6550 Tube Types

[telemoxy]

This is interesting if morbidly so.

So to recap ...

Svetlana enters into an agreement to have their products distributed in the Canada and the United States but fails to protect it's brand name in the event of a bankruptcy. Isn't this an error on the part of their lawyers to adequately protect the interests of their clients and Svetlana for allowing it to happen.

New Sensor then uses legal means to take advantage of the distributor when he is down. They acquire a competitor's brand which they use to legally misrepresent other tubes they is buying and rebranding by unethically but legally putting the Svetlana brand on them. Isn't this a failure of the distributor that failed to act in the best interests of the supplier Svetlana, the laws that allow this to happen and New Sensor because, since any children I know would tell you immediately that this is wrong, we can assume New Sensor knows this as well, but went ahead anyway. Isn't one of the issues here that because you can get away with something does not make it right it only makes it possible and but you have to live with the repercussions of what you have done.

New Sensor succeeds in convincing customers to buy Svetlana tubes that are not consistent with the public's perception of what is a Svetlana tube. Isn't this a failure of New Sensor for doing this, the laws that allow this to happen, the consumers who allow themselves to be duped and the consumers who know what is going on and turn a blind eye to it and therefore make themselves accessories.

Did I miss anything?

Sounds like just another day in the lives of humans beings on this third rock from the sun.

Having said that in the school I went to, everyone would have got detentions at best, Svetlana,s name would have been returned to them and the rules would have been changed so that it could not happen again.

Is life like school? Sometimes yes sometimes no.

[soundmasterg]

Rob, I'm not defending them either way. What they did was legal and has been done since the dawn of the tube age by other companies, and in other business areas it happens all the time. Just look at how corporate interests "buy" Congress with lobbying money and get laws passed that support more of the same. We all let it happen and its pretty sickening, but I digress. The other thing to keep in mind is that tubes produced by/for New Sensor in Russia supply about half of the world's total tube supply. We already lost EI and while many people don't like New Sensor or their business practices, we can't really afford to lose a tube producer of this magnitude and not have prices skyrocket or tube types becoming scarce again.

Here is the info on Winged C/Svetlana from the AES website.

Look for the “Winged C” logo!

As the tube world gets more and more complicated, it is important to make sure that you know what you are buying and how to identify the tubes you want to buy. Here’s the story:

JSC Svetlana is a Russian company that owns and operates the Svetlana factory in St. Petersburg, Russia, which has been making vacuum tubes for almost a century. These tubes have been known in the United States as Svetlana brand tubes and have had the “S” logo and/or the logo (a Cyrillic S) on them.

Because of a change in ownership of the former American distributor, JSC Svetlana recently lost its ability to sell vacuum tubes bearing the “Svetlana” name, while maintaining the ability to sell the tubes bearing the logo in the United States and Canada.

The Xpo-pul factory, otherwise known as Reflector, in Saratov, Russia is an entirely different Russian company that makes vacuum tubes for an American corporation that controls the Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix brand names. This same American corporation now also owns and controls the Svetlana brand name in the United States and Canada and recently introduced (last Fall) a new line of Svetlana branded vacuum tubes produced in the Xpo-pul factory. The Xpo-pul factory “Svetlana” tubes are not the same Svetlana tubes that you have been accustomed to over the years!

Rest assured that the Svetlana factory in St. Petersburg, Russia is still producing vacuum tubes and has no plans to stop. These tubes are available to you through Antique Electronic Supply under the “Winged C” name.

All current production St. Petersburg factory tubes -- and only those tubes -- do bear the mark, while in the past some did not. In today’s world if you want the tubes that you’ve come to know in the past as “Svetlana”, the only way to be sure you’re getting that tube is to look for the mark.

The mark they mention is shown on the AES website btw.

Greg

[telemoxy]

[QUOTE=soundmasterg;61377] The other thing to keep in mind is that tubes produced by/for New Sensor in Russia supply about half of the world's total tube supply. We already lost EI and while many people don't like New Sensor or their business practices, we can't really afford to lose a tube producer of this magnitude and not have prices skyrocket or tube types becoming scarce again.

I think we all share your concerns about tube supply and prices.

Will the reflector plant close if they stopped shipping Svetlana branded tubes? Highly unlikely don't you think. Their other brands are well established and very high profile.

In the unlikely event that this gets resolved and the Svetlana plant get the rights back to their own tube they would tale up the slack of the Reflektor plant. It would seem then that supply and prices would remain the same.

Isn't this about what we want as tube consumers? The Winged C SED are consistently better tubes in the reviews I have read and my own experience. Why buy the Svetlana imitations if they don't perform as well as Winged C and we don't agree with their deception.

Don't you think that the financial pain to New Sensor of the collapse of the Svetlana brand sales in favour of Winged C SED is the only thing that would discourage this type of deception in the future?

[soundmasterg]

In the unlikely event that this gets resolved and the Svetlana plant get the rights back to their own tube they would tale up the slack of the Reflektor plant. It would seem then that supply and prices would remain the same.

It is resolved. New Sensor owns the rights to the US and Canada use of the "Svetlana" name, and the Svetlana JSC factory in St. Petersburg has agreed that they will not use that name to market thier products in the US and Canada. Its not fair, but it is what it is. Now they know a bit better and will be more careful in the future I would guess.

Isn't this about what we want as tube consumers? The Winged C SED are consistently better tubes in the reviews I have read and my own experience. Why buy the Svetlana imitations if they don't perform as well as Winged C and we don't agree with their deception.

Don't you think that the financial pain to New Sensor of the collapse of the Svetlana brand sales in favour of Winged C SED is the only thing that would discourage this type of deception in the future?

In the end it will be about what the consumer wants as they determine what succeeds or fails in the marketplace. The Winged C 6550, KT88, 6L6GC, EL34, and some hi fi and transmitting types they make are all among the best in the world today. Their 12AX7 was a dismal failure however. It didn't sound good and wasn't reliable either. New Sensor has quite a few excellent products such as the Tung-Sol line for instance. Their Svetlanas are different than the former Svetlana/current Winged C's, but they are decent in their own right and are certainly better than the old Sovtek EL34G or the crap they marketed as a Sovtek 6V6 ten years ago. Some people even like the NS Svets better than the Winged C's, though don't count me in that group. As I alluded to earlier, this type of marketing or deception as you term it has been happening in the tube business for decades, and happens in other business markets all the time. You have to make sure to not read all the advertising at face value and read between the lines or dig deeper than the surface to find the real truth sometimes. New Sensor sometimes is a little sneakier at it than others, but there isn't much you can do about it. Personally I'm thankful they make the many varied types of tubes that they do, and try to make a decent product, and I take the good with the bad. Its better than not having any tubes to buy.

Greg

[telemoxy]

You seem like a nice guy and I like the balanced approach you take to the subject but New Sensor's behavior is too blatant to ignore. If New Sensor had acquired the rights to the Svetlana name and sold Svetlana tubes there wouldn't be an issue. New Sensor acquired the rights to the Svetlana name and sold another tube. That is a misrepresentation. It is resolved when the misrepresentation ends.

Given your reasoned approach why resort to dramatics like the idea that the tremendous demand for tubes would not be satisfied if New Sensor was unsuccessful at their deception? History has just proven that a demand like this will be satisfied. If China had remained the sole supplier things would have evolved the same way with new tubes coming back into production and quality improving. Why? Because of our buying behavior. That is where the power is not the tube manufacturers and distributors. They are chasing demand created by us.

Frankly I will not be buying Svetlana tubes because I don't like being deceived and they are not as good as Winged C SED. But I will buy the other New Sensor brands when they suit my requirements one of which is reasonably responsible behavior.

And in the event that everyone did this it would have no negative impact on the supply of tubes or their price.

[soundmasterg]

You seem like a nice guy and I like the balanced approach you take to the subject but New Sensor's behavior is too blatant to ignore. If New Sensor had acquired the rights to the Svetlana name and sold Svetlana tubes there wouldn't be an issue. New Sensor acquired the rights to the Svetlana name and sold another tube. That is a misrepresentation. It is resolved when the misrepresentation ends.

I don't necessarily disagree that what NS did with the Svetlana name isn't a bit underhanded, but as I said, its been done before in the tube industry and in many others. The Winged C product is better than the NS Svets, but its not like the NS Svets are totally shoddy or anything...they are better than many of the old Sovteks. Companies like Raytheon used to import Japanese-made tubes and called them Raytheon, without telling everyone that they were different than the good 'ol US tubes they were used to getting. Many of these early Japanese tubes were complete crap and failed. Some people get all up in arms about things like this and say they won't buy any of NS's products, and thats fine, but they end up depriving themselves of some good stuff as a result. Where else are you going to get a new 7868 for example and not pay NOS prices? The new Tung-Sol stuff is some of the best on the market, etc. Personally I haven't gotten any of the NS Svet stuff, and my customers haven't been interested in it either. Most of my customers know that the old Svets are now Winged C and they ask for them if they want them. It hasn't really impacted much of anything. Things like this are part of the price of living in a capitalist society.

Given your reasoned approach why resort to dramatics like the idea that the tremendous demand for tubes would not be satisfied if New Sensor was unsuccessful at their deception? History has just proven that a demand like this will be satisfied. If China had remained the sole supplier things would have evolved the same way with new tubes coming back into production and quality improving. Why? Because of our buying behavior. That is where the power is not the tube manufacturers and distributors. They are chasing demand created by us.

I'm not saying that if NS went down that someone else wouldn't step up to fill the gap. What I am saying is that NS provides many products that many people like and use, including OEMs, and if they went down, there were be a period with huge price increases for tubes beyond what we have now with the low dollar, and whoever took their place would see quality suffer for a time until they got increased production demands under control. Moreoever, since most of the OEM's use NS tubes, you'd see an impact on new amp prices too. For the consumer, the end result would be greatly increased prices and lower quality on the whole, which is not a good thing. Having said all that, the Russian situation with their Expo-Pul factory last year was more of a concern than their Svetlana issue is or has been or will be. I would like to be able to buy quality tubes for the rest of my life, so the health of the industry overall is a concern, and despite some questionable business practices, as long as it is legal, there isn't much that can be done except complain or boycott. I boycott the Svets because no one I know wants them since there are better choices out there, but I don't buy into damning NS as a whole because of something they do with one of their products.

Frankly I will not be buying Svetlana tubes because I don't like being deceived and they are not as good as Winged C SED. But I will buy the other New Sensor brands when they suit my requirements one of which is reasonably responsible behavior.

I don't disagree totally with your approach as I don't like being deceived either. In NS's defense, they didn't come out and say "These are the same as the old Svets." They haven't really said much either way. I'd expect that at some point they will just let the brand go away and try to sell the rights back to the Svetlana factory, but thats just a guess on my part. Maybe Mike Matthews learned from how his EH company was treated in the early 80's by deceptive and illegal union practices regarding his employees at the time that ended up driving him out of business? Anyway, my main point is that it's been done before and to not expect it in an industry such as this is a bit naive.

Greg

[David Schwab]

You seem like a nice guy and I like the balanced approach you take to the subject but New Sensor's behavior is too blatant to ignore. If New Sensor had acquired the rights to the Svetlana name and sold Svetlana tubes there wouldn't be an issue. New Sensor acquired the rights to the Svetlana name and sold another tube. That is a misrepresentation. It is resolved when the misrepresentation ends.

Apparently SED sold the name to New Sensor. Or more correctly, sold the US rights to the name. Since none of us are privy to the details, it's unclear if the intention was for NS to distribute the real Svetlana tubes, but I doubt it considering NS has their own factory they deal with.

NS also owns the names Tung-Sol and Mullard.

But one thing you have to take into consideration, Mike Matthews was instrumental in getting a lot of these Russian, Eastern European, and Chinese tubes into the US market, and as recreations of old tube brands in the early 90's.

This is where the whole "Sovtek" name came from. He had the Big Muff and stuff made in Russia before he had a factory in the US set up again.

The "New Sensor" name came from a wah pedal that had a squishy bag that your stepped on, instead of the usual pedal. That was Matthews' company after EH, and before he got EH going again.

I don't like that he used the Svetlana name, but I don't think he's totally unethical either. Certainly a company like Microsoft has done much worse! Like agreeing to licensing the code for Spyglass Mosaic, and then not paying them because they made Internet Explorer free... so they basically stole the code.

I guess things like this is "business as usual" for some.

[David Schwab]

Maybe Mike Matthews learned from how his EH company was treated in the early 80's by deceptive and illegal union practices regarding his employees at the time that ended up driving him out of business?

That was a horror story! I remember reading that once. I've always liked Matthews, I think he came up with a lot of cool stuff.

[Shea]

My .02:

I put a quad of the New Sensor / Reflektor-made "Svetlana" 6L6s in a Twin Reverb. They sound very similar to a quad of real Svets that I got in the mid or late 90s, before Svetlana lost the right to use the name in the US. But not only do they sound very similar, but they've been much more rugged. The real Svets I that had started making weird noises and became unusable in less than a year. The fake ones, however, have taken a lot of punishment and begged for more. So, in my experience, the fake Svetlanas are a better tube than the real ones. Of course, YMMV - this is just one anecdote.

I agree that it does seem kind of underhanded how Mike Matthews uses the Svetlana name, even if he obtained it fair and square, because it can be misleading to customers. But dadgummit, it's a good tube, and I don't feel ripped off because I knew where it was coming from when I bought it. I have a quad of "Tung Sol reissue" 5881s that are doing right by me too -- they've held up better than all the used / old stock, real Tung Sol 5881s that I've burned through in my home-made tweed Twin clone.

FWIW, the situation with the Svetlana name is a lot like the status of the Budweiser name. The Czech brewery that makes the real Budweiser can't sell it under that name in the US. Of couse that doesn't prove that the practice is morally right, but it shows Mike Matthews didn't invent it, like someone mentioned earlier. There are Dominican cigar makers selling cigars in the US under Cuban brand names too. I assume that's legal in the US, although the Castro brothers might feel differently.

Shea

[soundmasterg]

Apparently SED sold the name to New Sensor. Or more correctly, sold the US rights to the name. Since none of us are privy to the details, it's unclear if the intention was for NS to distribute the real Svetlana tubes, but I doubt it considering NS has their own factory they deal with.

SED was the US distributor for the JSC Svetlana tubes, and SED went bankrupt. When that happened, NS bought the rights for the Svetlana name as SED owned it for the US and Canada markets. If the JSC Svetlana factory was hip with western business practices, they would have got the rights to their name back before that happened, or put a clause in the contract, but they didn't. Now they know better. Mike Matthews being the smart guy that he is saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. If he was making total crap with the name it would be one thing, but he appears to be making a decent tube using that name. Doesn't mean I'll buy it though....I'm pretty happy with the new Tung-Sol stuff and so are my customers.

Greg

[David Schwab]

SED was the US distributor for the JSC Svetlana tubes, and SED went bankrupt. When that happened, NS bought the rights for the Svetlana name as SED owned it for the US and Canada markets.

Right, but who did they buy it from?

I had gotten the info from here (but I don't know how accurate it is):

Svetlana vs Svetlana

...Original Svetlana tubes were marked with a "stylized S" logo and the words "Svetlana Electron Devices."

Both marks were registered with the US Patent and Trademark Office in 1997 by SED, and sold to New Sensor in 2001. For marketing purposes in North America, the name belongs to New Sensor. Despite this, JSC sued New Sensor over the use of the name. In 2003, both parties signed an agreement giving New Sensor the exclusive right to the use of "Svetlana" and giving JSC the exclusive right to use the "winged-C" logo (C being the Cyrillic S).

That makes it sound like SED sold the name to NS, not that NS jumped on it when it became available. The trademark certainly didn't expire in 4 years.

Interestingly... SED is still in business. Is it the same company?

http://www.sed-usa.com/

[Steve Conner]

I'm pretty sure it is the same guys. Their site lists all the ceramic RF power tubes that I remember seeing under the Svetlana brand.

[soundmasterg]

I had heard that SED went bankrupt and NS got the rights during the bankruptcy hearing, but who really knows. Eric Barbour used to work at SED I believe and he left around that time, so if anyone knew, I would bet he would, but whether he would elaborate or not, I have no idea.

Greg

[telemoxy]

No, the SVT II and SVT 1972 use the GE 6550.

opacheco.

Oops! sorry man we kind of hijacked your post. For my part it was not my intention.