Dry Wood? Lacquer or Polyurethane Paint?

[tbryanh]

How many years does it take for the wood in a guitar to become dry?

Also, does Gibson use lacquer or polyurethane paint?

Apparently new guitars are made out of green wood.
Apparently green wood is flexible which causes the guitar to come out of tune?

Apparently polyurethane paint seals so well, the wood never dries and the guitar never stays in tune.

Apparently lacquer lets the wood breath and dry out.
Apparently when the wood is dry, it does not flex much and the guitar stays in tune.

[Rob Mercure]

Apparently new guitars are made out of green wood. You might want to qualify your source for this statement - while I won't comment on instruments made in other countries USA manufacturers invest heavily in both air drying and in kilns. Martin thoroughly dries their woods and purchases wood in log form to insure both best usage of the sawn timber and control of drying. No manufacturer wishes their instrument to warp and all instrument finishes are designed to impede the flow of moisture to both prevent absorption of excess air moisture and to prevent the instrument from drying out and falling apart - excessive drying during the winter heating season is usually a greater problem than too much moisture. Poly finishes are probably much more moisture resistant but, again, that is one of the primary purposes of any finish - but polyurethane is a "lacquer" unless your definition of "lacquer" is finishes derived from the dissolved shell of the lac scale insect and then you are talking about shellac thus excluding nitro cellulose and other traditional "lacquers."

Rob

[tbryanh]

Here is my source. I may be reading too much into this. Thanks for the comments. Please continue.

http://www.joetheguitarman.com/facto...en_choosin.htm

"How the wood is finished is a HUGE factor. In the old days guitars were finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. A long and hazardous process. Multiple coats needed long drying times. Then they invented poly urethane. A water based finish that would dry in less than one hour! Space age finish that would never crack like a nitro finish. It also never breathes and the wood never ages and develops character."

"I think another big factor is age of the guitar. New guitars are not stable. The wood still moves. Twenty year old guitars have stabilized. They sound better, much easier to tune, and stay in tune longer. All the locking tuners, nuts, blocked bridges in the world will not help green wood stay in tune."

[Sweetfinger]

"How the wood is finished is a HUGE factor. In the old days guitars were finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. A long and hazardous process. Multiple coats needed long drying times. Then they invented poly urethane. A water based finish that would dry in less than one hour! Space age finish that would never crack like a nitro finish. It also never breathes and the wood never ages and develops character."

"I think another big factor is age of the guitar. New guitars are not stable. The wood still moves. Twenty year old guitars have stabilized. They sound better, much easier to tune, and stay in tune longer. All the locking tuners, nuts, blocked bridges in the world will not help green wood stay in tune."

That's a very incomplete, shortened, and misleading timeline for the history of guitar finishing. Kind of like saying early man had learned to farm crops instead of being simply hunter-gatherers, then they opened Burger Kings, where the meat tasted different.

Most of the myths about the "old" lacquer being better than the "space age" finishes are misunderstandings of what is actually occurring. The finishes applied on most lower end instruments these days(under $1,000.) is very thick because it is easier to crank out the product. If you sprayed a vintage guitar with nitro lacquer until you got a final finish thickness similar to the thicknesses on an inexpensive Korean or Indonesian instrument, 2 or 3 millimeters, it would sound just dead as the next $99 cheepo at the local big box store. Conversely, if you take a new thickly finished guitar and strip it, and spray it with a THIN coat of water based poly, oil based poly, polyester, 2 part auto finish, super glue, whatever -- it WILL sound more lively. Also note that I've seen many "spage age" finishes check and crack with age, and much of the nitro lacquer formulas used in the last twenty years seem to have more plasticizers and do not seem to check as easily.

Wood NEVER dries out. It is hygroscopic and will absorb moisture from the air.

New guitars are NOT more likely to go out of tune than old ones, nor are they "easier" to tune. Older guitars are more likely to have been setup and had maintenance done to them over the years which DOES increase their ease of play, feel, and tuning stability. New guitars do settle in, but not at any rate that would affect tuning, unless you only pull out your guitar three times a year.

Twenty year old guitars don't necessarily "sound better" than new ones. There are many, many old guitars that sound absolutely horrible. An awful sounding guitar will always sound awful. It is certainly true that as instruments age there are subtle yet noticeable improvements in tone. This effect is poorly understood but is generally attributed to a combination of two things. One is a general hardening of the resins contained within the wood as well as within whatever finish is on the instrument. The second is a realignment of the wood on an almost molecular level as the instrument is played. Here is an article that focuses more on acoustics:

http://www.acousticguitar.com/gear/a...ibration.shtml

As I stated before, however, a new guitar that sounds great will get better, but a crappy sounding guitar will get only slightly less crappy, and to realize the instruments full potential, it must not just be aged, but as the article states, the guitar must also be PLAYED.

Here's my fave analogy of how a lot of misunderstandings about guitars(and other things) get their start:

A man was testing how frogs jump. He put a frog in the middle of a table and yelled "JUMP!" The frog jumped two feet. He cut off one of the frog's legs and placed him back in the middle of the table. "JUMP!" -the frog jumped 10 inches. The man noted this. He cut off a second leg and repeated the process. The man yelled "JUMP!" the frog jumped 3 inches and noted this also. The man cut off a third leg and this time the frog jumped 2 inches. Noted. The man cut off the fourth leg and placed the frog back in the center of the table. "JUMP!" nothing. The man yelled again, "JUMP". Still the frog did not move. "JUMP!" - still no movement. In his notebook the man wrote "It is clear that a frog with no legs is deaf".

It never ceases to amaze me how people can draw completely wrong conclusions from their observations. For example: guitarists will almost ALWAYS blame tuning problems on their 'crappy' tuners or slipping gears. They never seem to consider any other factors. From my experiences, faulty machine heads are the LAST thing I check for when a customer complains of guitars 'giong out of tune'.

Just get a guitar that feels and sounds good. Don't worry about when or where it was made, or what it is made of.

[tbryanh]

Thanks

[Satamax]

That guy is talking out of his ass!

http://www.joetheguitarman.com/facto...en_choosin.htm

The first think i check when i hear someone complaining about tuning probs, the way he puts the strings on the posts!

[tbryanh]

So what I think I am learning here is that you want a thin finish that allows the guitar body to vibrate. Is that correct?

It appears that the Gibson Les Paul Special, even though priced under $1000, has a thin finish. What do you think?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/docum...91833&g=guitar
"The finish is worn in places of high contact-in the cutaway, where the right forearm rests, around the knobs, and on the back. At the Gibson shop, they accomplish this effect by shooting on the color, rubbing it hard in specific places, then sealing it with a satin nitrocellulose lacquer finish."

[Rob Mercure]

During my undergrad days I took two semesters of "commercial law" - almost a "must" if one is to be in any sort of business or ever have any sort of contractual arrangement in this world (like having a bank account or a credit card). In any buy/sell arrangement the seller is obligated to essentially tell the truth about a product but is allowed a bit of leeway for what is legally referred to as "puffery" - that is, to be able to build up, "puff" up his/her product with out openly telling a mistruth about the product. Essentially this is what is going on with the described.

Unless you're using an e-bow or feedback from an amp all the energy the "string system" of a guitar has is what you impart when you pick/pluck/slam the string - and that energy has to satisfy whatever expectations of the system you have. For an acoustic guitar this energy has to couple sufficiently with the top ("table") to cause it to vibrate heavily enough to drive air molecules to enable you to hear it. Generally you want as much string/top coupling as possible. A solid body electric is generally the opposite 'cuz you expect the SB to provide "sustain." That is, the overall instrument is rigid and "resists" coupling of the string energy into the body - thus the string can continue to vibrate longer. While there is obviously some transfer of energy to the body and the body does resonate and this/these resonance(s) affect the resultant sonic signature this is minor compared to an acoustic instrument and while a softer finish will damp some body resonance it is a lesser factor after any energy loss in poor coupling through joints and various machines, body wood that damps the signal, and player's technique that may damp the signal. The long and the short of it is in a solid body one who had "mastered" the instrument may be affected by the finish but until that mastery everything else is much more important!

With that said and done thick poly finishes look shabby and will react to some plastics/chemicals leaving marks that look like thick patches of snot - a poorly applied one can also feel funky and sticky on the neck. So I think the issue is more of aesthetics and practical playing concerns.

Rob

[David Schwab]

How many years does it take for the wood in a guitar to become dry?

A few months to a year... but.. all wood used for commercial wood working, including guitar making is dried in a kiln... so it's as dry as it needs to be.

Also, does Gibson use lacquer or polyurethane paint?

I believe they use nitro lacquer, but they might use acrylic. There's nothing wrong with polyurethane as a finish. Polyester is the bad stuff.

Apparently new guitars are made out of green wood.
Apparently green wood is flexible which causes the guitar to come out of tune?

That's absolute nonsense. You can't glue green wood! No one uses green wood. And ALL wood is flexible. That's why the neck has a truss rod.

Most of the problems with guitars going out of tune are with the player not putting the strings on correctly, and the guitar is not set up well.

Apparently polyurethane paint seals so well, the wood never dries and the guitar never stays in tune.

Nope. Go buy a $6,000 Alembic bass. They finish with poly and they stay in tune!

Apparently lacquer lets the wood breath and dry out.
Apparently when the wood is dry, it does not flex much and the guitar stays in tune.

Ok, you are not seeing that if the finish lets the moisture out, why wouldn't it let moisture in again?

Wood is never totally dry. It maintains an equilibrium based on the climate its in.

In humid weather your guitar will absorb moisture, and in the dry winter it will lose it.

The wood expands and shrinks depending on the amount of moisture it has in it. Quarter sawn wood moves less during climate changes than flat sawn wood, yet Fender uses flat sawn maple for all their necks. Unstable wood, or poor design and construction are more of a problem than the finish.

Acoustic guitars are finished on the outside, but not the inside. This can unbalance the wood. Some makers also apply finish on the inside surfaces.

If you apply a film finish like lacquer on one side of a thin piece of wood, it will warp as the other side absorbs moisture. One purpose for having a finish is to keep the moisture OUT!

This is why you see guitars with the fret ends sticking out the side of the fingerboard. It was fine when they made it, and the wood has since contracted and of course the frets didn't.

[David Schwab]

"How the wood is finished is a HUGE factor. In the old days guitars were finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. A long and hazardous process. Multiple coats needed long drying times. Then they invented poly urethane. A water based finish that would dry in less than one hour! Space age finish that would never crack like a nitro finish. It also never breathes and the wood never ages and develops character."

That's the funniest thing I ever read! Nitro is not a long and hazardous process to apply. You spray it on, sand between every so many coats, and spray some more. The exact same as applying polyurethane. They are both film finishes that take time to cure.

Nitro is very flammable and can be explosive, but you have to spray these finishes in a spray booth anyway. Because of the environmental impact of the solvents used, some makers have switched to other finishes because of local laws, like in California.

Finish does not effect the tone of the guitar at all. Not a solid body. If you think it does, then you need to build some and try different finishes.

"I think another big factor is age of the guitar. New guitars are not stable. The wood still moves. Twenty year old guitars have stabilized. They sound better, much easier to tune, and stay in tune longer. All the locking tuners, nuts, blocked bridges in the world will not help green wood stay in tune."

A 20 year old guitar might be slightly dryer than a new guitar, but not be any amount that will matter.

Old guitars have been played a lot. The constant vibrations frees up the wood to move in certain ways, and that improves the tone.

When I first build an instrument, especially basses, they sound a lot tighter new, and loosen up after a year or so. Even a few days or weeks, and you can hear it warm up.

This guy is just making up stuff he thinks is going on.

[Brock Little]

"Finish does not effect the tone of the guitar at all. Not a solid body." ?

I'd hate to assume that this quote is absolute, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, David.

Have you never strung up and played an unfinished solid body? The sheer difference in volume alone should convince you that finish makes a difference. The type of finish, and how it goes on/in to the grain Will make an audible difference.
Take PRS for an example. Yeah, they can be damn pretty, but the sheer volume of the finish totally kills the sound. If I wanted to be a poser and have something pretty to hang on the wall, I'd buy a PRS, but they sound muffled and dull. Like someone trying to scream with a plastic bag over their head. Anyone who tells you PRS are about tone is a victim of marketing hype.

Finish does effect tone.

[David Schwab]

Have you never strung up and played an unfinished solid body? The sheer difference in volume alone should convince you that finish makes a difference. The type of finish, and how it goes on/in to the grain Will make an audible difference.

Yes I have, many times. My finished guitars sound the same as unfinished. My solid body instruments are very loud unplugged, and that's because of my neck design. The neck makes more of a difference in tone than the body. I string up many of the instruments I make before they have finish on them. Some never even get finish sprayed on them. Then a year later I might spray lacquer on them. I've also refinished instruments after a while. They sound the same. But I'm not using a thick 2 part polyester finish either.

I've never heard large volume differences between finished and unfinished solid bodies. When I was at American Showster, I even listened to the guitars with no aluminum parts attached. That sounded different. I had a bare wood, bare wood and aluminum, and a finished guitar side by side.

They each sounded a little different, but so do any two identical guitars.

Now here's another question to ponder. What's the difference in tone, if any, between a thin film finish, like lacquer, and an oil finish? In this case the oil finish might sound slightly darker, because it absorbs in the wood... but the difference is hardly noticeable.

But think about how thin sprayed on finishes are. How could that prevent a solid body from vibrating? It can't, anymore than it does on an acoustic guitar, where the body is more flexible. The finish is VERY flexible, more so than the larger mass of the solid body.

Here's an analogy. Take a snare drum. First spray lacquer on the head and let it cure. It won't sound too different. Some heads already have a finish sprayed on. Now take a thin wood veneer and glue it to the head. Now how does it sound? Pretty dead. So which material is more flexible, wood, or finish?

The impedance of the body far outweighs the impedance of the finish. A thin coating of finish is not going to change the vibrations of the much larger stiffer body.

[Steve Conner]

Well I have a McCarty and I think it sounds rather nice in spite of its thick poly finish. I've owned it for several years now and haven't turned into a lawyer or dentist yet

The only unusual thing about it is that some open string harmonics are very quiet. I blame that on the pickup placement or PRS's weird tailpiece design, though.

[Brock Little]

As far as finish goes, it seems there's going to be opinions. A thick finish WILL kill the sound of an acoustic, and solid body instruments do have acoustic properties that can be choked in a similar way.
It seems like it's a matter of, Pick a side of the fence, and we can begin throwing stones at each other.
As for using uncured timber to make guitars. Yeah, you can't glue it or finish it. You'd struggle to make sh1t stick to wet timber. Cheap guitars that sound crappy are usually the sum of their parts minus the cost of production. Simple stuff.

[tbryanh]

Vibrations on surface or inside?

If the vibrations on a guitar body are mostly on the surface, then the finish would be crucial.

If the vibrations are inside the body too as much as they are on the surface, then the finish would be less crucial.

Copper wire conducts current on the surface. No current flows inside the wire.

For a given gauge, stranded wire conducts better than solid wire. This is because stranded wire has more surface area than solid wire.

High end speaker wire has the finest strands. This is not done to make the wire more flexible. It is done to give the most surface area.

My guess is that vibration travel mostly if not completely on the surface of the guitar and that finish is crucial.