Gibson Guitar Plant Raided

[Chuck H]

Yeah... Not the most graceful move I've seen. On a funnier note...

When I was a boy the local flea market use to have some vendors of really cheap knockoff toys made overseas. One guy was selling Rambo action figure knockoffs. There was a white one titles Mambo and a black one titled... You guessed it. What makes it funny for me is that it absolutely was accidental. I should have bought all of them.

[David Schwab]

Wait... did you really just do that? What is the matter with you?

Doesn't his screen name answer that question?

[R.G.]

That's why we have politicians: to change policies when it seems like the existing ones are not working for anyone.

That's why *we* think we should have politicians. What happens in fact is that people who can use the authority vested in political office to further their own agendas have discovered ways to get into these offices. Over time, a large amount of knowledge base to get people willing to do fairly debasing and disgusting work to get there has accumulated. There is a political industry. In the USA at least, the maneuvering for position in the next election starts when the votes are tallied and the winner announced in this election.

The guys who wrote the USA Constitution had it right; the only way to prevent despots from arising is to trade them out after a few years in office to prevent ongoing concentrations of power. It took a while to figure ways around this.

Sadly, the real primary objective of a government functionary is to further the conditions which got them there and may keep them there. Every other consideration is secondary.

[big_teee]

Here's a real good audio file run down of what has happened at gibson.
Audio is not real good but the content is good.
Podcast 41: CITES, the Lacey Act and the Gibson Guitars Raid | The Fretboard Journal: Keepsake magazine for guitar collectors
B_T

[gavin_rossdale]

I dunno. Taylor, Music Man, Martin, PRS and a hundred small guitar makers are producing quality stuff which we use in our guitar class without having to resort to breaking the law..

[David Schwab]

Gibson keeps talking about the wood they buy from India as being legal, but the real reason for the raid is that the U.S. Justice Department filed a court motion in June that says that Gibson smuggled contraband ebony from Madagascar.

Martin was getting wood from Madagascar until the coup that happened there.

Chris Martin, Chairman and CEO of the C.F. Martin Guitar Co. in Nazareth, Pa., says that when he first heard guitars built from Madagascar rosewood, he dreamed it might be the long-sought substitute for Brazilian rosewood, whose trade was banned in the 1990s due to over-harvest. Then the situation in Madagascar changed.

"There was a coup," Martin says. "What we heard was the international community has come to the conclusion that the coup created an illegitimate government. That's when we said, 'Okay, we can not buy any more of this wood.'"

And while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."

[guitarkinder]

Why the guns?

Why did the raid have guns and body armor etc? We are becoming more of a police state everyday. NOTHING SCARES ME WORSE THAN A COP TRYING TO GET ALL MILITARY ACTING.They could have accomplished their mission without all the drama.Of course everyone knows luthiers and woodworkers are a evil and psycotic lot.

[Chuck H]

Of course everyone knows luthiers and woodworkers are a evil and psycotic lot.

Trying to take over the world with mind control.

[J M Fahey]

.They could have accomplished their mission without all the drama.

Ah !! but it was not to scare them !!
It was all made to scare *us* (by us I mean everybody else).
What in the old British Empire even had a name:
"a crack of the whip at the natives"
meaning:
"do not even DREAM of disobeying us"

[David Schwab]

Why did the raid have guns and body armor etc?

Did they? How do you know?

We are becoming more of a police state everyday.

Yeah, well thanks George W for signing the Patriot Act. They can detain you for any reason they see fit. Now Obama made it worse.

Makes you wonder who's really calling the shots? Not the presidents.

[J M Fahey]

Makes you wonder who's really calling the shots? Not the presidents.

Definitely.
The only two that were quite independent were FDR, who could be so because the Economy was shattered and the situation was desperate, so so he was seen as a necessary evil and left free to do his thing (successfully) and JFK.
We know how he ended.
Personal opinion, others may very well disagree.
If somebody wants to move this to the Lobby, so be it.

[Brad1]

The only two that were quite independent were FDR, who could be so because the Economy was shattered and the situation was desperate, so so he was seen as a necessary evil and left free to do his thing

And that is why Obama refuses to let anything get better, and is trying desperately to make things worse. Wilson outlined the plan about 100 years ago, FDR saw the opportunity to get the ball rolling, LBJ gave it another push, and Obama is trying to finish the job to end America and shred the Constitution. We've had enough of them trying to FORCE more of us onto the government teat. Maybe Obama and his henchmen just figures "Well...we'll see how THEY all like living on government assistance. Maybe it'll change their attitudes, and they'll become liberal Democrats to help squash the evil capitalist system!! Let's make them ALL hate the '1%'!" (Even though they pay most of the tax revenues that the greedy 99'ers...most of whom pay very little, or no, federal income taxes...want to use up for themselves, in exchange for...uh...ummm... well....not for working for it. No...uh...because...ummm...OH! Because they are ENTITLED to have part of what others have earned! Yeah..THAT'S it!)

Anyway...not that Bam-Bam didn't have help from Bush, who should have known better than to act like a Progressive far-left Democrat by not editing the Patriot Act, and, also, spending with abandon. It's just too bad that bad intelligence from the Clinton administration (he was too busy under his desk to pay attention to what was on it...(but Newt is a cad..right?)) allowed for the 9-11 attacks mere months after Bush took office, and apparently bad intel that Bush inherited led to Iraq. Too bad the Dems believed all that, and voted for that, also. If they hadn't, Bush would have to take all the blame...not that the Dems aren't trying to LAY all the blame on Bush...despite their voting record on the subject. (White House instructions to mainstream media official propaganda outlets..."Ssshhhh...do NOT mention that! ALWAYS blame the Republicans, even when it's easily proven false. Most people who watch us won't bother to check facts. That's our advantage!)

Sometimes, though, I DO wonder if both parties are in cahoots, and yucking it up with drunken back-slapping in some smoky DC backroom about the "suckers" that hired them (the citizens).

Clowns to the left of me...jokers to the right.

Enough about that. See...you shouldn't have brought up FDR and Obama, the Patriot Act, etc., JM! (Just like arrogant Obama, who has never taken responsibility for ANYTHING or admitted he may be wrong, or John King...I take no responsibility for furthering this.) It's all your fault, JM!

Brad1

(PS. Keep givin'em hell, Newt. Those CNN and MSNBC morons are sweating bullets...and can't really say TOO much about it without admitting it's all about themselves! Just remember, if you get in there...you'd better not be just talking, and then turn around and make things even worse. We've had more than enough of that...especially during the past three years.)

[bluzmn]

@Brad1-
Are YOU one of the !%? If not, what the hell are they doing for you that you should stand up for them? Maybe they pay most of the taxes, but they are not paying their fair share. For the life of me, I can't understand why someone who is not rich would be a Republican; the GOP is of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich.

[big_teee]

And that is why Obama refuses to let anything get better, and is trying desperately to make things worse. Wilson outlined the plan about 100 years ago, FDR saw the opportunity to get the ball rolling, LBJ gave it another push, and Obama is trying to finish the job to end America and shred the Constitution. We've had enough of them trying to FORCE more of us onto the government teat. Maybe Obama and his henchmen just figures "Well...we'll see how THEY all like living on government assistance. Maybe it'll change their attitudes, and they'll become liberal Democrats to help squash the evil capitalist system!! Let's make them ALL hate the '1%'!" (Even though they pay most of the tax revenues that the greedy 99'ers...most of whom pay very little, or no, federal income taxes...want to use up for themselves, in exchange for...uh...ummm... well....not for working for it. No...uh...because...ummm...OH! Because they are ENTITLED to have part of what others have earned! Yeah..THAT'S it!)

Anyway...not that Bam-Bam didn't have help from Bush, who should have known better than to act like a Progressive far-left Democrat by not editing the Patriot Act, and, also, spending with abandon. It's just too bad that bad intelligence from the Clinton administration (he was too busy under his desk to pay attention to what was on it...(but Newt is a cad..right?)) allowed for the 9-11 attacks mere months after Bush took office, and apparently bad intel that Bush inherited led to Iraq. Too bad the Dems believed all that, and voted for that, also. If they hadn't, Bush would have to take all the blame...not that the Dems aren't trying to LAY all the blame on Bush...despite their voting record on the subject. (White House instructions to mainstream media official propaganda outlets..."Ssshhhh...do NOT mention that! ALWAYS blame the Republicans, even when it's easily proven false. Most people who watch us won't bother to check facts. That's our advantage!)
Sometimes, though, I DO wonder if both parties are in cahoots, and yucking it up with drunken back-slapping in some smoky DC backroom about the "suckers" that hired them (the citizens).

Clowns to the left of me...jokers to the right.

Enough about that. See...you shouldn't have brought up FDR and Obama, the Patriot Act, etc., JM! (Just like arrogant Obama, who has never taken responsibility for ANYTHING or admitted he may be wrong, or John King...I take no responsibility for furthering this.) It's all your fault, JM!

Brad1

(PS. Keep givin'em hell, Newt. Those CNN and MSNBC morons are sweating bullets...and can't really say TOO much about it without admitting it's all about themselves! Just remember, if you get in there...you'd better not be just talking, and then turn around and make things even worse. We've had more than enough of that...especially during the past three years.)

And, Tell me Again What to hell any of this has to do with Gibson and their Woes?
You guys and your politics.
What I think is amusing and Ironic, is you guys get on here, and act like your going to change someone elses Mind, & Views.
All you accomplish is getting your own Blood pressure up.
Peace,
B_T

[Chuck H]

And, Tell me Again What to hell any of this has to do with Gibson and their Woes?
You guys and your politics.
What I think is amusing and Ironic, is you guys get on here, and act like your going to change someone elses Mind, & Views.
All you accomplish is getting your own Blood pressure up.
Peace,
B_T

It matters BT. If points are raised that make voting people think then it matters. If Gibson being raided in such a manor is something you can lay down for then it doesn't matter to you. But where does it end? What about the guy who loses a family hierloom rosewood desk at the border crossing??? What about the guy who loses his pre war Martin acoustic??? What about the tax dollars being spent to police this sort of frivolity??? And lastly, what about the loss of basic freedoms??? If we allow this sort of thing it's the same as endorsing it. And, IMHE, with policies like this if we ignore it we allow it. If we allow it we allow the continued degradation of our freedoms and they continue to slowly decompose. So it's all relative. "I" may not be the one to make a difference but it's important to be aware. The day may come when someone who can make difference manages to get this policy on the chopping block or at least makes a move to refine the policy into something more useful. I'd like to know how it affects me and which way to vote.