To stand-by, or to not stand-by?

[Prairie Dawg]

Pretty cold around here too, especially this morning.

My own observations with light bulbs around my house don't support this however. The best example is the outside lights on the house. I live in a place that has has a very cold winter where the thermal shock factor from turning off and on would be very big for 6 months of the year. Before I got motion sensor lights I was leaving these lights on all night and often part of the day as well. They were only lasting a few months and I was having to replace them constantly. Since I got the motion sensor lights the bulbs are now lasting for years. I have them set up so that once tripped the light stays on for 5 minutes before turning off again. The difference is that the lights are being turned off and on much more frequently but are not on nearly as much. They last much longer under these conditions than being left on a lot more with lot fewer turn on/turn off cycles. This is just observation.

With pre-amp tubes they'll last practically forever whether they're left on permanently or not as the currents are very low and don't stress them much. But power tubes???
This might be an extreme example but I've had an amp for coming up on 16 years that is still on it's first set of power tubes. It hasn't seen a ton of use obviously but has been turned on and off many times in it's lifetime. I seriously doubt the power tubes would still be good if I'd turned it on in 1995 and never turned it off again.

[GregS]

My own observations with light bulbs around my house don't support this however. The best example is the outside lights on the house. I live in a place that has has a very cold winter where the thermal shock factor from turning off and on would be very big for 6 months of the year. Before I got motion sensor lights I was leaving these lights on all night and often part of the day as well. They were only lasting a few months and I was having to replace them constantly. Since I got the motion sensor lights the bulbs are now lasting for years. I have them set up so that once tripped the light stays on for 5 minutes before turning off again. The difference is that the lights are being turned off and on much more frequently but are not on nearly as much. They last much longer under these conditions than being left on a lot more with lot fewer turn on/turn off cycles. This is just observation.

It later occurred to me that the reason for this might be that the light is now being turned on and off by the circuitry in the fixture and is not being subjected to the same turn on surges as when connected directly to the house wiring. The circuitry is absorbing these to a degree. Still I would think that at a certain point the wear from being left on would overtake that from being turned on and off.

[redelephant]

I just skimmed thru the first few pages of the book I mentioned, and there is a problem for cold rectifiers where the cold cathode has yet to produce the cloud of free electrons. There is a good chance of destructive arcing in the rectifier. Even tho the power tubes are not drawing current, the first filter cap will suck a lot of current from the rectifier possibly causing it to have a destructive arc. So the standby switch will in some amps with rectifier tubes prevent this arcing. But as far as the other tubes are concerned, there is no damage done.
Confused yet?
Basically the tubes that supply current can potentially be damaged, while the tubes using the current are not affected.
But there are so many ways the various producers are implementing the standby switch. For instance Peavy only cuts the screen voltages, some cut the b+ supply after the first filter cap, meaning in both those cases, the tubes that can get damaged are not even in the standby loop.
Pretty much what it boils down to is finding out how your particular amp is designed in the b+ supply and then find out which method serves it the best.

[ThermionicScott]

I just skimmed thru the first few pages of the book I mentioned, and there is a problem for cold rectifiers where the cold cathode has yet to produce the cloud of free electrons. There is a good chance of destructive arcing in the rectifier. Even tho the power tubes are not drawing current, the first filter cap will suck a lot of current from the rectifier possibly causing it to have a destructive arc. So the standby switch will in some amps with rectifier tubes prevent this arcing. But as far as the other tubes are concerned, there is no damage done.
Confused yet?
Basically the tubes that supply current can potentially be damaged, while the tubes using the current are not affected.
But there are so many ways the various producers are implementing the standby switch. For instance Peavy only cuts the screen voltages, some cut the b+ supply after the first filter cap, meaning in both those cases, the tubes that can get damaged are not even in the standby loop.
Pretty much what it boils down to is finding out how your particular amp is designed in the b+ supply and then find out which method serves it the best.

Seems like proper design should avoid that possibility. That's why the rectifiers have minimum specifications for plate-supply impedance and maximum input capacitance.

- Scott

[cminor9]

In closing, don't "waste your time" repsonding to this, because I am terminating my participation on this forum. I can particiapte on other forums, and ask as many questions as I like, as can others, without getting into this ridiculous and childish behaviour that appears to be so noticeable here. For those of you who are so busy, what the hell are you doing on this forum if your time is so precious? Don't you have to solve some major amp issues?

Hey everyone, where did this giant chip come from?

...

Oh, it fell off someone's shoulder.

[g1]

Hey everyone, where did this giant chip come from?

...

Oh, it fell off someone's shoulder.

The chip seems to have arrived with the OP upon joining this forum. I felt bad seeing someone leave on bad terms like that. After a bit of searching it would seem confrontation and perceived slights were not uncommon for him. (the "sensorship" thing which is mostly deleted now). Right from the beginning lots of apologies and "I'll keep a cooler head from now on".
I realize some of the members here may be harsh at times (lacking what they used to call "bedside manner") but I'll take technical expertise at the expense of niceties if it comes to that. As an analogy, I'd rather consult with a jerk doctor ala House than the nice doctor who means well but removed the wrong patient's kidney.

[Enzo]

Concerning the initial question, I have found over the years that the relative importance of something in terms of it having any discernable impact upon what we do, is inversely proportional to how long we can discuss it before concluding ANYTHING.

[cminor9]

The chip seems to have arrived with the OP upon joining this forum. I felt bad seeing someone leave on bad terms like that. After a bit of searching it would seem confrontation and perceived slights were not uncommon for him. (the "sensorship" thing which is mostly deleted now). Right from the beginning lots of apologies and "I'll keep a cooler head from now on".
I realize some of the members here may be harsh at times (lacking what they used to call "bedside manner") but I'll take technical expertise at the expense of niceties if it comes to that. As an analogy, I'd rather consult with a jerk doctor ala House than the nice doctor who means well but removed the wrong patient's kidney.

Couldn't agree more. I have had a few gruff responses to a few of my questions in the past, but you look past the delivery you still get the benefit. If the person were a true jerk, he wouldn't even take the time to try and help you.

Some people are too quick to take offense and to tell someone off. Generally speaking, if a person is quick to go off on someone at the even most trivial slight, that person is one to avoid because your day will come. I try to avoid people like that.

[Jared Purdy]

I am know that I disabled email notifications from this forum, so I am not sure how it is I have recieved this. Nonetheless, I will repsond to it, as well as to the one by g-one.

If you want to understand what pissed me off with MWJB was his ridiculous, and insulting insinuation that I knew the answer to the question that I had just asked. He is literally insinuating that I had an alterior motive for asking such a banal question! As far as I`m concerned, he`s an idiot. His arrogance, disrespect and slander is so typical of what I see on many of these forms. Loose nuts. I could really give a shit if he has been building amps for 5, 20 or 50 years. What does that make him? I mean seriously, in the grander scheme of things, what does that mean? Nothing! Beyond reproach? No, how about a pretentious, opinionated-mouth-piece-asshole. That's more to the truth.

I came into this forum, asking a perfectly legitimate question, and what does he do? It's right there for you to go an re-read. My follow up comes several threads below, where I inadvertenly made a post to someone named Tom, when I thought that I was sending the post to MWJB. My apologies Tom.

If you really want to see the history of this thread, go back and read it. He made this accusation on the forth post. It's there, from the first question to the last. It's all there. I didn't come in here with anything, except inquiry. MWJB was the one to start making false accusations, and I am not one to sit by and let slander go unaccounted for. Again, read his reply, it's right there. And then Steve Connor comes along with more absurd and belittling insults that "I ask a lot of annoying questions". Well shit for brains, if your pin head mentality can't handle 3-4 questions, then maybe you should just stick your head in the sand, where it has been for most of your sorry ass life. Of all of the people that I have enountered on all of these forums, you two are from the bottom of the gene pool, and your knee jerk reactions to any question that rattles your cage is
predictable.

I emailed the administrators of this forum asking that I be removed, as it apprears there is not pull down menue to de-activiate yourself. Hopefully this profanity laden post will be enough for them to remove me from this circus.

[cminor9]

Jared,

Hey man, I have seen your posts over at TDPRI too. I don't mean any offense here...is English your first language? I have read this thread, just to see what people will say *this* time (this has been a discussion before here). MWJB might have been a bit gruff, but I don't see anything that is really deserving of the level of anger I get from you. If English isn't your first language, maybe you're upset over a misunderstanding of some words?

I have been here for a while. It's a good forum. I have learned a lot. Some of the people you are attacking are actually pretty helpful guys in my experience. But much like life in general, I find it's better to try to clarify your understanding before going on the attack. That way, you don't have to apologize to people (like to Tom). Most times, people get upset and go on the attack over misunderstandings. Or if there is no misunderstanding...why let some guy on a computer who said something a little cross get to you so much? Life's too short to get so worked up over something so trivial. Then you end up looking like the aggressor, as you have here.

JM2C.

[Jared Purdy]

Hello cminor9,

Well, some people are able to say the damndest of insulting things, and for some reason, it slips under (some/many) people's radar. For example, what comes across as the cross hairs in a rifle scope, is, well, umm, I'm not sure, but apparently something entirely different to some people. It goes un-noticed, and as you point out, rightly or wrongly, the person who comes on the defensive, is seen as the aggressor, when really it was just a slap right back at ya. I guess it's all a matter of "perspective".

From my stand point, it really means little if someone is supposedly "helpful", if they are also insulting. In fact, from my point of view, if they are insulting, anything that they have said previously is null and void. My reply to Tom was a wrong click with my mouse, I wouldn't read too much into that.

I have asked a boat load of questions, as you have no doubt noticed on other forums. Did you ever see anyone refer to me as "annoying" (for asking three or four different questions, as Steve Connor so eloquently put it), or ever insinuate that I had alterior motives for asking a question as MWJB did?? Have you ever seen that kind of insult directed to anyone esle at those other forums? I haven't seen that level of personal attack by/on anyone at tdpri, The Boogie Board, or The Gear Page. But hear, at the ivory tower, where someone with 5, 10 or what ever years (who cares anyways, as I said, what does that mean in the grander scheme of things) mouths off, and because, according to some people, he's a "nice" guy, a "helpful" guy, he's able to get away with it, he's excused, it's all minimized. Not in my books.

The original post was: To stand by or to not stand by? I then went on to expalin my inquiry. I've read it over a dozen times, there is nothing untowards in that post. Four replies later, and MWJB is accusing me of knowing the question before it was answered, and wasting his precious time. With the amount of time he clearly spends on this forum, I would say that yes, he is definately wasting alot of time, particularly if he is complaing about wasting time on the forum! And on wasting time? Hmm, well I'm not going to bother speaking to that as it will yield another rhetorical, profanity ladden tirade. Is English my first language? I'm not sure what to make of that question. Is it rhetorical, a jab, sarcastic???? Well I might have the occassional grammer, spelling syntax, or other error (most times I can't be bothered to spell check), I think that for the most part what I write is fairly clear. Yes, English is my first language, though I do speak small bits of jibberish, French, Zulu, Siswati and T'Swana.

[cminor9]

I have asked a boat load of questions, as you have no doubt noticed on other forums. Did you see anyone ever refer to me as annoying (for asking three or four different questions), or ever insinuate that I had alterior motives for asking a question as MWJB did?? Have you ever seen that kind of insult directed to anyone esle at those other forums?

Is English my first language? I'm not sure what to make of that question. Is it rhetorical, a jab, scarcastic???? Well I might have the occassionaly grammer, spelling syntax, or other error (most times I can't be bothered to spell check), I think that for the most part what I write is fairly clear. Yes, English is my first language, though I do speak small bits of jibberish, French, Zulu, Siswati and T'Swana.

yeah, haven't seen you run into trouble on other forums, but I am not exactly stalking you Your name just rang a bell.

No jab about ESL. What you write is reasonably understandable, as you say. I noticed that sometimes you leave off word endings, use odd grammatical constructs, etc. Someone with an imperfect understanding of how to conjugate verbs or structure a sentence might do that. This is the internet, War and Peace it isn't...so one could be forgiven for the occasional malaprop or grammatical snafu. I figured it was worth a shot, because maybe you were getting offended by some phrase that was misunderstood. I guess that's not the case; it's just a case of thin skin. We all have our areas -- there is a cafe I refuse to patronize despite its proximity to my home (and haven't gone into for over two years) because I didn't like the way I was treated one time too many.

Anyhow, hope you get your problems fixed man.

[nashvillebill]

Dunno why I should open my darn mouth but here goes...It is very easy to take offense on forums. Even the tiniest of misunderstandings, real or imagined, can piss somebody off. I've been at times in the pissed-off category when I shouldn't have been. Other times I've been in the pissed-on category when I shouldn't have been. I try not to get upset or to upset somebody else but hey we're only human.

So, in the interest of good Internet karma, can we put the bickering aside completely and continue with some technical discussions on this topic?

For example, my Peavey tube amps kill their screen voltage to go on standby, leaving B+ "hot" IIRC. I think Hartley Peavey addressed that in one of his writings but I can't remember. Anyhow, I am not THAT terribly concerned about my power tube life. I use the standby switch...as a mute function when the band goes on break, or when I have to change out a pedal/cord/battery and don't want to kill all the power or bother the amp's volume knob (say middle of a set).

[Jared Purdy]

Cheers, you say some amusing things, that I could launch into. But, I'll let that pass. From what I can tell, my amp issues are fixed (knock on wood), new Mesa EL84s, new Mesa rectifier, new fuses. I was at the store where I bought it (today), to get a refund on the Mesa EL84s from the amp, where I had to buy a new set. While I was at the cash doing the check out thing, I was musing with the clerk about the issues of my amp, and I mentioned how I have seen customers in that store flick the off/on , standby swtich with little regard to any process or outcome. I was "assured" by the clerk that the amps are unplugged. Not the ones that I have seen light up! My amp? I suspect that it was on the floor for a year with numerous people coming and going, turning it on and off in a matter seconds. That's what I think happened. That doesn't make it a "lemon" (certainly less so than so many Fenders, old and new, that I've played

[cminor9]

I just built a 5F2 without a standby switch.

I have some 6V6 tubes I really like. So I put one of them into the 5F2. Thing is, something bumped another amp that had these tubes in it. Long story short, the little plastic nubs that stick up by the pins broke off. Tubes are still good, but you GOTTA make sure you align them properly when putting them in. Well, I didn't. I just carelessly put it in, turned on the 5F2, and walked away to do something. I come back, and there is this awful smell coming from the amp. I shut the thing off immediately, and the 10K resistor in the power supply is TOAST. And the tube (people trash em, but I happen to love 6V6EH's) is finished, dangit.

Had I let the thing warm up with a standby switch, I would have went to play it and heard no sound. I would have shut it off immediately after one or two strums and no sound. But no, it sat there for five minutes cooking that resistor with I don't know how many volts (cause I don't know which pin was aimed at that resistor). I am very fortunate the part that was killed was a 10 cent resistor and not a $30 transformer. If I had rotated that tube just another 45 degrees it could have been something else. Lesson learned.

I know that cathode stripping isn't a factor for these amps. There is no technical reason for a standby switch. This fact has been discussed time and again here and elsewhere. I just like the ability to let the thing warm up a bit while I go and get something else ready. The only thing I worry about is that the voltage on the B+ rail is exceeding the switch's voltage rating. But everyone uses them, so I guess that's nothing to be worried about. I'll use standby switches. I am irrational, and I reserve that right. I happen to like the over-engineered mute switch.