ERB Pickup

[David King]

Phil, Is that top wood a native burl or Myrtlewood? Looks hot for sure.

[Phil m]

The body was made from a nice and light piece of Swamp Ash. The top is indeed American burl Myrtle. I got both from Gallery Hardwoods. The customer was in the US too. So the wood had to travel around to world to be worked on to end back in the states after that

[David Schwab]

The customer was in the US too. So the wood had to travel around to world to be worked on to end back in the states after that

Isn't that cool when that happens? Plus where did the wood originate?

I'm going to be sending a set of six string pickups to Ireland to be installed in a bass which will then get shipped to the customer in Greece. Since the bass isn't finished yet I'm sending them right to the builder.

[Corvus]

Thank you all for your replies. i like the idea of dividing it into six sections of 2 strings each. i don't know when a bass stops becoming a bass, i just called it what i had heard it called(which is an extended range bass) but to me the idea sounded good and i've discovered that if i do it right it will have the range of a grand piano so i'm all for it. the .004" string is music wire. no one makes a string that small but i found music wire that is and it comes in lengths that are plenty long enough. my next(hopefully last) question would be do you think pole or bar magnets would be better and what the disadvantage of just making one really long pickup would be?

Strings are commercially available that can reach A4 (A above standard guitar high E) at up to a 30" scale, so your Ab4 will work at 32" scale (1 fret longer)

http://octave4plus.com/

I use them on my 28.75" scale 9-string guitar and they're amazing. I use .006's from the site above. I give them a day to stretch at E before tuning up to A and they're so thin that they've revealed every single imperfection in my tuning machines, nut & bridge but once I've fine sanded all the surfaces the strings touch they've performed very well.

They were developed by a bassist named Garry Goodman who plays a 12-string (single course) bass designed to be tuned to the same C#0 - G#4 range you're after - so it definitely can be done and has been done. Yeves Carbonne also has a beautiful Jerzy Drozd 12-string fretless now too.

I'd highly recommend multi-scale (fanned-fret) designs for their ergonomic and tonal benefits, especially for a bass with so many strings.

And good for you for not being discouraged by the nonsense comments about too many strings - if it interests you and you have the imagination to explore it then go for it I'd say. Diversity is a good thing, and you playing a 12-string ERB takes nothing away from those who play anything else. It's just a tool to express music with, and a 1-string washbucket bass is just as legit imo.

[Mark Hammer]

Seems to me that, given the differential amount of energy inherent in the vibration of a .195" and .004" string, that a split pickup is absolutely called for, if only to be able to add gain to the sensing of the thinner strings. I mean, you could adjust the height of the pickups but I strongly doubt that would provide enough compensation to provide even modest level compensation.

So, while I have no experience to back it up, my gut tells me that you're likely looking at a minimum of 3 pickups (4 strings each) to cover the entire 12-string range appropriately. The pickups themselves would necessarily go to an active circuit, and the gain applied to each coil would have to be individually adjustable. Essentially the same sort of thing one sees with divided pickups for synth purposes, but without the expectation of multiple outputs. In the absence of something like that, there is no way you could even hope to reach an agreeable volume setting, given the huge disparity in signal output of the various strings.

[David Schwab]

Strings are commercially available that can reach A4 (A above standard guitar high E) at up to a 30" scale, so your Ab4 will work at 32" scale (1 fret longer)

http://octave4plus.com/

That was the string I mentioned earlier, but I couldn't remember the name.

[David King]

Corvus, thanks for posting that link and some factual experience. I have no doubt that someone will break the 16 string barrier any day now and I'll have to shuffle off in ignominy.

Pickups are easy to wind so just do a set of 12 string single coils and see if they work or not. My gut is telling me the shorter coils will give you more options later on but by that time you will know exactly what each string is going to want, relative to the others, and which strings are going to sound better with A-2 mags and which will need A3, A4, A5 C8 etc to best collect a useful sound across the board.

[O4P]

single course 12-string

Hello everyone. I joined to add to this thread and perhaps help.

The single course 12-string bass guitar was a concept created by bassist Garry Goodman, who also gave us the 7 string bass in 1987. It was completed in January of 2005.
The idea was not to have lots of strings, but to have a " master controller" made for bass and Stick/Warr techniques as well as guitar techniques. Garry's bass parts on "Tap Dance On A Cloud" can best demonstrate the reason behind so many strings, especially the 4-6 octave arpeggios played on the Adler 11-string in "Bubblework". These parts could NOT be played on 4.5 or 6 string basses.

Bass guitar players who are composers and arrangers can't always have access to the piano, and so the Adler 12 Garry Goodman commissioned was designed to span the range of the 97 note Bösendorfer model 290 grand piano. The first tuning was Bb00-F4,then B00-F#4,C0-G4 and then C#0 to Ab4. Garry writes special bass parts for his 7,8,9,11 and single course 12-string basses. They aren't used to play 4,5 or 6 string bass parts .

Garry wanted more note positions available, like 7 locations to fret middle C
so he could read and play piano pieces as written, voice string section chords, and read the Slonimsky Melodic Pattern book note for note, non-transposed. With 435 note positions, it made it easier to avoid two hand touch style "collisions" when landing on the same string .

He had to develop the Ab4 string for the 32" scale side of the 34"-32" fanned fretboard, which lead to the first genuine A440 string for the 24" to 30" scale lengths. After several years of custom drawn wire runs, the Ab4 string now exists. When Yves Carbonne decided to have a version of Garry's 12 made, he opted for the 34" scale and the original Adler tuning of B00 to F#4. He was unable to find any string that could tune to F#4 at 34" and last. Garry sent him the Octave4Plus F#4 .006 for the 34" scale, which allows for a stable f# tuning.

The problem with having 12 strings spanning 8 octaves was getting both 16 hertz and 3 khz to sound at equal volume when notes from these two extremes were played at the same time. Playing open C#0 and the C#8 at the pickup on the Ab4 string together is clear as a bell.
A special single soap bar Villex Hi-Fi pickup was made for the bass. Also, special onboard pre-amps were designed and installed to maintain zero phase variance to prevent harmonic realignment, which can make a 34" C#0 string sound muddy. The Adler 12 has two sets of sweep-able 3 band EQs with 20 db boost/cut and the pre-amp out is 2 Hz to 200 khz. This makes the bass sound clear through headphones. BTW, the neck is less than 3/4" thick.

Garry currently uses an Octave4Plus .006 or .007 for the high Ab4 string and the OctaveZero .214 for the C#0. Octave4Plus may release a custom .004 and .003( stronger than most .007s) soon.
Here is a poor quality video with direct to CD audio of the Adler 12 made to demonstrate that the first fret C# string D0, 18 Hz, on the .214 can be heard as a D:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84743029&hl=en
Hope that helps

[David Schwab]

Bass guitar players who are composers and arrangers can't always have access to the piano, and so the Adler 12 Garry Goodman commissioned was designed to span the range of the 97 note Bösendorfer model 290 grand piano. The first tuning was Bb00-F4,then B00-F#4,C0-G4 and then C#0 to Ab4. Garry writes special bass parts for his 7,8,9,11 and single course 12-string basses. They aren't used to play 4,5 or 6 string bass parts.

Music is music. You don't need a piano to compose music. I've composed music on 4 string bass, guitar, keys, what ever I had in front of me. I've written a few compositions totally on paper and a few on the computer with no instrument to enter the notes.

You only need a few octaves to compose music. There is no need to have the entire range of a piano unless you plan on performing the music yourself. So these instruments have nothing to do with composing.

Personally I'd rather write on guitar than bass, unless I'm writing a piece of music that will be performed on bass. Every bass player should know how to play guitar. They are tuned the same, use the same fingerings, etc. Electric bass is really a low tuned guitar anyway. I use keyboards to write keyboard parts, bass to write bass parts, etc.

These extended range instruments are really more performance instruments than anything else. It's neat to see people like Charlie Hunter play the bass and guitar parts at the same time, or people playing Stick and stuff, but I never had a desire to be a one man band in a live situation, even though I am on recordings. Seems kind of gimmicky. Just over dub your parts on the appropriate instruments.

I mean why be able to play in the guitar range on a "bass" when I can play the parts on a guitar?

[Corvus]

Music is music. You don't need a piano to compose music. I've composed music on 4 string bass, guitar, keys, what ever I had in front of me. I've written a few compositions totally on paper and a few on the computer with no instrument to enter the notes.

You only need a few octaves to compose music. There is no need to have the entire range of a piano unless you plan on performing the music yourself. So these instruments have nothing to do with composing.

Personally I'd rather write on guitar than bass, unless I'm writing a piece of music that will be performed on bass. Every bass player should know how to play guitar. They are tuned the same, use the same fingerings, etc. Electric bass is really a low tuned guitar anyway. I use keyboards to write keyboard parts, bass to write bass parts, etc.

These extended range instruments are really more performance instruments than anything else. It's neat to see people like Charlie Hunter play the bass and guitar parts at the same time, or people playing Stick and stuff, but I never had a desire to be a one man band in a live situation, even though I am on recordings. Seems kind of gimmicky. Just over dub your parts on the appropriate instruments.

I mean why be able to play in the guitar range on a "bass" when I can play the parts on a guitar?

With all due respect David, you're describing a bunch of arbitrary preferences you have for composing & playing.

The extended-range players posting in this thread are just describing some of the things we do with our instruments. No one is trying to convince you to change what you do with yours. You've made your personal preferences clear but please don't expect others to make the same choices and have the same tastes as you.

[O4P]

"You only need a few octaves to compose music. "

I read Mr. Goodman your quote. He responded:
" He means HE only needs two octaves to compose HIS music.
I have tunes where the bass part spans 6 octaves. How would anyone experience that if there were not 6 octaves to play?. Students of composition and composers are usually interested in exploring musical possibilities. How does this gentleman experience a Sesquiquinquetone progression? The equal division of eleven octaves into twelve parts. Only on an 88 note piano.
Does he sight sing #921, page 124 in The Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns by Nicolas Slonimsky in order to hear this melodic pattern dividing seven octaves into six equal parts? It is all on my fretboard. If what he composes is written within two octaves, I don't expect him to understand the concept. It is a matter of personal choices. Just allow me to make mine without criticism.

The Expanded Range Bass Guitar is not a trophy, but a serious tool giving the bassist/guitarist the span of an 8 octave range to HEAR any melodic pattern or voicing or note combination, but on a bass guitar. I don't expect bass players to understand or agree, but have open minds to other players musical needs. Having the range of the piano allows me to play and hear all the Bach two part inventions as written or play through the "Real Book" as a pianist does. If one doesn't want to have this music under their fingertips, they don't need a single course 12-string bass. " (end quote)

I think their are two schools: the players with a concept for the expanded range instruments and those without one. Oh, and Garry does not mean anything personally towards you,David.

[David King]

I agree that DS may be barking up the wrong tree here. Clearly these discussions have been carried on elsewhere, ad-infinitum and the ERB payers are justifiably tired of hearing it all again.
Since we have several knowledgeable players, I will state my prejudices against this instruments and hope that the answers provided will unstick my mind a little.
My first prejudice is that these instruments may sooner or later cause harm to the players left hand and shoulder due to the extreme width of the fingerboards and the overall weight and balance of the instruments (if worn on a conventional strap). I'm a little worried that younger players will latch on to the concept and that there won't be any local teachers or guides to keep them from hurting themselves. I suppose with the internet they will find like minded folks who have the integrity and knowledge to help keep this from happening.

My other prejudice is that this may turn out be to a fad. Like the many others that have preceded it, when it passes there will be a pile of expensive, highly impractical and resource intensive instruments, that no one will play or work on, and they will become a small footnote in history (like the Arpeggione of c. 1850)
I guess that's not the worst thing that could happen but it strikes me a sad and perhaps avoidable.

[Corvus]

My first prejudice is that these instruments may sooner or later cause harm to the players left hand and shoulder due to the extreme width of the fingerboards and the overall weight and balance of the instruments (if worn on a conventional strap). I'm a little worried that younger players will latch on to the concept and that there won't be any local teachers or guides to keep them from hurting themselves. I suppose with the internet they will find like minded folks who have the integrity and knowledge to help keep this from happening.

My other prejudice is that this may turn out be to a fad. Like the many others that have preceded it, when it passes there will be a pile of expensive, highly impractical and resource intensive instruments, that no one will play or work on, and they will become a small footnote in history (like the Arpeggione of c. 1850)
I guess that's not the worst thing that could happen but it strikes me a sad and perhaps avoidable.

In my experience as a teacher and player I'd say that it's actually less likely to have left hand problems on many-stringed extended instruments. The wider fingerboards force players to adopt the wrist-below-the-neck "classical" hand position as well as have the instrument higher on the chest to be able to reach the low-pitched strings.

Also in my experience the weight issue is a materials issue rather than a number of strings issue. I have a 9-string extended-scale electric guitar that is lighter than my headless 6-string graphite-necked Steinberger. (the body wood of the Steinberger happens to be heavier than the woods in my Ergo 9-string)

Players who prefer heavier materials for tone or aesthetic values have many support options to prevent injury - Planet Waves and Slider Straps both offer straps that distribute instrument weight over both shoulders, and NS Design offers instrument stands and ergonomic shoulder supports. Players of heavy instruments can benefit from these regardless of how many strings they have.

I fully agree with you that weight and potential hand injury are serious issues, but they're no more problematic on extended-range than 'standard' instruments.


As much as I love playing extended range instruments I think the chances of them becoming a fad are all but zero. Decades of mass-production have indoctrinated our culture into thinking that 6-string guitars and 4-string basses are 'standard' as if there's something special or normal about those arbitrary design parameters. Extended-range instruments are usually very high-end custom builds - not something that inexperienced players are likely to rush out and buy in large numbers.

Custom instruments are vastly less resource intensive than cheap low quality mass produced instruments that people buy in large numbers for themselves or their kids to try and then either reject them or buy additional higher quality instruments when they progress. I'd also argue that reducing body size and using headless designs is much more effective in reducing resource use than reducing the number of strings. (my 2¢)


(For whatever it's worth, my opinions are based on 19 years of full time guitar teaching and playing 7-string electric guitar, and 6 years of playing an extended-range 36"-32" multi-scale guitar.)

[David Schwab]

"You only need a few octaves to compose music. "

I read Mr. Goodman your quote. He responded:
" He means HE only needs two octaves to compose HIS music.
I have tunes where the bass part spans 6 octaves. How would anyone experience that if there were not 6 octaves to play?.

Let's keep things in contex, shall we. You wrote:

Bass guitar players who are composers and arrangers can't always have access to the piano

I wrote:

There is no need to have the entire range of a piano unless you plan on performing the music yourself. So these instruments have nothing to do with composing.

I'm a bass guitar player, and I don't always write on the piano. So writing a piece of music to be performed on that particular instrument is quite different than needing the range of a piano for composing. Even if you are composing for a symphony orchestra you still only need just a couple of octaves, since you are not going to be performing the music, you are composing. I said this in my post, twice actually.

But that wasn't what you wrote. You said if a piano was not available an ERB was needed to compose music, and that's not true. And you wouldn't be composing on a piano to later play it on an ERB. That would be dumb.

I have to assume that Garry is not stupid, but why would he think I write music that only spans two octaves? I write music to played on an ensemble of instruments, so the range is dictated by the instrumentation and the music. But any piece of music can be written on a one octave keyboard, as long as you realize you are going to be transposing the octaves. That doesn't mean you can play it back on a one octave keyboard. So perhaps you didn't quote me correctly.

How does this gentleman experience a Sesquiquinquetone progression? The equal division of eleven octaves into twelve parts. Only on an 88 note piano.

I kow what it is, I'm an old fart, and it's "Sequiquinquetone progression". Who cares? Really. That has little to do with music as much as it does with theory. Pianists don't even use all 88 keys in a single composition, and I'd hazard that the top and bottom octaves are rarely used in even classical music!

John Coltrane studied from that work, and he didn't need that extended range! You practice that stuff, you don't perform it.

Now of course you and Garry wouldn't know it, but I happen to be a classically trained musician (not on bass) and have played in symphony orchestras in my formative years. So who are you trying to tell this stuff to?

Does he sight sing #921, page 124 in The Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns by Nicolas Slonimsky in order to hear this melodic pattern dividing seven octaves into six equal parts? It is all on my fretboard. If what he composes is written within two octaves, I don't expect him to understand the concept. It is a matter of personal choices. Just allow me to make mine without criticism.

Once again, who cares. I studied that stuff a long time ago, and it's good for practicing fingerings. I pratice scales and all, but it's not music, it's music theory. I'm an improviser, that's what I love doing. I enjoy composing music right on the spot. Many classically trained musicians can't play without music in front of them unless they have memorized the piece.

As far as not understanding the concept, your friend is full of himself. Except for piano, how many instruments can play a scale in that many octaves? And does it matter? Not one bit. If he really wants to get interesting, don't limit the music to the western 12 tone scale.

Playing scales out of a book is not music. It's technique. I know technique. I have great technique. Also go have a listen to Jeff Berlin play from those books on a four string bass, and try to out perform him.

This reeks of musical snobbery! If you can't make meaningful music on one string, then you are using the instrument as a crutch.

The Expanded Range Bass Guitar is not a trophy, but a serious tool giving the bassist/guitarist the span of an 8 octave range to HEAR any melodic pattern or voicing or note combination, but on a bass guitar. I don't expect bass players to understand or agree, but have open minds to other players musical needs. Having the range of the piano allows me to play and hear all the Bach two part inventions as written or play through the "Real Book" as a pianist does. If one doesn't want to have this music under their fingertips, they don't need a single course 12-string bass. " (end quote)

One again ... you don't need that range to realize a single melodic passage. And show me some examples of a piece of music that uses that range just for the melody, and was written to be performed on that instrument. Arraignments will make use the ranges of various instruments, but then you have a nice counterpoint going on, not the whole thing being played on one instrument, unless it's a piano.

And the improper capitalization makes it look like a trophy. It's like "I have more strings than you!" Who has the bigger penis? It's how you use either one. I can use five or six strings quite well thank you. I can use more as well, but haven't had an interest in doing so. I invented an eight string extended range instrument back in the 70's that had the entire range of a bass and guitar. So this is nothing new to me.

Oh please... Your friend makes assumptions about what I know about music. I understand a lot about music and can play anything I hear in my head. You sing me a melody and I'll play it back. You dont need to have that many octaves to play almost any piece of music. And you can only do that if you are playing solo. I used to practice all the two part inventions back in High School. I had no problem playing them on a four string bass. I know how to shift octaves!

Also the logic is flawed. It's like saying the only good literature is only written in English. So if you can't play that extended range the music is not good?

I think their are two schools: the players with a concept for the expanded range instruments and those without one. Oh, and Garry does not mean anything personally towards you,David.

You keep limiting the discussion to the instrument. As I said, music is music. It exists independently of the instruments that play it. And that was my point, and in context to the original statement that ERB are needed by composers that don't have access to a piano. That's a generalization based on the idea that you need a piano to compose music. You don't have to play in that octave to write music that will be played in that octave. You only need to know what the notes are and what octave it will be in. That's composing, vs. performing. Does your friend not understand that?

I like five string basses better than basses with four strings. A lot of virtuoso bassist are more than happy with four strings. Two that pop into mind are Stanley and Jaco. Jaco didn't see the point in a five string bass.

I'm not going that far. I have no problems with these instruments, except it always comes back to someone who really wants to be playing another instrument. When you see people with ERB, they often do things that sound like guitar solos. That's fine, but you can solo just fine in the normal bass range. It does not constrict you from playing any melodic idea you have, it only limits the range you are playing in. And even on guitar, many good players don't use the very top notes.

I play every note on my basses depending on the music, but if I'm recording and want an upper octave solo, I'll play it on guitar, because I can. I'm not someone who wants to play guitar, but can only play bass, so I stick a bunch of upper strings on the instrument. I solo all the time, and I've never run into a situation where I needed to be an octave higher. My opinion on piccolo basses is the same. Stanley wanted to get into a higher range, but he also doesn't play guitar as far as I know.

And with all due respect, I couldn't care less what Garry thinks of me, since we have never met, nor has he ever seen me play. So none of this had anything to do with any person, just the false statement that you need a piano to compose music. You don't.

With all due respect David, you're describing a bunch of arbitrary preferences you have for composing & playing.

The extended-range players posting in this thread are just describing some of the things we do with our instruments. No one is trying to convince you to change what you do with yours. You've made your personal preferences clear but please don't expect others to make the same choices and have the same tastes as you.

This is just my opinion. I'm not saying something is right or wrong, because even if I don't care for something, I respect the player and think all forms of music are valid. However statements where made that I wanted to refute, since I feel the logic was flawed, and the large base of written and performed music has done well without needing that range on an instrument. I started off by saying you do not need a piano to compose music. That has nothing to do with performing music or exercises that have a wide range, and might need such an instrument. But if you listen to many virtuoso classical guitarists, you will find that they never had a problem playing back piano or orchestra pieces on their limited range of the guitar. It just requires some arranging.

I do enjoy some ER players like Yves Carbonne, because he's a great musician, not because he's playing something descended from a bass guitar. I'm not a bass snob, or one of these bass players that will only write the word "guitar" with asterisks. Some other ERB players I have heard are just wannabe guitarist, and others while entertaining, probably couldn't hold down the bass function in a band situation. They might be able to do some tricks, but they are not solid musicians.

I also enjoy playing many different instruments, and find that more satisfying than trying to make the bass guitar into every possible instrument. It's the same way I feel about tapping. I'd much rather see people do amazing things with standard technique, and it can be done. Just check out some of the stuff Shawn Lane did without tapping, or even an old skool player like Robert Fripp.

I play bass because I love the bass, not because I can't play anything else.

I'm a very open minded and experimental musician, but I have also been playing a very long time, so after a while nothing seems new anymore.

Like I said, I did the 8 string bass (E-A-D-G-B-E-A-D) back in the 70's.

[David Schwab]

I agree that DS may be barking up the wrong tree here.

Hey, it was brought up here so... woof!

My other prejudice is that this may turn out be to a fad. Like the many others that have preceded it, when it passes there will be a pile of expensive, highly impractical and resource intensive instruments, that no one will play or work on, and they will become a small footnote in history (like the Arpeggione of c. 1850)
I guess that's not the worst thing that could happen but it strikes me a sad and perhaps avoidable.

Exactly. It's like the 5 or 6 string basses (or even 7). Not everyone needs one. But you see people with fives sixes and they hardly ever use the extra strings. I use the low B not only for low notes, but to allow me to play in other positions, which is what Anthony Jackson had in mind.

Once upon a time the sacbut was a popular instrument. Anyone ever seen one played?