Mission: Amp building class

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I'm giving more then just serious consideration to running a few two to three day, vacuum tube amp building classes again this spring, summer and fall.
I'd like to limit the classes to no more then 10-12 students in one session.
Why?
Over many years of "Elmering" ... teaching Novice, General and Advanced class HAM radio classes in Denver radio clubs, I have found having too many new students who need quite a bit of hands on help can diminish the quality of learning, so I think a smaller class structure would be easier to handle and better for everyone.
I'd just open more classes if needed.

This is the part where I hesitate ....
I actually suggested this novice tube amp building class quite a few years ago and got virtually no national interest.
(I don't know why.)
As a matter of fact, I actually got some negative email comments about trying to commercialize self help websites such as AMPAGE.... and from a couple off the wall comments from odd balls who asked such things as "who do I think I am" or "what makes me think I can do this" kinda stuff... ha ha...

Anyhow, back then I mentioned doing some of these classes to MOJO Musical Supply and asked them if they would be interested in participating.
I asked them for a little help, some small financial backing for advertising and parts discounts for the students in such a class using their kits.
They liked the idea but I got the impression my relatively small national reputation might not warrant them being involved much with it.

However, over the last year I see they have taken to sponsoring others with my "tube amp building" class ideas, such as Egnater, using the MOJO kits.
I hear the Egnater classes are excellent and the MOJO parts kits are top notch but I would find it a bit expensive at $450.00 per person plus the cost of an $1150.00 MOJO kit.

I have done a little research into two or three day hall rental costs, materials and other misc items and I think it could be done with any number of simple amp builds such as a tweed 5F1 Champ, 5F2A Princeton, 5E3 Deluxe, 18 watt Marshall or a Bassman-JTM45 type amp, etc...
I believe the actual class cost could be done for much less then $450.00 per person and with the right kit(s), I think a little "student discount" for those participating in a kit build could be secured.

I can see where hotel, food, travel costs to Colorful Colorado and the actual cost of a complete head or combo kit could be pricey in these near recession times, but the knowledge gained could really help some of the novice builders.
And, if a builder chose a smaller amp combo project or just chose to audit the class with no amp project, partnering up with another kit student, it could be quite affordable.
I'd even consider a "bring your own kit" if a builder has developed cold feet with a project they've already purchased.

Besides Colorado being a very cool place to come to for a few days, the other thing that would be fun to do after class is to have an open jam session too... I can think of many pro, semi-pro musician friends and customers here that would participate in the jam part and I'd have no trouble filling all the missing instrumentation parts.
It might be fun to hear your completed amp creations with others playing... etc etc...

So... although this is all De javu for me ... what do you all think and should I even be asking for comments here?

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

This is a double thread but I wasn't sure where to leave it.


I'm giving more then just serious consideration to running a few two to three day, vacuum tube amp building classes again this spring, summer and fall.
I'd like to limit the classes to no more then 10-12 students in one session.
Why?
Over many years of "Elmering" ... teaching Novice, General and Advanced class HAM radio classes in Denver radio clubs, I have found having too many new students who need quite a bit of hands on help can diminish the quality of learning, so I think a smaller class structure would be easier to handle and better for everyone.
I'd just open more classes if needed.

This is the part where I hesitate ....
I actually suggested this novice tube amp building class quite a few years ago and got virtually no national interest.
(I don't know why.)
As a matter of fact, I actually got some negative email comments about trying to commercialize self help websites such as AMPAGE.... and from a couple off the wall comments from odd balls who asked such things as "who do I think I am" or "what makes me think I can do this" kinda stuff... ha ha...

Anyhow, back then I mentioned doing some of these classes to MOJO Musical Supply and asked them if they would be interested in participating.
I asked them for a little help, some small financial backing for advertising and parts discounts for the students in such a class using their kits.
They liked the idea but I got the impression my relatively small national reputation might not warrant them being involved much with it.

However, over the last year I see they have taken to sponsoring others with my "tube amp building" class ideas, such as Egnater, using the MOJO kits.
I hear the Egnater classes are excellent and the MOJO parts kits are top notch but I would find it a bit expensive at $450.00 per person plus the cost of an $1150.00 MOJO kit.

I have done a little research into two or three day hall rental costs, materials and other misc items and I think it could be done with any number of simple amp builds such as a tweed 5F1 Champ, 5F2A Princeton, 5E3 Deluxe, 18 watt Marshall or a Bassman-JTM45 type amp, etc...
I believe the actual class cost could be done for much less then $450.00 per person and with the right kit(s), I think a little "student discount" for those participating in a kit build could be secured.

I can see where hotel, food, travel costs to Colorful Colorado and the actual cost of a complete head or combo kit could be pricey in these near recession times, but the knowledge gained could really help some of the novice builders.
And, if a builder chose a smaller amp combo project or just chose to audit the class with no amp project, partnering up with another kit student, it could be quite affordable.
I'd even consider a "bring your own kit" if a builder has developed cold feet with a project they've already purchased.

Besides Colorado being a very cool place to come to for a few days, the other thing that would be fun to do after class is to have an open jam session too... I can think of many pro, semi-pro musician friends and customers here that would participate in the jam part and I'd have no trouble filling all the missing instrumentation parts.
It might be fun to hear your completed amp creations with others playing... etc etc...

So... although this is all De javu for me ... what do you all think and should I even be asking for comments here?
__________________

[Enzo]

I think it is a great idea, and where better to discuss it. I would tend to think it might be a bit of a hike for a kid from say Michigan, and that might limit the interest. But if you only need 10-12 for a class... I am interested in what happens. I have been wanting to drop in on one of Egnater's classes - not far from me - just to see what happens. I think of myself as a teacher, so the process intrigues me.

[drlowlow]

I must say I think it is a good idea. The kind of help an experienced builder could give a novice that has even completed a few projects can be great. I mean there are some techniques that just can't be learned from reading about it on the internet or from a book. Things like it works better if you solder it like this, if you route the wires like this you will get less hum, and just being able to show someone the best most proven processes to go about the whole thing. Amp building is really an art and although the best way will always be debateable, if something is a worse way it is alot easier to show someone that it is and why in person. I know there are alot of tricks that I doubt I could learn any other way than to watch someone doing it and ask questions.

I think the jam session is a great idea too. There's few greater joys than being able to power up a freshly built work of art and hear some sweet notes in an appropriate context.

I think that getting national interest might be a bit difficult, but for the small group sesions I think it should be within grasp. I say this just because as Enzo pointed out it is a long trip for some and there is the expense, the time off work, and the travel that would need to be rationalized.

I think that any outlet that would substidize the kits would realize that they are expanding their customer base by helping develop the art. It will be more likely for someone to order another kit if they have a good experience with the first one, which in a controlled enviroment like this could be ensured.

Good luck with it, I hope it pans out well.

[tubeswell]

Thanks Bruce, very good idea - if I was in the USA I'd definitely be keen.

[csparks75]

I was actually thinking about the Egnater course...depending on cost, I might be interested at some point. I have tons of family in Denver, so a trip there doesn't cost me much to begin with. I won't commit, but I would find it hard not to strongly consider if that option was available.....

You're HAM classes sound like fun too...;-)

73s
KC5DAX

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by Enzo

I think it is a great idea, and where better to discuss it. I would tend to think it might be a bit of a hike for a kid from say Michigan, and that might limit the interest. But if you only need 10-12 for a class... I am interested in what happens. I have been wanting to drop in on one of Egnater's classes - not far from me - just to see what happens. I think of myself as a teacher, so the process intrigues me.

Yeah, other then playing music, ...me too.
I enjoy the teaching/learning atmosphere more then anything else these days.

Although living here in the Denver area is fabulous and the raw beauty of the Rockies in the springtime is incredible, but yes, a trip to Colorado and the mountains is a tough one for many so it might have to be a combination family vacation trip. That was a hint for you guys looking for something to do with the fam!
The reason I'd like to stretch out a little is there really are no other large cities near Denver and Colorado Springs (75 miles south of us)... well, close by like Detroit has which still has a decent musician based demographic if you include all parts North, Ann Arbor, Detroit, the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley... ha ha... I could go on.

I don't know if I've mentioned it before Enzo but we are all from the Detroit, Dearborn and Ann Arbor area. I still think of myself as Motown grown.
I have made the trip back and forth to the Rockies many times so I know what it is to drive 1300 miles one way.

Even with the expense, I've heard nothing but good reports about the Egnater/MOJO amp based classes and he does do an extra day for tweaking those handmade amps.
I think that's a great idea too.
Unfortunately, I've heard various mixed + - reviews about the G. Weber amp classes. Gerald is kind of a friend of mine too so I wouldn't discourage anyone from participating in one of his.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by drlowlow

I must say I think it is a good idea. The kind of help an experienced builder could give a novice that has even completed a few projects can be great....
I think the jam session is a great idea too. There's few greater joys than being able to power up a freshly built work of art and hear some sweet notes in an appropriate context. ...

I think that any outlet that would substidize the kits would realize that they are expanding their customer base by helping develop the art. It will be more likely for someone to order another kit if they have a good experience with the first one, which in a controlled enviroment like this could be ensured.

Good luck with it, I hope it pans out well.

Thanks.

I just got an Email from my friend Andy Turner, the owner of MOJO Musical Supply....he has told me he and MOJO would love to be involved and help out if they can.

So I think it is time to start up a syllabus.

Any comments are welcome and also, what type of amp project would be popular and not too costly.
Keep in mind, because of time constraints, I need to work with semi-uncomplicated amps because I want to teach some basic electronics, I, E and P laws, power supplies and other Hollow State technologies that can be applied to any vacuum tube project a builder might be interested in later.
And of course I'd share some of my building and tweaking tips with some hands on demos.
But I also want to play music with all the builders too!!

[Jag]

Every summer I go on my "Dad Holiday" to the Guitar Workshop Plus seminars in Vancouver. My brother heads up the bass program and some of my good friends do the various guitar seminars and workshops. I don't learn a whole lot new in the classes (mostly I end up assitant teaching) but I get loads of new knowledge hanging out with the faculty between classes and seminars. Overall, I have a great time and it goes for a whole week, 8:30am to well after midnight every day.

I've often thought about doing a "Dad Amp Weekend", Gerald's in particular since I've spoken with him on the phone many times and really like the guy. To be honest Bruce, I'd be even more hyped about travelling south to learn directly from you (or Enzo for that matter). Denver is not too difficult a haul from Edmonton, by air, and my wife has always wanted to go there.

I've been building and modding amps for a few people up here for a couple of years. My claim to fame is that Warren Haynes has an amp I built (I wish I could get that one back and build it right ). I would have an absolute blast at one of your classes, let me know if you're going to do this and I'll do my best to get there. The value in those type of situations is incredible. Getting to dialog directly with an expert is fantastic. This forum is really great, but nothing is as good as face to face. If you do this, your only problem will be stopping me from monopolizing question time.

[Functional Dishwasher]

Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps

This is a double thread but I wasn't sure where to leave it.


I'm giving more then just serious consideration to running a few two to three day, vacuum tube amp building classes again this spring, summer and fall.
I'd like to limit the classes to no more then 10-12 students in one session.

I recently came across a site that was in Chicago where you'd build your own amp over several weeks. One night a week, for three hours each. It too was limited in number. I think your limiting the students is very valid. I've taken many hands on as well as taught hands on classes and anything over 12 makes it much harder on the students.

I do think you have a great idea, Colorado is a cool place during all seasons (at least to me) and wish I could take part soon. I've just bought my first decent amp (I'm new again to playing) which is a sound '95 Fender Blues Deluxe. I've pointed several friends who are capable solderers to your site suggesting they are some of the finest kits on the market.

If you do continue and set up the courses I hope to sign up.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by csparks75

I was actually thinking about the Egnater course...depending on cost, I might be interested at some point. I have tons of family in Denver, so a trip there doesn't cost me much to begin with. I won't commit, but I would find it hard not to strongly consider if that option was available.....

You're HAM classes sound like fun too...;-)

73s
KC5DAX

Great!
My call is KB0TJ, had that one since about 1979.
Built my first vacuum tube radio in around 1964, an old school, 3-5 watt, AM, 5 channel, crystal controlled, Heathkit CB base station transceiver! HI Yikes.
There are a number of old time ham guys here and other guitar amp websites.
Even Ted Weber is an old ham radio geezer.

[Enzo]

Radio is where I learned my electronics back in the 1950s. I was into short wave, but never got my ticket. I had zero interest in CW. 50 years later they lift the code requirement. Now I don't have the legs for climbing the tower any more.

[clyde]

Sounds like a good idea. Hands on training for those with little or no electronics background.

Me, I'm an elec. tech by trade, yet never did learn much about tubes going through tech school. So, when I decided to do my first amp, I figured a kit would be the way to go. All the neccessary parts are included, didn't have to worry about having wrong values or wrong type of components to use. Follow the directions, put it together, play.

It was a great learning experience as well as fun. Nothing like putting together your own amp and getting good sounds out of it.

Had my Mission Tweedy for a couple of years now, without any reliability issues at all. BTW, that is it in my avatar with my mim strat.

P.S. even though it is technically "done", the soldering iron is always on standby. Thanks to all who are willing to share their elec. knowledge; been learning alot.

[mooreamps]

Would any of this include how to do the cabinets?

-g

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by Enzo

Radio is where I learned my electronics back in the 1950s. I was into short wave, but never got my ticket. I had zero interest in CW. 50 years later they lift the code requirement. Now I don't have the legs for climbing the tower any more.

Well that proves it, you must be an older fart then I am!
SW is fun too.. I keep my old FRG7700 out and listen in frequently.
We moved two years ago and I had to take my 60' Rohn tower and the ant farm down for the first time in +20 something years...
We live in a covenants controlled community now and no visible stuff is allowed so all I have is simple random 40m band dipole up in the attic.
And as for CW... well it is still attractive, but to a very small few.
It's just another form of comm and it was a big hurdle for some, but the people spoke on what they wanted so they could be FCC licensed and the HAM bands are what they are now.

Although I did not administer the actual FCC test, I use to work with the Advanced class guys and their high speed CW for the Extra class code test. That was funny because I never felt the need to go test myself.
I ran with a few OPs that could easlily smoke me at over 45wpm and some were mobile OPs too! Sheesh!
After a while you start hearing the sound groupings as a word instead of the letters so it is not really that hard to do if you like it and are motivated, but many like you just hated it.
Me, I always enjoyed it but I have not run much CW myself over the last few years.
I drag my old paddle out for fun and mess with it when I'm bored but that is about it...

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by mooreamps

Would any of this include how to do the cabinets?

-g

No, I'll leave that to someone else, I closed my cabinet shop three years ago.

[Enzo]

Well, I can start collecting my Social Security next year if I want.

[csparks75]

Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps

Well that proves it, you must be an older fart then I am!
SW is fun too.. I keep my old FRG7700 out and listen in frequently.
We moved two years ago and I had to take my 60' Rohn tower and the ant farm down for the first time in +20 something years...
We live in a covenants controlled community now and no visible stuff is allowed so all I have is simple random 40m band dipole up in the attic.

You should check that out some more, I don't think those covenants can apply to antennas of certain heights. City ordinances are what you ahve to follow there. I may be wrong, but I know for a fact that no covenant can prevent you from having a TV antenna on your roof (I know it's different, but only slighty). But it's worth checking out for sure. No one should only have a 40m dipole in their attic. :-)

[Brad1]

Hiya Bruce,

If I was still in CO., and gainfully employed, I'd consider it.

Zuzu, though, might be interested. I know he's been salivating over the thought of a Bassman home-brew. He's been picking up on quite a lot of stuff...(terminolgy, techniques, theories, etc.), but that might be something just a bit ambitious that he'd want to build with the guidance of a guru such as yourself.

If you have his number, you may want to give him a call. If you don't have it, I can email to you, or I can just tell him to contact you soon, when I talk to him again. (I'm surprised he hasn't called you already, after I sold him a bunch of old half-working "project" amps that I had lying around before I moved).

Take care,

Brad1

(PS. Maybe he'll listen to you about the idea about keeping the solder tip clean, and keeping the sponge wet...just so he doesn't ruin the tip and and burn a hole through the sponge, like he did to one I loaned him!)

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by Brad1

Hiya Bruce,

If I was still in CO., and gainfully employed, I'd consider it.

Zuzu, though, might be interested. I know he's been salivating over the thought of a Bassman home-brew. He's been picking up on quite a lot of stuff...(terminolgy, techniques, theories, etc.), but that might be something just a bit ambitious that he'd want to build with the guidance of a guru such as yourself.

If you have his number, you may want to give him a call. If you don't have it, I can email to you, or I can just tell him to contact you soon, when I talk to him again. (I'm surprised he hasn't called you already, after I sold him a bunch of old half-working "project" amps that I had lying around before I moved).

Take care,

Brad1

(PS. Maybe he'll listen to you about the idea about keeping the solder tip clean, and keeping the sponge wet...just so he doesn't ruin the tip and and burn a hole through the sponge, like he did to one I loaned him!)

HA ha ...Zuzu might make a good candidate for a little tube amp class but maybe you better take a refresher course on not lending out your tools!
I didn't know you moved. How long ago was that.
Far enough away that does it mean Zuzu is on his own?

[mooreamps]

Well, I think anything you can offer would be a benefit to the community. Certainly hope you get back on your feet soon.

-g

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by mooreamps

Well, I think anything you can offer would be a benefit to the community. Certainly hope you get back on your feet soon.

-g

Thanks Gary... about 7 weeks after the surgery and I'm now up to using a whopping 2lb weight in my physical therapy sessions. Ha ha... pretty depressing.
I just started 5lb bicep curls last Friday!
Wow.... that's all I can do for a couple more weeks again.
The rotation manipulations were the toughest.. every day felt like I was being subjected to a pro wrestler's submission hold, until I'd scream...
Going stir-crazy, but I'm still looking at sometime around early to mid June for returning to a semi-normal life style.

[Jag]

I feel for you Bruce!!!

I don't know what your surgery was for but I had surgery for a bi-lateral hernia four weeks ago. What really sucks is, I feel almost normal but am still under strict instructions not to lift anything heavier than 10lbs. I guess that insrtuction is right, last Friday I pushed open a heavy door and ended up on the floor. No damage luckily.

I used to do this http://www.heavyevents.ab.ca/ and that's probably the root of my issue.

Hope you recover soon.

BTW, even my wife is on-side for me going down there for an amp class. Let me know if you go ahead with it.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by Jag

I feel for you Bruce!!!

I don't know what your surgery was for but I had surgery for a bi-lateral hernia four weeks ago. What really sucks is, I feel almost normal but am still under strict instructions not to lift anything heavier than 10lbs. I guess that insrtuction is right, last Friday I pushed open a heavy door and ended up on the floor. No damage luckily.

I used to do this http://www.heavyevents.ab.ca/ and that's probably the root of my issue.

Hope you recover soon.

BTW, even my wife is on-side for me going down there for an amp class. Let me know if you go ahead with it.

OK I will!
And I feel for you too.
I hurt my shoulder when moving last November and tried to tough it out for as long as possible.
But sometime after Xmas, I simply couldn't stand it anymore and went to the hospital and after a long series of dye injected MRIs they found out I ripped the supraspinatus tendon off the ball end of humerus bone!
A little too much damage for simple scope surgery so they thought it would be a better repair if they cut directly into my shoulder and split the deltoid muscle to reattach it to the bone with these three little punch pins and sutures and ground out a chunk of my shoulder bone for some extra room and relief .: That happened at the end of January.
Been a bit painful, enough that I can't really even be sure it has been fixed yet.
Anyhow, as of last weekend, I am out of the sling about 85%-90% of the time... but I still have a long way to go.
The recovery is slow... about 4-5 months.

[Jag]

Wow!

[Earl]

I'd almost wonder if producing a DVD would be a good way to provide access to a larger audience...?

[Jag]

There are lots of DVD products out there. Some are really great and some are not. The thing about a class is the ability to ask questions and get into aspects that a DVD might not contain.

DVD's are great for learning the general do's and don'ts and the basics of amp maintenance and repair. However you can't ask a DVD, "what if I change this resistor over here"?

[ArtB]

Bruce, If you had a Saturday/Sunday class in which I could build one of your 5E3 Deluxes, I would cash in air miles and hotel points to do it. (Think I have wife 90% sold on the idea.)

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by ArtB

Bruce, If you had a Saturday/Sunday class in which I could build one of your 5E3 Deluxes, I would cash in air miles and hotel points to do it. (Think I have wife 90% sold on the idea.)

If I could get a couple three builders together we could do just that here in my shop.

[Jag]

I'm in!

[ArtB]

Wow! Coincidentally, United has a Chicago - Denver sale going on ($59 1-way, tix must be bought by tomorrow, 3/28).

Bruce and Jag (and another?), let me throw out a couple of dates that work for me:
April 26 and 27,
May 3 and 4,
May 17 and 18. (Better stay away from Mothers' Day).

What do you guys think?

[Jag]

That would probably be too soon for me, but Apr 30 is my birthday so I might be able to play that card to get away for the 26-27.

We've got shows and rehearsals most weekends in May so I wouldn't be able to make it then.

At this point, anything after May 31 is do-able for me.

$59.00 Denver - Colorado, good deal. I'm coming from Canada so my flights won't get near as cheap.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Just pick a weekend and let me know.
I can easily handle three or four builders here.

[soundmasterg]

I can easily handle three or four builders here

Are you sure? Depends on how sloppy they are.

Greg

[ArtB]

Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps

Just pick a weekend and let me know.
I can easily handle three or four builders here.

I think this is an amazingly thoughtful offer!
Jag, can you play the birthday card and get to Denver for the 26th and 27th of April? Anybody else lurking who would like to fill out the group?
If April is too soon, would someone like to propose alternative dates, perhaps in June?