Fender Maple vs Rosewood Fingerboards & Tone

[imaradiostar]

Agree with recent statements. If you're in the automotive industry you shouldn't have to throw a rock very far before hitting a NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) engineer. See what they say. My bet is that they say not only that the materials (woods and metals) matter but the shape and way the forces are applied matter as well. I might even go so far as to say that's basic dynamics in any ME curriculum.

jamie

[chrisnation]

I fear you are missing the point. It is true that the characteristics of guitar materials are largely as described in these posts. It is also true that vibrations are transmitted hither and yon through those materials. But the output of an electric guitar is generated solely by the EMF generated by a section of the string vibrating in the pick-up[s] magnetic field. Other parameters, such as the pick-up characteristics, on-board electronic circuitry, and the whole can of worms which is represented by the amplifier MUST be of such dominance to the sound output that characteristics of the material of the neck and body of a solid body guitar are entirely masked - ie irrelevant - if present at all.

As for Chuck H's point about a Les Paul-alike Strat - well, yes. it would! Scott Grove has proved this in a real-life test! Go and check it out for yourself if you doubt me. In his collection [vast - it's his retirement plan] there are Gibson guitars that are dead ringers [pun intended] for Strats and Fenders that emulate the sound of 2 X PAFs.

Acoustic instruments are, by definition, reliant on the interaction between vibrating materials to produce sound. Any inclusion of acoustic instruments in this discussion is entirely redundant.

In the end, I believe that the late great Frank Zappa should have the last word. "Shut Up & Play Yer Guitar"

So I will. I expect others may prefer to pursue this White Rabbit all the way round Wonderland and back, ad nauseam.

On a more proactical matter, anyone got any idea how to lower the string height on a '87 Roadstar 135? I'm a beginner on fettling bridges and stuff.

Agree with recent statements. If you're in the automotive industry you shouldn't have to throw a rock very far before hitting a NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) engineer. See what they say. My bet is that they say not only that the materials (woods and metals) matter but the shape and way the forces are applied matter as well. I might even go so far as to say that's basic dynamics in any ME curriculum.

jamie

[Steve Conner]

OK, so the pickups just sense one small section of the string. But that section is connected to the rest of the string and so to the nut and bridge.

The string vibration can be thought of as a travelling wave that bounces back and forth, reflected at the bridge and nut. Resonances in these parts lead to imperfect reflection, which affects the entire length of the string.

Case in point: Cheap Strat clones have an aluminium trem block, higher-end ones have a steel block. The denser block is a better reflector so it gives more sustain.

Of course to a first approximation, electric guitars all sound the same, but we're being pedantic here.

[Chuck H]

As for Chuck H's point about a Les Paul-alike Strat - well, yes. it would! Scott Grove has proved this in a real-life test! Go and check it out for yourself if you doubt me. In his collection [vast - it's his retirement plan] there are Gibson guitars that are dead ringers [pun intended] for Strats and Fenders that emulate the sound of 2 X PAFs.

Can you post a link? The point is that all other things should be created equal. Same amp, settings, speakers, etc. And the guitar would be modified to have the same scale and pickups. Certainly you can play the same stuff on either instrument and it would sound similar. Just like a rib eye and a t-bone taste similar (Both beef. Both grilled. Both rare. Ergo=taste the same... Not).

Acoustic instruments are, by definition, reliant on the interaction between vibrating materials to produce sound. Any inclusion of acoustic instruments in this discussion is entirely redundant.

I don't know that "redundant" is the correct word. The subject of acoustical vibration creating the sound hasn't been brought up yet. If I had said, like Steve, that the materials an electric guitar is constructed from absorb vibrations from the strings and alter the harmonic content (which is true) that would have been redundant.

In the end, I believe that the late great Frank Zappa should have the last word. "Shut Up & Play Yer Guitar"

So I will. I expect others may prefer to pursue this White Rabbit all the way round Wonderland and back, ad nauseam.

You won't get away that easy. Your the one poking his wang in the snake hole.

On a more proactical matter, anyone got any idea how to lower the string height on a '87 Roadstar 135? I'm a beginner on fettling bridges and stuff.

String height is dependant on a few different things. The big two being neck relief and bridge height. This assuming the neck is not warped, the nut is already close enough and the frets are level and dressed properly. The neck relief is adjusted with the truss rod adjustment nut located in the headstock. For bridge height the big bolts that secure the bridge to the guitar body can be adjusted. The individual saddles should be adjusted with a small allen wrench to match the fingerboard radius. You may need to alter the neck angle and/or the pickup height before the bridge can be properly adjusted. Then re adjust the pickup height when the string height is correct. The actual amount of relief and string height, as well as small allowances for each string that will not always conform to the fingerboard radius, will depend on the type of strings you use, how you tune them and your playing style. For best results I would suggest a book on the subject since I can't cover every variable here. But then you would need to get into all kinds of time relative to your guitar that doesn't involve playing it. Which seems contrary to your Zappa quote. A good shop can probably do the work for less money than the value of the time you could spend learning the subject. Respectfully submitted with and for your consideration.

[David Schwab]

I'm going to go much further out on this 'ere limb that Mark is perched on and say something that will have all the woodists steaming.

On a solid body electric instrument it makes no difference at all what wood, where. There. I've said it.

Clearly, you have never built a guitar. There, I've said it.

Now, wearing my scientist's protective helmet and goggles, for the reason. As Mark Hammer said, the note is terminated by metal at the bridge end and metal on a fret. Let's just stick to fretted notes for now. [If guitar-makers were sensible and used metal nuts, like the splendid Wilkinson, there could be no difference between fretted and open notes but they don't, so the material of nuts may contribute minutely to the vibration characteristics of an open note. Nothing to do with the wood, tho'.

You don't remember brass nuts huh? Or Floyd Rose locking nuts? No one used those. Kramer, Mostite and Danelectro used aluminum nuts. I also use aluminum, but even better, I use a zero fret. Do you know what a zero fret is? That's the solution to open notes and fretted notes sounding the same. And as an added bonus, your lower notes play in tune better.\

Also, real scientist know about resonant frequencies of materials, as well as hardness and modulus of elasticity. Some scientist even studied how wood affects the acoustic output of stringed instruments. Just because a solid body has little acoustic output doesn't mean that the same laws don't apply. They certainly do. If you stick a magnetic pickup on an acoustic guitar it wont sound the same as a solid body electric. Even semi and full hollow bodied electrics sound different from solid bodies. This shows that regardless of having a string sensing magnetic pickup on the guitar, the construction and materials do matter.

Many of us here build guitars, and we have proven this time and time again. You are merely spouting misinformed conjecture. There is no science backing up your claims. magnetic reluctance pickups are just a small part of what makes a solid body sound the way it does. It this were not true, then putting a humbucker on a Strat, would make it sound like a Les Paul. But it doesn't.

So we have a steel wire terminated at both ends by running over metal. The length of the wire sounding the note does not touch wood at any point.

Umm, the bridge does. Vibrations are transferred through the bridge to the body. Both the bridge and body absorb certain frequencies and produce a comb filter. This is why a maple body sounds different from swamp ash. Even bridge material affects the tone. A brass bridge sounds totally different from an aluminum bridge.

Good old Faraday's Left hand Law ensures that the movement of the steel string [the conductor] in the field generated by the magnets in our pick-ups generates EMF [electro-motive force]in the windings of the pick-ups. This is the signal that heads off to our amps and may, depending on our level of talent, be turned into music. The pick-ups don't give a tinker's toss what the wood is. The characteristics of the EMF generated in the pick-up windings is solely dependent on the frequency and amplitude of the vibration of the string in the zone of the magnetic field of the pick-up magnets.

Not exactly correct. The string being a conductor doesn't matter. The string being ferromagnetic matters. The string cares what wood the guitar is made from.

Different woods on a fretboard may feel different under the fingers but once fretted, the metal-to-metal length of the string defines the note. The characteristics of the strings' and pick-ups' materials & construction determine the signal output - nothing else.

Go back to my first statement, you have never built a guitar. And apparently can't hear the difference between a maple fingerboard and rosewood. But we can.

You know why a Les Paul and a Strat sound different? The scale length! You can stick humbuckers on a Strat. Does it sound like a Les Paul? Of course not. And you can stick single coils on a Les Paul and it wont sound like a Strat. On the other hand, a hard ash Strat sounds very different from an alder bodied Strat. Explain why that is.

Or go back to this guitar I posted:



What do you think this sounds like? Korina body, curly oak top. Poplar neck with EI rosewood fingerboard. Do you think it sounds like a regular LP Jr? Guess again.

I'm a beginner on fettling bridges and stuff.

REALLY? You could have fooled us! So with little experience, why do you think you know anything about how guitars work?

Everyone, don't feed the trolls.