Gwinn

[mick]

Ken
Have you tried using the same mag for each pickup ? I put some A2 in some 59's of mine , it made them sound very bright and thin ,
Mick

[Spence]

You need to be absolutely certain that you have set each pickup up exactly the same.
I find that the pickup pole to string height is critical and differs vastly within a couple of mm. So the treble bias may be just down to these variables rather than anything more dramatic.

[ken]

Hello all,

I made each of these tests exactly the same as the others...

I wound every bobbin with 5000 turns of 42 gauge PE, and used all new pickup parts from the same vendor for each pickup. I also used new Al2 magnets for each pickup. I dropped my Extech meter so I have to get it fixed (klutz), but my Fluke bench meter says each coil is 4KDCR within +- .2K too. Each coil is wound and wired like a PAF with 2 conductor braided wire. I remembered the threads in the other group about tape, so some of these have no wrapping tape while others have been taped. All the screws are flush with the top of the bobbins, and none of these pickups are potted.

But... I have one that is loud but is bright with no grind at all, one bright and grindy, and a couple of others are louder, but still not 'happening'. I did wind some of these somewhat tighter than others, but I'm not really sure if this would make that much of a difference.

Thank you,
Ken

[NightWinder]

Is the coils wound tighter drastically shaped smaller that the other looser wound(should be)? Did you scatter real wide, or close (replicating a machine wound, which again would be a slightly smaller coil shape) wind?
I'm oldschool...Coil shape is really important. I think you may have to explain the brightness.....and coilshape.............

[ken]

I took all the pickups apart for 'autopsy'...

The brighter coils were all smaller coil diameter after winding, possibly from tighter coil winding. I wound these 'sloppy', not trying to emulate a machine wound coil.

All I can come up with is that it is possible to wind a coil too tightly, then the wire 'packs in' and the coil gets too small. Too small of a coil = too bright.

When my Extech comes back, I will do ACR and inductance measurements on them. I have each coil numbered now so I can 'graph' each one.

Ken

[Spence]

How long have you been making humbuckers?
I think I know what you've done but I wouldn't want to offend you by suggesting you've made a 'newbie' error. I'd just like to help.

[ken]

You can go ahead and speak your piece, you would have to try very hard indeed to offend me.

Yes, I made a 'newbie' error I bet... I'm not proud, or ego trippin', and I want to know, what did I do wrong?

I've only been experimenting with HB's for a little while, my single coils are what I 'do' but I wanted to see what all the fuss is about with the HB's.

No, I didn't get the phase wrong, that was the very first thing I checked.
No, I didn't use extremely tall and skinny bobbins either.

Ken

[Spence]

So you've wound both bobbins in the same direction?
You've definately used the same magnets grades?
You haven't mounted one bobbin upside down when winding?
There are no mysteries...it's all explainable.

[ken]

No I haven't done any of those things either, if I did I would have noticed it. All the coils are wound same direction, both the 'inside' coil wires are soldered together and taped, my bobbins I used do have a specific 'top' and 'bottom' to them that don't look the same, and there is only one Al2 magnet magnetized for width not length so there is no magnetic/electrical phasing issues. I even took a couple of these coils apart so all that is left is a coil and a plastic bobbin, and weighed them on a gram balance scale, cos I was thinking maybe my digital counter had a 'senior moment' and was counting too fast (more than once per revolution) or something.

I'm hoping to find out what this is when I get my meter back, this is driving me nuts. I lost sleep over this one last night, no lie.

About coil shape...

/snip
Is the coils wound tighter drastically shaped smaller that the other looser wound(should be)? Did you scatter real wide, or close (replicating a machine wound, which again would be a slightly smaller coil shape) wind?
I'm oldschool...Coil shape is really important. I think you may have to explain the brightness.....and coilshape.............

Could you please explain 'coil shape'. and would this effect be any different on a HB from a singlecoil because of the relatively very short bobbin height of the HB? My coils may be relatively small in size, but I tried to wind these with a medium to wide scatter but still end up with a neat squared off looking coil with no 'lumps'.

Thank you for the ideas,
Ken

[Spence]

So your bobbins are all the same make and construction? All the same height and pole spacing?
When you say you solder the inners together are you meaning the starts of each wind or the ends?

[madialex]

I mean out of all the replies not one even eludes to a solution or answer. Why is this?

Tension does have a bit of factor on the tone as well as output, as well as coil shape.

Dont let the small size of a humbucker coil make you think it wont make a big difference as far as coil shape is concerned. I have found that it actually makes more of a difference on the small bobbins versus say a strat or tele bobbin IMHO.

Tension, coil shape between bobbins, tension differences between bobbins all make a difference as well as scatter. Maybe someone who wants to give an answer can chime in.

[ken]

Hello all...

The start of each coil is the 'inner' wind, so the start wires of each coil are soldered together, the finish wire of the slug coil is soldered to the baseplate and the coax wire's shield braid too since I'm using braided coaxial wire, and the finish wire of the screw coil is soldered to the center 'hot' conductor. This makes much more sense to me than some pups I've seen with the finish of the slug coil as 'hot'.

Yes, the bobbins are all the same too, same spacing and all.

I'm sharing this because I do love a good puzzle but I was wondering if any of you have seen this sort of thing before.

My local distributor is going to let me 'borrow' another Extech this weekend so I can try to solve this.

Thank you,
Ken

[Spence]

I find that a bit rich suggesting that no one is trying to give the guy a definitive answer. The main problem is that we can't see these humbuckers or test them or even listen to them. Therefore the most we can do really is suggest possible causes.

I've made a lot of humbuckers in my time and continue to do so and early on I made some idiot mistakes with some of them.

I've been trying to go through a checklist with Ken. Now as he ticks them off as negatives, it narrows down what went wrong. Remember, he hasn't got a meter, no mention of a gaussmeter either.

Perhaps someone would like to suggest how else we should get to the bottom of this before dishing out criticism.

[NightWinder]

(1) IS it possible you have a short in the wire? This can easily happen and get overlooked, a simple loop in the travers befor it gets to you fingertips, can give you enough of a knot to short. What about the wire? It could be inconsistancy in the wire diameter and insulation? Are you getting it from a reputable source?
(2) Coil shape: Haveing a smaller coil shape and the same # of turns, means more focus, versus looser wider coils at the same # of turns(less focus, but definately useful) and can contribute to more hight end because the coil is seeing a smaller part of the string, narrower field with the smaller coil shape. Much like repositioning the pickup closser or further away from the bridge. This is personal preferance, and R&D to what You want for tone. Funny, some guy swear by having a pear shape coil in there strat pu? Damn vintage guys!! Generally, tight and even coil shapes,,, but are by no means a rule,,,there are none!. You'd think 24k would'nt have any highs.....think again,,,,,next
(3) MAterial manipulation: Maybe you are working with high Zinc componients. This is a common plauge that just does'nt stop! Zink will give you the highs,reduced mids and lows. Pole, screws, and the mighty keeper material plays a huge role in the overall finished product. Maddness at 24k....Zinc can be the missing piece. Again, there are no rules.......
(4) Are the bobbins traditional size? Even is there is a 1.5mm difference in height..............You are going to change the coil shape, thus making the pickup sound bright because of the more narrow coil, versus the shorter, fatter coil shape from a shorter bobbin.
Of the 4 mentioned,,,and what you have said,,,I would really start with the Material. Seems you have a good grasp on things, and the short would be unlikely, but can happen.
No ego trippin' I just say'n...........

[ken]

I think the bobbins I used were very close in height to a real PAF, I had some taller than that but I didn't use these because I know about the 'tall bobbin = bright pickup' idea.

I had a customer once that wanted what he called 'Marilyn Monroe' winds... more wire next to the bobbin plates, less in the middle so the coil looked like an hourglass. Really. He bought them and left before I got a chance to hear them, so i don't know what he was after.

I am wondering now if there is a way to test metal parts for zinc? My parts are chromed, but now I'm curious.

Thank you all for the help, I can see you are honestly trying to help and not simply trying to 'blow smoke'. I don't ego trip, it is impossible for anyone to ever have enough friends that I can afford to lose one.

Ken

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by NightWinder

Maybe you are working with high Zinc componients. This is a common plauge that just does'nt stop! Zink will give you the highs, reduced mids and lows. Pole, screws, and the mighty keeper material plays a huge role in the overall finished product. Maddness at 24k....Zinc can be the missing piece. Again, there are no rules.......

Shouldn't you have said "zinc is the missing link"?

But seriously... that's interesting. Do you have any idea why that would be?

I would think the more conductive the base plate the less highs you would get... maybe some of the base plates are more conductive, and that's the darker sounding pickups?

[NightWinder]

The material in a Mixed metal like zinc has more Carbon content,Manganese and phosphorous. There's lots of 10.20, 10.18 , but the old PAfs had Soft iron, or Electrical Iron......and Cold Rolled LAmination Steel- Type 2 which is a specialty product availiable in the Annealed condition with Magnetic properties superior to Type-1. Annealed Product customarily recieves a light temper pass to enhanceflatness and punchablity. LOwer carbon,,,,say 10.03,,,or even 10.06 is too soft, and almost like lead. They used to make motors, generators, and ballast transformers with the soft iron.
Sonically, is definately a difference. The problem is finding the MAterial without breaking your bank!
Brass baseplates would soak that treb up. Crazy!!!

[ken]

Hello everybody...

I apologize to you for the wait, I've been extremely busy with 'life stuff' (issues) with my son.

Here are the numbers you were looking for about my pickups.

This one has a nickelsilver base and a nickelplated nickelsilver cover, 5000 turns each coil, coils wrapped with StewMac paper tape, and is wired as a PAF with both coil start wires tied together. The slug coil finish wire is soldered to the baseplate, and the screw coil finish wire is soldered to the coax hookup wire center conductor.

7.56Kohms DCR both coils as humbucker

7.648 Kohms ACR @ 120Hz
11.234 Kohms ACR @ 1 KHz

2.823 Henries 'series' @ 1 KHz

Thank you for your patience and your help,
Ken

[NightWinder]

What gauge wire? 42 I am assuming. What wire insulation? Different wire insulations achieve different things.....I'm presuming you know this already....but this is very important too.

[ken]

Simple 42 gauge PE, I think it's single build insulation.

I was trying to make a PAF as close as possible, but I was reading the posts on
'alternative' materials like brass bases. How much does brass bases and covers really change the tone?

Ken

[madialex]

I wasn't being assy about what I said, I was just noticing the disscusion going the route of shorts, extech meter readings etc.. Not much mention at all about different winding methods. I took it as he was looking for a possible winding error or what he might do to wind it differently thats all. Ok Spence, put down the StarBucks triple espresso and back up slowly.

[Spence]

I think to be fair, the Extech will give these different readings in AC resistance and would recommend using a conventional DCR meter. If Ken can't find the answer to this problem there is one other thing that springs to mind. The reel of wire he's using maybe wildly inconsistent in diameter. I have one such reel and it's a total write-off.

Oh and by the way, it's a triple espresso and Red Bull chaser for me

[madialex]

Originally Posted by Spence

I think to be fair, the Extech will give these different readings in AC resistance and would recommend using a conventional DCR meter. If Ken can't find the answer to this problem there is one other thing that springs to mind. The reel of wire he's using maybe wildly inconsistent in diameter. I have one such reel and it's a total write-off.

Oh and by the way, it's a triple espresso and Red Bull chaser for me

AHHH, Breakfast drinks of Champions

[ken]

The real breakfast of champions... Rice Krispies and beer.
'Snap, crackle, and burp'

As for the caffeination, I can speak from experience that the quickest way to get the heart goin' is washing down a yellow caffeine pill with a large can o' Jolt and a Snickers bar for dessert. I hate coffee, but I need the buzz.

I think one of my problems may be the bobbins themselves... I was reading that
Gibson wound their bobbins 'until full' and was roughly 5000 turns. Now, I wound mine exactly the same way, and my bobbins look like I can squeeze another 1000 turns on easy. I can only guess that the Gib bobbins must be way shorter than what I'm using now.

Ken

[NightWinder]

That brass will soak up some current, and might be what you need to bring down the highs......

[ken]

I've been thinking about this one for awhile...

I am going to start over from scratch, I have a Duncan? HB with the same pole spacing as my parts. I am going to rewind my bobbins, and put them on my Duncan HB with his metal parts and try that out. Then I will change out one part at a time and see what may make the highs come out. This way I may be able to figure out what is wrong. If it was just the coils, just rewinding would make the pickups sound better.

Ken

[David Schwab]

That's a great idea. Also, you can try and swap the bobbins from the bright HB with one of the"normal" HB's and see what you get.

Did we establish that the coils were not in phase? (thin out of phase tone)

[ken]

They were in phase OK, both coils were wound in the same direction with the inside of both coils as the center connection, the slug coil outside wind as ground, the screw outside wind as hot.

One of my friends told me that he had issues with the Al magnets he had, he swapped magnets with a Al Duncan and his pickup got much darker. Why?

Ken