Nut angle/ sustain.

[Sea Chief]

My SG is drivin me barkin bonkers. Faded 08, nice neck & I like the feel of the overall build quality.. but surprisingly it doesnt sustain like the SGs I used to know in 80s (top 3 strings go sharp so often its maddening/ a Q for tmrw tho). I have a hunch one reason is the wood is too dense (my theory/ it seems a heavyish SG): but my Q here is on the nut.

Ive seen a superb thouragh gtr tech chap's YTube clip of replacing a Corian nut, which gibson used as stock from ~2007 on apparantly, with a bone nut. Christ the work removing it!! another clip shows some other chap just score/ tap/ clean slot/ out in 15m. Main reason changing these post 07 gibsons he says, is the bad angle of the nut rearside (slope back to string posts): too steep so string rests only on a small ~2mm/ front edge of the nut, the rest a gap, IE not the whole nut width.. resulting in ott vibration 'spill' continuing back past the nut. Now, a graphtech nut I put in a charidy-shop squier strat, orig placcy nut awol, indeed has a shallower angle & the strings are supported across the full width of the nut.. & it really sings & the sustain is better than the SG. Now, whether this is a result of the nut Im not sure but makes me wonder how important a nut which supports this string bit/ if the tech guy was indeed spot-on.

My other 2 gtrs all sustain better too: embarrassingly even my £10 romanian 3/4 size I saw in a dusty gtr shop corner (knew it was mine on 1st look from 30yrs experience: a peach) & my takamine chinese ply-top acoustic nuts' angles both mirror ~accurately their strings' back angle to posts. Considering too the SG has a set-neck, US made from a most respected maker, & 4x the price of the acoustic, its rather alarming.

So Im wondering about this nut angle in relation to sustain. And any other reason my SG might be so unsustainy. And anyone removed a gibson SG faded corian nut?

Thanks SC.

[olddawg]

Chief... I've decided I don't care much for bone nuts. I just had my favorite Strat's fretboard planed and refretted by a very reputable luthier. ($400) I've owned and played this Strat since 1986. Excellent job, but the original plastic/graphite composite nut was ruined by heat in the process. He replaced it with bone thinking it was an improvement. I couldn't get my trem stable after that and even had a thread here about it. What I finally did was take a Jeweler's file and widen the peg side of the nut slots as well angle it down a bit. (I know you aren't SUPPOSED to use jeweler's files on nuts) That and a lot of #2 pencil lead resolved most of my issue. On an SG, a dense material like bone should not cause sustain problems. It should increase sustain. That's why some people use brass, etc. But, if it is cut wrong it can mute the strings. It needs to be cut angled lower at the peg side. You also want to lock/anchor your strings correctly (you would be surprised how many gigging guitarists don't really know how to change their strings) and you want 3 to 5 turns coiled down and stretched in. A little # 2 pencil lead won't hurt even on an SG and you want a sharp, even cut off on the bridge side of the nut with the slot cut slightly lower and wider at the peg side. Most off the shelf guitars are set up for 9 sets. If you use 10s or 11s the nut will need some attention. Also, almost every manufacturer has had a very crapy nut dress straight from the factory most of the time for at least a decade IMHO. Even Gibson.

[guitician]

The break angle, as it is called, gives the string a downward force pressing the string against the nut/bridge. The light gauge strings really need this to have sustain and how the nut is cut will definitely effect sustain. I always look very closely at the point the sting makes contact with the nut from the bridge side. I'll use a magnifier to see that were the string is vibrating from is right at the very edge of the nut. If I move the string and see any movement of the string past that leading edge, the nut needs work. I replaced my stock R7 nut with a nylon one that I made and it works great.

[Chuck H]

I just want to iterate that speculation about nut angle is all well and good regarding open strings. Once a string is fretted I don't imagine the nut angle makes as much difference as a squirt of piss on a house fire. With your finger pressed down on the string there's not much likelihood of any significant vibration transfer. So everything behind your finger becomes moot. Including the nut angle.

Otherwise... Absolutely obsess about it for open strings. And I'm not being sarcastic. I do think it matters. For open strings. But... Contrary to the YT vid you mentioned, the tighter the angle the higher the vibration transfer!!! So shallowing the angle can only serve to reduce sustain!?! Even if the tring is "floating" in the slot behind too steep an angle, how much vibration transfer could be lost by the string length between the peg head and the angle stop of the nut if the string is damped by the slot sides!?! Really? Sorry, but I think function is WAYYY more important than whatever small sustain issues might arise from nut geometry. Unless your nut is made of rubber there simply isn't enough of a sustain issue there to focus all your angst. I know you would like an answer to all your troubles with this guitar, but it isn't the nut.

Chrome plated pot metal tails and bridges (like Gibson has used on many guitars), loose bridge parts, sloppy glue joints and, most importantly, the particulars of the build woods resonances for the body, neck and how they interact COMBINED WITH how this interacts with the amplifier at the volume and EQ selected ALONG WITH phase anomalies from the room will all affect sustain eminently more than the nut. Again, provided it's not made of rubber (or some other unsuitably soft material). And then, again, only for open strings. Because the nut material, whatever it is, isn't likely to be softer than your finger.

[Sea Chief]

This makes a mockery of my gtrs.. the best sustainers are the cheapest/ in fact reverse order of cost! My £10 romanian acoustic sustains beautifully: the nut is by way of an extra 0 fret (a basic nut 4mm behind fwiw), so nut angle totally n/a here. My next best is a chinese £90 acoustic (nut looks best of any, VG angle etc: Takamine). Then a china squier strat (nut a graphtech I put in). THEN the gibson. godammit.

I think its just luck. Get a gtr whose string vibrations match the body natural resonace & the nut can be just a "0" fret and bingo. Spruce top or laminate top is secondary. Nut angle is secondary (perhaps even completely n/a). My gib seems to have everything wrong.. if I actually prefer playing it -not- plugged into a Deluxe Reverb, as I do, then its a turkey surely.

[somebodyelseuk]

If the sustain is cack all over the fretboard, have a look at the bridge end and check the neck relief, as well. If it's just open strings, badly cut nut.

The strings not keeping tune... The nuts slots should point towards the tuner, not parallel with the fretboard. Materials? Bone is inconsistent. A good one is great, but if it's a duff one you could find your strings cutting through it in a matter of weeks - depends what part of the animal it came from and the state of it's health at the time of death.

[Sea Chief]

If the sustain is cack all over the fretboard, have a look at the bridge end and check the neck relief, as well. If it's just open strings, badly cut nut.

The strings not keeping tune... The nuts slots should point towards the tuner, not parallel with the fretboard. Materials? Bone is inconsistent. A good one is great, but if it's a duff one you could find your strings cutting through it in a matter of weeks - depends what part of the animal it came from and the state of it's health at the time of death.

Sustain is normal at open strings & up to 5th frets. Then it gets badly progressivley less, until at 12th it sounds like somethings wrong/ a dead dull sound.. and over last 6 frets its just embarrassingly unplayable there's so little sustain.

The tuning still drives me mad. Its better by widening the slots fractionally (seems like yes perhaps cut for 9's tho factory insatlled 10's its sold with).. but top 3 strings still do go a little sharp, so Im still retuning every 2 or 3 minutes albeit slightly now, which is unnacceptable and makes playing a trial every damn time instead of enjoyable.

Also Ive intoned to absolute perfection, neck has perfect small ammount of reflief, strings perfect height at bridge.. but I play a 3-finger A chord at 10th fret (with 3 open strings A, D and top E) and its all slightly out still (as well as bad sustain). Im ditching this f**king thing Im so SICK of re-tuning & the intonation always has to be compromised s'where which means jumping back to a std C chord at 1st fret sounds poorly out of tune (re-tune it around this chord & altho intonation "perfect" at 12 fret harmonics etc its still sounds out of tune at various positions all across the fretboard). HATE HATE HATE IT.

I can happily sit & play away on a £20 someone-threw-it-out china squier strat without ANY of these issues whatsoever, albeit its stupid heavy, fret ends sharp here n there, poor quality finish and parts etc.. IMO its still simply a better guitar.

[somebodyelseuk]

Sounds like the frets need levelling and perhaps, the action is too low, but difficult from an internet description.

If it was a Jazzmaster/Jaguar, I'd be checking the strings aren't rattling on the side of the bridge, but that wouldn't be an issue with a Gibson bridge, so the only thing between the saddles and the fret that could possibly be getting in the way are the pickups (if they were far too high) and the frets.

Best advice, instead of spending what could end being weeks, trying to fathom it on the 'net, is get it to a guitar repairer and ask for his opinion and a quote for work - I only say this because there was a guy on another forum was having trouble with a pickup issue. He'd post once a day after people gave suggestions and it took three weeks to sort, when it would have taken me 15 minutes if the guitar had been on my bench.

Alternatively, you sound like you don't like the thing. Trade it... in a REAL shop. I'm guessing this was an 'off the net' purchase? Moral of the story, ALWAYS try before you buy.

[Sea Chief]

The frets are all level relative to each other- none even slightly proud/ all checked. The action is not too low: the low E strings is 5/64ths above 12th fret, the top E is 4/64ths. Slight camber to the neck, a small 1mm gap when1st fret capo'd and string pressed down on last fret (so ~almost straight).

It couldnt be set up any better tbh. Ive spent prob a whole 24 hr days' worth of time on it. Its odd: play the G string fretted at 11th and relative to the open D its perfect (a 5th or whatever interval & they both ring harmonically perfectly together). I have vg ears re pitch. But fret it just 3 frets higher at 14th, and it completely flat. But both strings are perfectly intonated at 12th fret (obsessively so). But at 1st fret its flat, so I re-tune/ then once Im up nr 11th its way out. So I retune. Again and again and again. I check A to B, check intonation, check harmonic intervals.. until I give up/ put it back on wall. Thats my practise 1/2hr. How fun is that?

[Sea Chief]

Pickups are very low already to reduce the stupid, ridiculous bass as much as poss. The neck shape is -ideal- tho and the woodwork & quality is really lovely too, and neck to me is essential- I rarely find one that fits me like this.

There are few 'real gtr shops' anymore here. Not anywhere near me anyway. So Im loathed/ forced really to buy blind. It was only a few years old when I bought it, fretboard had no sign of wear, so the frets couldnt have been worn to bits or anything. Its a gibson so it should be very playable. I dont have a tech anywhere afaict, & wouldnt be able to address the lack of sustain anyway. It has to go.

[somebodyelseuk]

1mm is a lot of relief.
Off the top of my head, a Fender would be done to 0.025"/0.6mm. I looked for Gibson's spec and found this SG Neck Relief Specs? - Gibson Guitar Board about halfwya down there's a quote from a 'Gibson Inspector'.
I certainly wouldn't have any more relief than 0.025"0.6mm on a Gibson neck - probably a bit less.
Gibson's spec for the action is 5/64" at the 15th fret for the bottom E and 2/64" for the top E.

I sympathise, I do. Until it's setup to Gibson's sepcs, you're really chasing your tail. If you're going to attempt this yourslef, put new strings on it.

[Chuck H]

1MM (1/25") is actually a lot of relief for a rock n roll electric guitar. More typical would be 1/64" to 1/32".

Here's what I think may be happening...

The guitar, being an SG type, may have a very woody, even woofy tone. This damps sustain anyway unless you play loud enough to achieve acoustic feedback. This also tends to damp the sound of string rattle. Your report of sustain trouble from frets 5 through 12 would be consistent with fret damping due to too much relief and then compensating string height at the bridge. This is especially true if there is a flattening of the fingerboard at the neck heel. As is often the case. Especially with glue joint necks and especially with Gibsons. Add pot metal hardware and there you have it. Some guitars just don't sustain as well as others unless you play loud enough to take advantage of resonance. If you only play quiet then you're ass out with such a guitar .I think the setup on your SG, as great as you say it is, may be all wrong too. A fret level to correct any S curving due to flattening at the heel and a reduction, and possibly correction of gradient of the relief, and all else that comes with a proper setup is probably in order.

As far as the nut going sharp, well, you're also reporting intonation issues. It's very confusing. What is really happening is anyone's guess. To be honest I've never EVER heard of plain strings jamming in a nut such as to cause a continued sharpening of the note. No way. Weird. And I think it's a misperception. If the nut is responsible due to jamming you would also experience flattening on hard bends. I firmly believe the problem is not what you perceive it to be.

Even if it's a spongy neck the intonation should be stable enough to be set in one, best case position and stay there well enough that you don't need to retune for every playing position. There's a possibility that your fingerboard geometry and/or nut position is off. Believe it or not it happens. Otherwise it could just be more of your frustration clouding the actual issues. Maybe the guitar COULD be intonated by a professional. I dunno. I don't have the guitar in front of me.

Last, but not least, maybe you just don't like the guitar and are finding reasons to experience disappointment. You wanted to love it, you like the neck profile, but somehow it's just not doing it for you and that's just all F'd up in your mind. So every tuning problem becomes a bizarre and profound anomaly, every attempt to set the intonation fails (for SOME reason) and the guitar has sustain problems in the middle fingerboard positions even though there is reported to be proper relief and action height adjustment. Because letting your eyes and brain perceive the S curve in the neck would be admitting it's inferiority, Which it's absolutely not. Because you love it. That's why you hate it. Where's Freud when you need him.

[dmartn149]

It couldnt be set up any better tbh. Ive spent prob a whole 24 hr days' worth of time on it. Its odd: play the G string fretted at 11th and relative to the open D its perfect (a 5th or whatever interval & they both ring harmonically perfectly together). I have vg ears re pitch. But fret it just 3 frets higher at 14th, and it completely flat. But both strings are perfectly intonated at 12th fret (obsessively so). But at 1st fret its flat, so I re-tune/ then once Im up nr 11th its way out. So I retune. Again and again and again. I check A to B, check intonation, check harmonic intervals.. until I give up/ put it back on wall. Thats my practise 1/2hr. How fun is that?

You might want to have a real close look at the nut. I kind of sounds like the string slots could be rounded off, so that the string isn't supported at the very end of the fret board. This would give the effect of the nut being too far from the first fret, and it will make intonation of the whole neck impossible. Actually it will never be perfect on the whole neck, but should be a lot closer than what you describe. Also, make sure that the nut is glued down good, and is not moving.

[Sea Chief]

"Rock n Roll electric gtr" ! sheesh my teeth are gnashing already.

Actually I was being slightly lazy then with "1mm".. in fact its exactly the thickness of the strings' pkt (card), always used & a very useful guage: so thats morelike 0.6mm (I was meaning to say its 'lowest incriment without being flat/ touching').

So its set up very well, Ive been doing them for 30 years just fine.

The thing is both my gtrs are set up exactly the same. Squier, SG. The squier I have none of these wretched issues, it even stays in tune for a good 10mins until a slight shaprening of G and B for eg, which is fine with me. At 11th & 14th frets relative to open D, the G string is in tune, precisely at both positions. Its enjoyable to play.

There are no flat spots on the frets either at 11th or 14th frets on the Gibson. There are some slight flat spots further down on the unwound 3 strings in the usual 1st- 7th, but dont coincide with any particular out-of-kilter intonation like my 11th-14th fret eg.

So Im stumped.

[Chuck H]

Regardless of your 30 years experience my advice would be to take it to a professional. Tell them the problems you are having. Calmly. Try not to raise your voice too much in pitch or volume. Avoid gesticulations where your hands are above shoulder height. Play and approve the guitar before taking it home. Then decide it's still messed up and you hate it again later.