Gibson Guitar Plant Raided

[Kazooman]

Interesting story about the Feds raiding Gibson, apparently over documentation of the source of their wood. The story goes on to talk about the impact on other businesses and musicians.

Can you prove that the rosewood fretboard on your guitar came from an authorized source?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html

[JHow]

...Can you prove that the rosewood fretboard on your guitar came from an authorized source?...

My guitars are not high end or antique, but I have no idea of where the wood in them came from, or the exact species.

[big_teee]

My guitars are not high end or antique, but I have no idea of where the wood in them came from, or the exact species.

Same Here.
I have a room full of Cheap Imports, that I put my HandWound P/Us in.
Don't have a clue!
B_T

[Mark Hammer]

My guitars are not high end or antique, but I have no idea of where the wood in them came from, or the exact species.

That's kinda sorta why manufacturers get raided and not your local guitar store.

[Chuck H]

For anyone at this thread who didn't take the time to read the entire article:

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.

That's insane. Who can even read this and think it's reasonable behavior from public servants? Who gave the green light on this? They should be peeled.

I'm not hoity enough to get bent over not being able to travel with my vintage instrument. And I don't need to as a performer. Still, these currently allowable actions are completely unreasonable. Perhaps these wood experts should be accompanied by a qualified historian who can verify whether a particular material is appropriate on an instument, end table, picture frame, etc. Considering the trouble created by these ordinances and the importance of the effort it doesn't seem too far to go. Anyone here ever watch Antiques Road Show? Just have a reasonable qualified individual with good general knowledge of such things on hand and some select expert specialists that can be contacted if needed.

Sure Matthew Trusler's Stradivarius was made in 1711, but certainly it has been worked on since then. I'm sure Matthew needs to travel internationally all the time with this instrument. Does he need to provide documentation verifying the origin of every part of his instrument or lose his $2,000,000.00 violin? And IF he is somehow immune to such stringencies then everyone else should be too.

It's shinnanigins. Offices doing whatever they want to, willy nilly, with no real agenda. Your tax dollars at work. They could have sent an inspector into Gibson quietly and in a conservative manner. A raid on a respected company is the act of an over funded and poorly regulated program with too many operatives and too much budget to squander. This kind of story is a dark commentary on human nature in general. Appearently it's not OK to move a vintage lamp with ivory inlays internationally but it is OK to be an a$$h0!e as long as you have an otherwise well meaning ordinance to site. Someone with the ability to f@#king reason should be policing these actions. Why aren't they?

[Kazooman]

Some further information re Gibson from an news interview I ran across. It seems that the Feds raided Gibson back in 2009 and took a lot of stuff (several dozen officers with guns and vests staged the raid). The main issue was apparently some "partially finished" fretboards that originated from Madagascar. The local laws there prohibit removing unfinished materials from the market stream (or some such legalese). Gibson apparently had documentation from several Madagascarian (is that right???) officials indicating that according to their laws these fretboards could legally be exported. Fast forward to the recent issues. Gibson filed a law suit seeking to recover their materials that they thought were wrongly confiscated. The case is due to reach some sort of milestone soon and WHAM! the Feds swoop in again for another raid. That sort of sounds like either payback or intimidation. The Feds claim that they are simply upholding the Madagascar law. The officials in Madagascar seem to think that no law has been broken. The Feds would apparently prefer that the jobs associated with finishing the fretboards be moved offshore rather than being done here in the states.

Don't they have anything better to worry about?

[Chuck H]

Don't they have anything better to worry about?

No... That's why I said:

It's shinnanigins. Offices doing whatever they want to, willy nilly, with no real agenda. Your tax dollars at work.

They're just poking now. Being nasty to Gibson because they want to and paying no mind to what they're supposed to be doing. Nice job. Glad that office is in place. I'll sleep better knowing those brave men are protecting everyones best interests and not just acting like a bunch of angry fifteen year old boys who got embarrased when when they were caught circle jerking.

[David Schwab]

The reason is that there are embargoes on certain species of wood. If you are going to use Brazilian rosewood for instance, you have to prove that it was harvested before the embargo. Otherwise you can not export the guitar. If you are a big company like Gibson, you have to have your paperwork in order. If they were raided, it's because it was felt that they were up to shinnanigins. Knowing what I know about Gibson, I wouldn't doubt it for a minute.

Even if you are a small time builder, the lumber merchant you buy from knows where the wood is from. That's because they don't want to get fined or shut down.

Welcome to CITES

Restricted and Endangered Wood Species | The Wood Database

This is all because of over harvesting.

[Chuck H]

Thank you for the very relevant links David. I think you may be right. But isn't it telling that Gibson was raided again after they filed a counter suit? And who is this doing the raiding??? AFAICT it's the Memphis Dept. of Fish and Wildlife?!?!? Really? I'm not saying that certain species of tree don't need protection. Or even that Gibson isn't up to something. What I AM saying is that there is more going on here than the enforcement of any ordinance and it has to do with agendas outside of the cause... And we're paying for it.

[Kazooman]

I am more into woodworking that electronics so I am familiar with the embargo issues. I purchase exotic woods from several area suppliers as well as on the Internet. All of the suppliers claim that all their paperwork is in order. The problem is that I have no way to link the wood I use in a specific piece back to this documentation. I made this blanket chest out of purpleheart, claro walnut, and tropical walnut as a wedding present for my niece. I drove from Michigan through Canada to New York to deliver it. While none of these woods is listed on the chart in David's links, I doubt that some overzealous US customs agent could tell the difference. Based on some of the stories in the original news article I guess I was lucky not to have the chest confiscated and having to launch a legal battle to recover it.

[David Schwab]

Thank you for the very relevant links David. I think you may be right. But isn't it telling that Gibson was raided again after they filed a counter suit? And who is this doing the raiding??? AFAICT it's the Memphis Dept. of Fish and Wildlife?!?!? Really? I'm not saying that certain species of tree don't need protection. Or even that Gibson isn't up to something. What I AM saying is that there is more going on here than the enforcement of any ordinance and it has to do with agendas outside of the cause... And we're paying for it.

I think Henry just pissed off the wrong people. I've heard some stories about him.

[J M Fahey]

I think Henry just pissed off the wrong people. I've heard some stories about him.

Knowing some of his story I tend to agree with you.
But what pisses me off A LOT is that a State Police agency can be used to solve private problems.
Even if he pissed off some bureaucreat somewhere, it certainly was no one at the "Wood Protection Police" or whatever it's called.
Police forces are not private armies acting on the personal whims of anybody.

At least, not outside Banana Republics.

[head_spaz]

political!

This raid was political... no doubt personally instigated by Uncle Sam himself.
It is worthy to note that Tennessee is a "Right To Work State"... which means employers retain the right to run their businesses without union interference.
Also, the CEO is a Republican, and was on record for donating to the GOP.
Look at Obama's track record with the Union thugs, and his anti-american business policies. and it's not hard to see his heavy hand in this raid.
And there goes anoither 1,000 jobs down the drain... in the name of ecology and political correctness.
All Heil Great Seizer!

[Mark Hammer]

People who work in public sector regulatory and enforcement bodies tend to NOT adopt a soft or loose approach to things. There are a few reasons for this. One is that such bodies tend to select for, and hire, people with that attitude. The other is that the regulations, policies, statutes that they have to enforce are NOT within their purview to alter or interpret. And, as I noted in an earlier post, many are bound up in having to comply with a whole wad of things one wouldn't have thought are connected. Laws, treaties, policies are supposed to line up with each other, but many times they don't.

So, whether they are ticketing your car for being in a no parking zone for 5min, giving you a hard time about having more than 75ml of something on a flight, insisting on a passport, telling you you cannot register for fall courses because you don't have form XYZ, telling you the single rat turd in the corner that could have come in from outside on someone's shoe will require your restaurant to be closed for 72 hrs, or whatever, they are going to be inflexible hardasses about it because they are hired to be hardasses and instructed to be that way when carrying out their job.

The incomprehensibility of their attitude and the regulations/policies they are enforcing, and the way they are doing it, may mystify many and lead them to presume, or be sympathetic to, conspiratorial interpretations. But deep down, the same way your mom says "Brush your teeth and go to bed!" for reasons that make absolutely no sense to you, that's what they're doing.

I work on government employee surveys, and have to read through all the comments submitted so that they remain anonymous. Recently, employees in one regulatory/enforcement organization seemed to me to be particularly bitter and angry. As it happened, a guy I had previously worked with in another context now heads up HR in that organization. We were chatting one day, so I asked him about it, and his reply was that many of the folks in those jobs are hired because they are such hardheads. Do they necessarily understand what they are enforcing? No. What they know is that they get instructions to make it happen, and have no authority to do it with an eye towards "the big picture".

"The big picture" that generated the laws, policies, treaties, and actions may well be obsolete, self-defeating, or ill-conceived. People still have to follow them if that's what their job is.

I listened to a local news item yesterday concerning the lack of electrician apprenticeships in our region. A guy actioning to improve things noted that this had arisen because of an existing statute that required a ratio of 3 licensed electricians to be on site for each apprentice. I suppose it made sense back when it was instituted. Folks figured it'd be good for the apprentice. But now the trade is short of qualified people and can't generate more because they can't apprentice folks unless they meet the 3:1 ratio. But how you gonna do that if you're short of qualified people?

Don't expect policies and regulations to always make sense. That's why we have politicians: to change policies when it seems like the existing ones are not working for anyone.

[cminor9]

This raid was political... no doubt personally instigated by Uncle SamBO himself.
It is worthy to note that Tennessee is a "Right To Work State"... which means employers retain the right to run their businesses without union interference.
Also, the CEO is a Republican, and was on record for donating to the GOP.
Look at Obama's track record with the Union thugs, and his anti-american business policies. and it's not hard to see his heavy hand in this raid.
And there goes anoither 1,000 jobs down the drain... in the name of ecology and political correctness.
All Heil Great Seizer!

This raid was political... no doubt personally instigated by Uncle SamBO himself.

Uncle SamBO

SamBO

Wait... did you really just do that? What is the matter with you?