Best High Quality E- Caps

[Amp Kat]

Saw a post a few weeks back but couldn't find it on E-Caps. So what is the best sounding high voltage filter caps out there. Being the Sprague is no longer being made and is so pricey along with it being oversized for what is inside them. I saw a review that said the Elna S series was the best sounding but had a high bass response. Is there anything you guys can vouch for in a high end E-cap @ 500 vdc + that will fit under the hood ?

[jrfrond]

F & T from Germany via CE Distribution are super-high quality. I am using a fair amount of them. Panasonic stuff is great too, but the highest voltage I have found is 450V, and they are pretty much all radial packages.

[Chuck H]

Also radial package but a couple of the Nichicon products look really good with low impedance, long life, high ripple figures and priced about a third what Atoms cost. I haven't had a build yet since deciding to switch, so no actual experience as yet but I'll never use an Atom again.

I used Atoms for years with no trouble but in the last three builds of mine the prices have nearly doubled and of these three builds one ghosts a little and another a lot. So much so you'd think the filters were failing. Earlier examples of the same amp have no trouble whatever so I have to assume it's poor filter peformance that is at issue. It takes a lot of nerve to suddenly start selling a lesser product at a higher price. I won't abide it.

Mouser carries the PW series Nichicons in 450V though they're not in the paper catalog.

I've read that the Rubicon caps are made by Nichicon with a different electrolyte for Rubicon and have even better performance. I haven't done enough research to confirm this but some of the Rubicon specs look very good.

[R.G.]

So what is the best sounding high voltage filter caps out there.

There is a trap that you've set for yourself in that question.

It's very much like saying "So what is the the best tasting food out there?" Unless you know what "best sounding" means, all that you can possibly get is a zillion opinions, and that then leaves you in the position of deciding whose opinion you're in such awe of that you take it. The bottom line is that if you can't measure it without asking a human's opinion, then you do not know what you're getting.

Note that this may make you feel better about your choices and like you really have all the most recommended stuff in there. And that may be worth something to you, even make you play better because you are confident the electro caps sound better somehow, but even if that's true, it's not necessarily because the caps sound better.

From the technical side, capacitors have capacitance, leakage resistance, equivalent series resistance and inductance, and other parasitics. It is possible to "dirty down" a unit with smaller parasitics to perform like a unit with bigger parasitics.

This is in fact the solution to the lament of the guy who has a vintage amp that's too "original" and too valuable in its original state to replace failing caps. He thinks that the newer caps will somehow be damaging to the amp's sound. But he has no clue how that might be, or even if it will be.

That preconceived notion sets him up for any change in the sound he thinks he hears being bad, even though it may just be the amp sounding new again. So the new caps can be dirtied down to sound like the old ones.

Your question is the reverse of that - you're asking which caps have the "best sound" when new. There isn't any good answer to that one either.

[Chuck H]

+++

Some caps do seem to change the sound of some amps. I have attributed this to he ESR figures and small couplings in the grounding circuits creating feedback loops (though I've never tested this theory). It's different across the board though so which cap sounds best becomes design specific. Not to mention that "sounds best" is entirely subjective. So with this in mind I think long life and high ripple capacity are still important, I think we all agree that heavy ghosting and hum absolutely do not sound best. So ESR or impedance become the tone altering factor and this can actually be adjusted (if you start with very low ESR caps) by placing small value resistors in series with them. I have never done this since I nearly always build my own designs and tonal properties can be adjusted elsewhere. So good quality caps is about the best you should hope for. Good sounding caps must be the result of what is currently blind experimentation, exactly replicating a known good sounding application or manipulating certain cap properties with peripheral circuits.

[Prairie Dawg]

As far as reliability is concerned, I've pretty much started using F&Ts for the power supply in all my repairs. Nichicons are good stuff as well. Spragues are too spendy for what you get. Illinois caps are ok and the price is right but I'm a little bit concerned about their longevity. I build for the ages.

[jpfamps]

I use F&Ts for virtually all repairs using either axial or can caps. They make 500V axials. Don't know if they are available in the US.

[Amp Kat]

RG you know I got the "Golden Ears" and can hear all those little things the caps do with that voltage.
Reason I stated it like that is because of this link below and wanted to see what you guys thought being everything said here is 10 times better than anyone elses words anywhere else. I can't say I can actually tell any tone difference but can hear some low end difference as far as bass but my highs are way gone as of 40 and can't even hear HF in a video monitor sqealing like a pig. Have had a few IC and some of the Ruby's blow up on me so I'm kinda leary on those. If you have ever cut open a Sprague Atom it will schock you how small of a roll is in there plus their prices have tripled at least. Was kinda surprised noone mentioned the Elna caps as they got top ratings in this one but I realize they are much lower voltage caps.
Do agree and appreciates everyones input and I do like the F&T from CE.

High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors

[R.G.]

Have had a few IC and some of the Ruby's blow up on me so I'm kinda leary on those.

Yeah, exploding parts does that to you!

Thing is, electrolytic caps are not the mysterious alien beings that the hifi tweakos want them to be. Electro caps were always what you did when you could not do anything else; they're inherently a compromise.

But I think that cloaking what is a compromise inside "technical terms" like
softness, definition, tone realism, dynamic, bass level, bass depth, space clarity, and voice position (from the link you provide) is IMHO, the purest nonsense. At best it's self-absorbed and self-deluded, and at worst malicious. I think it's amusing that the guy did a modestly good start at the hardware to concoct a blind test, then refused to take the step that would tell him whether he could even hear a difference between them. Honestly, no capacitor has a full body with overtones of parsnips and rutabaga, and a long finish with hints of oak and maple, do they?

I didn't find where he'd even bothered to match the measured capacitance values for the caps he used. Electro caps hardly ever have tolerances when new of better than 20% in the bigger sizes, and some are +80/-20%. That's kind of an elephant in the living room that gets ignored in the quest to sniff more corks.

I would have been impressed if the guy had bothered to match the cap values, measure ESR, ESR, DA, leakage, etc., then hired a disinterested observer to flip the switches in a random order, keeping track of which switch was flipped when, while both the listener and switch flipper were hidden from each other, and a third person kept track of only the listener's responses per trial. If we found that "softness" correlated with low ESL, or that "definition" was nearly always ranked with the measured DA, that would even have been useful; much more useful than blathering about voice position and the difference between bass level and bass depth.

I *think* that if the question the listener had to answer was not ordering by softness, definition (and aren't those opposites??) and so on, but whether he could consistently even recognize one cap from another, then there would be some useful stuff there. But he'd have to do better than random guessing, and I suspect that in an eight-way test, his ability to even say which was which would be no better than random guessing. And that would not have made for very interesting results to post on the net, and his hifi tweako friends would not say "Hmmm... let's' go do more critical testing." They would just have concluded that he has a tin ear and excluded him from the in-group. So he *has* to say he hears differences. This gets to being the Emperor's New Capacitors pretty quickly.

[Chuck H]

"I put this device on the test to compare same capacitors with different isolation. Higher isolation introduces less DA (Dielectric Absorption). It is as pleasant as 50V device with more linearity and less coloratura."

This is a classic example of how these clowns roll. Vomit a technical aspect and some related property (that anyone can read from a data sheet in seconds) but don't bother to relate it to a test result in any relevant way. That way you come across as having some technical history or understanding that most readers can't dispute.

"It is certainly the best choice on electrolytic capacitors for top end devices. Good sound for classical, baroc, jazz and modern music."

Uh, yeah... And red wine goes with beef while white pairs better with fish. WTF... This article pairs with ipecac.

[R.G.]

"It is certainly the best choice on electrolytic capacitors for top end devices. Good sound for classical, baroc, jazz and modern music."

That one cracked me up. Pick your capacitors to match the style of your music??
Oh, please.

"Umm... 'scuse me honey, while I change the songs from my "Beat Yer Head" mix over to some Barry White and put in the matching power supply filter caps."

At least he *did* put in switching to do that. I wonder if he brought them out to a panel near his source selector.

ROFLMAO

The funny thing is that he is completely convinced that this is real and crucial. And he will *always* hear things like this because he's convinced that he has, and that his hearing allows him to discern subtle differences that others may be too unschooled and simplistic to comprehend - and so he always will.

[NorCalTuna]

Fine Capacitor Tasting, 4:30 (can't resist doing this instead of acoustics homework!)

Well, this thread is indeed silly. Of course parts are specific to genre, why would so many manufactures made "redundant" parts, jeez... One time I put sprague atoms in a 5150 and all I could play was clapton tunes... so, I did some fine cap tasting today. I didn't bother to take pics of the amps, thats irrelevant compared to caps, but trust my results are double blind- I used TWO towels over my eyes. And earplugs.

First, today's selections:


From left to right, a nippon chemichon lower voltage radial, a F+T 220uf 300v, an IC 47/450v, and finally, an NTE 47/450v. I will begin from the right, as a control.



I bought this cap when I was down and out and slummin'. I didn't know if I needed the part, and the extra five bucks was a stretch that day, but it all paid off. Once I put it in my amp (which will remain secret so you don't draw conclusions!) I played the blues for hours, it seemed. it's construction is really rad, not traditional axial, so i was kinda playing like robben ford, you know a little more modern?




Next up is an IC from Allied. Why don't they carry the 500v ones? anyway, when I installed this cap, there were no absolutes, everything went pretty grey. it was groggy, kinda foggy, although more traditional then the NTE. I could really feel my cost savings on this part opening up my chops though.



This opulent capacitor is from Germany. It's very hardworking and drinks in moderation, and recently opposes nuclear power. Being that it's black with gold writing, this cap is good for people with luxury cars (german, preferably) and because of that sounds best while playing classical music. Or Death Metal. Being that it is lower voltage than the others, pairs in series will be used, having the advantages of flux regulation across the spiral'd insulator, but ONLY if this cap is used mechanically parallel to it's series pair.




This happy green fellow came to me courtesy (this part isnt BS, actually) of the Grateful Dead. It's a tiny little thing, but needed to be included because of it's history. I used it as a cathode bypass cap and when I did it was back to woodstock. There were castles n dragons n shit, hendrix was there, it was awesome. Wish you'd have been there!

[Amp Kat]

Hey this thread is getting funny but I had to post that link because I disagreed with all of the BS to the point that, it was funny. As of recently the whole E-cap thing was pretty much you buyed Atoms as they did the job and weren't that expensive but now IMO it's a pretty even playing field amonst caps and maybe the F&T may be a bit more reliable. It seems they are pretty damn close especially in tone which I just can't hear for crap no matter what kind of test you do to them. Even the IC Silver Salutes sound no different to me than any other but to each his own. Anyway glad you guys got a kick out of that as I surely did and will remember to do that swap when I go to play some Zep instead of Miranda Lambert. Cheers

[Chuck H]

Hey, I have a Cannabis Rex speaker I'll trade for that green cap... I'd like to meet Hendrix... And dragons.

Oh wait, it seems I must have smoked that speaker