Pickup gurus...a question

[Possum]

...

I have a friend who is a master player of jazz blues/jump blues and he mentioned it must be a bitch changing your strings everytime you swap a pickup out, so I mentioned I just use a capo and loosened the strings and he suddenly started swearing a blue streak for about 2 minutes. I asked him what was wrong, did the dog die or something? He said no, he'd been playing guitar for years and never thought of doing something that stupid simple :-) and wasted alot of strings.... It would be ridiculous to change strings anyway everytime you test a new prototype or part change, how could tell anything with new strings every time :-) On Fender guitars they have the vintage slotted tuners so you can pop those out and put them back in most of the time, eventually though either method a string will break at the tuner after many detunings, usually the 1st or 2nd string will.

[David Schwab]

Would you use latex to cover your instrument? It might prevent it from getting any STDs, but it won't do much for the tone!

I bought a used Mosrite bass once that was refinished in red latex house paint! Man that looked like shit.

I still don't think a thin layer or latex rubber would alter the tone of a solid body. They make those stupid bags that wrap around the body to protect the finish. On an acoustic... absolutly. But just leaning your body against the solid body would have more impact on the tone that a coat of rubber (just as when you press your stomach against the back of an acoustic).

What I always thought would mess the tone up was putting fabric and wall paper under a thick finish ... but look at all those paisley Teles.

Then there's the guitars with some sort of decoupage finish, or broken mirrors, coins, etc.

One of the best sounding guitars I have is splattered with a bunch of different color lacquer. Is was an old EVH painted Kramer that had the body cracked in half and glued back together. My partner who did most of the spraying at Showster left it sitting in the spray both, and at the end of a spray session would empty his gun on the body! It has a ton on paint on it. You can actually feel the paint... it's very 3D. The Explorer style headstock was also broken off and glued back on. After he gave it to me I inlayed a bunch of found items like reflectors from trucks and stuff.

It's a fairly heavy ash body. At one point it was my main guitar. It had a Floyd and stacked Duncan Strat pickups. It got a really good Hendrix tone.

I bet if you had two identical unfinished guitars and finished both in same thickness nitro and poly and had some instrument that could measure accurately the resonance and frequency response of the wood you WOULD hear a difference. Most of us probably wouldn't notice, but take someone like Eric Johnson and I bet he could hear it. I bet violin makers aren't using poly finishes for their high end stuff, and there is a reason why. Little things really DO make a difference, otherwise everyone's pickups would sound the same, right? I think its a shame Gibson is using stuff that is tone killing in their high end Les Pauls, but they did tell someon they aren't for playing. I think probably the older Japanese lacquer finished LP's are probably the best made since the real thing.....

Two identical unfinished guitars will sound different anyway. Violin makers use the same finishes that violin makers have always used. You can french polish an electric guitar. I'm not sure if anyone has done that before.

I prefer nitro, but poly finishes are often easier to work with. My buddy has some real nice guitars finished in 2 part urethane that look and sound great.

I agree with Jack Briggs that how you approach it is the most important. I'm a firm believer in details. I only apply enough finish to be able to rub out and have it last.

Here's the "Splattercaster". Now that I dug it up for the photos I think I'll put her back together. Lots of Matador Red and Tropical Turquoise on there! (57 Chevy colors).

[Curtis Novak]

Hey Dave,
I was doing some searching in google for a project, and came across this post and forum.... very nice place.

I had a couple of corrections to make to your post regarding the repair I did on Chris Duarte's pickup.

1) It was the MIDDLE pickup I had repaired, and actually I am quite flattered you could not find the repair!

2) I never slid the coil off the magnets, that would be VERY dangerous. Chris was distraught b/c he loved that pickup. When he dropped it it broke the lead wire which makes a very hard repair. What I did was very carefully removed the base plate and retrieved the lead wire carefully unwrap 1 turn and soldered back to the terminal.

Here is the link to the repair.
Curtis Novak Pickup Repair: Chris Duarte Pickup Repair

As you can see from the pickup it was VERY corroded Chris not only sweats a lot when he plays, but it is very acidic and it corrodes the electronics. I believe it is his sweat that soaked down the pole pieces that caused the shorted.


curtis

[Mark Hammer]

Yet one more reason why I think it's a smart practice to stick a couple of turns of teflon plumber's tape around the polepieces before starting to wind the actual wire. At least if the polepieces DO have a reason to oxidize, they"ll keep it to themselves and not rub directly against the coil.

Like Spence, my initial reaction to the original post was that something must have buggered up the magnets. There are a lot of potential sources: transformers, fluorescent lights, other pickups, and more.

[Curtis Novak]

Mark I don't agree with that. Heck this is a 43 year old pickups that has seen some pretty extreme conditions, and it was doing just fine. It only broke when it was dropped and the pickup smashed into the curb. These were/are great sounding pickup that are well engineered, meaning a simple solid design that has stood the test of time. I see no good reason to deviate from that design, as you stand the chance of messing up a good thing.

I spent 16 years working at a National Science lab, and did MUCH government work. My favorite quote I kept on my office door was.

"A Camel is a Horse that was designed by a committee."

curtis

[RedHouse]

Hey Dave,
I was doing some searching in google for a project, and came across this post and forum.... very nice place.

I had a couple of corrections to make to your post regarding the repair I did on Chris Duarte's pickup.

1) It was the MIDDLE pickup I had repaired, and actually I am quite flattered you could not find the repair!

2) I never slid the coil off the magnets, that would be VERY dangerous. Chris was distraught b/c he loved that pickup. When he dropped it it broke the lead wire which makes a very hard repair. What I did was very carefully removed the base plate and retrieved the lead wire carefully unwrap 1 turn and soldered back to the terminal.

Here is the link to the repair.
Curtis Novak Pickup Repair: Chris Duarte Pickup Repair

As you can see from the pickup it was VERY corroded Chris not only sweats a lot when he plays, but it is very acidic and it corrodes the electronics. I believe it is his sweat that soaked down the pole pieces that caused the shorted.


curtis

I've always liked your blog-style website Curtis, good to see you posting here.

Yet one more reason why I think it's a smart practice to stick a couple of turns of teflon plumber's tape around the polepieces before starting to wind the actual wire. At least if the polepieces DO have a reason to oxidize, they"ll keep it to themselves and not rub directly against the coil.

Like Spence, my initial reaction to the original post was that something must have buggered up the magnets. There are a lot of potential sources: transformers, fluorescent lights, other pickups, and more.

The original post was about pickups changing over the first few days time, which BTW I agree totally with Possum on that, I have had the same experiences.

On the tape thing, it does work well, recall Leo dipped his pickups in sheep-dip, err, uhh, Laquer.

I've been experimenting with polyurethane lately.

[Curtis Novak]

Thanks for the kind words Brad. I just wish I had more time to keep it updated anymore it has been some time since I have had time to add new ones. I have a bunch of very cool repairs that i think people would be very interested in. I created an in shop Wiki that I document everything I work on... one day I will get them out there.

Yep they dipped in lacquer for a time, I think that had more to do with helping to glue in the magnets to the forbon. Besides there is a huge difference between a thin film of lacquer and Teflon tape. Secondly in my personal opinion of all the pickups that died from corrosion of the rod magnet. I do not believe Teflon tape, lacquer, poly or what ever would actually prevent the corrosion. Corrosion is like a cancer and it just needs to get a start, from there it will grow and spread. With the tape all it takes is one microscopic gap, or a lap where it will eventually seep through to the coil, and in this case where the coil was essentially potted in very acidic sweat night after night. It will find a path to the coil. As for Lacquer, Poly, or other coatings, just look at a how well paint protects a car from rust! Once again in this case, since the sweat soaks down the rods all it takes is 1 small spot where the rod was not completely coated, or the paint cracked or chipped that the corrosion will begin. The only coils that are protected from corrosion is the plastic bobbins like a tron, or paf where the coil is completely separated from metal.

Lastly as I stated prior this is a 40+ year old pickup that in normal operating conditions would last many more decades. Why do you see the need to "Improve" it, and take the risk of turning a great Quarter horse in to a Camel.

If you look at this in terms of an incandescent light bulbs... There are companies that make a bulb that is guaranteed for LIFE.
The problem is the way they do this is it burn much lower. The effect of this is a 75 watt bulb now is only as bright as a 45 watt bulb! Now this on the surface sounds great to never have to change a burnt out bulb again. The problem is it uses more electricity for less light, so in the end you are spending WAY more money for electricity and less light. Now you have a bulb that will last for ever, but it is a PIA to read or work by b/c the lighting sucks.

In terms of pickups, if someone can get 50 years out of awesome sounding pickup, why would you want to risk making it the slightest bit lack luster to add an extra 50 years to its life? Sometimes in life GREAT sounding, tasting, and looking things NEED a reasonable life.

Just my Opinion...
curtis

[Mark Hammer]

And a well-reasoned opinion it is!

Yeah, I'm not going to arm-wrestle anyone about the teflon thing. If existing approaches allow a pickup to survive and thrive a generation or two....and maybe more in the absence of trauma...I'm not going to stand up and declare the methods used were wrong.

But we're not making 43 year-old pickups anymore. We're making new ones, and we're collectively at liberty to use whatever works. The teflon suggestion is certainly not foolproof, but its cheap, fast, and pleasingly thin. If it were not as cheap, easy, and thin as it is, there's no way I'd even dream of suggesting it. Just something to try. If laquering the polepieces themselves gets you there as easily, quickly and cheaply, go for it.

[David Schwab]

Curtis, welcome to the forum! Nice to have you here.

I have to say that I don't think a thin layer of tape, or even plastic, between the coil and magnets will change the tone in any noticeable amount. That's been my experience anyway.

But Leo did have a knack for coming up with simple and elegant ways to make things that worked great.

[Curtis Novak]

Thanks Dave,

Being a 1 man shop I generally dont have a lot of time to spend on forums, currently my shop is broken down, boxed up in preps to move to SoCal, so I have a little time on my hands at the moment. I hope to keep up here in the future.

Mark far be it from me to suggest new things should not be tried. I spend a lot of time generally horsing around in my shop and having a good time experimenting making one off pickups. I am all for making new pickups for today, most of my pickups are new designs or variants of classic pickups. My comment here was more related to someone fixing a "problem" that really is not a problem in the big picture. Hence my comment of the Camel, I was only express my personal philosophy of if it is not broken dont fix it, b/c the fix might be adding new problems. What we know is there there are thousands of pickups that are over 50 years old, most have not fallen victim to corrosion. I have repaired many pickups that have died from corrosion, I have to say that in every case there was extreme conditions involved. I love repairing vintage pickups, of any and all variants, there is always something to learn in dissecting them and examine their construction, and seeing how the materials hold up. For instance I get a lot of failed Hofner pickups. What kills them in my experience is the glue from red the tape they used. It was some sort of solvent based glue that has evaporated into the coil so the tape has lost its gum, and it compromises the insulation on the coil.

curtis

[RedHouse]

... The teflon suggestion is certainly not foolproof, but its cheap, fast, and pleasingly thin. If it were not as cheap, easy, and thin as it is, there's no way I'd even dream of suggesting it. Just something to try...

I'm sure you know that suggestion has been common knowlege around here for years right?

...I have to say that I don't think a thin layer of tape, or even plastic, between the coil and magnets will change the tone in any noticeable amount. That's been my experience anyway....But Leo did have a knack for coming up with simple and elegant ways to make things that worked great.

Totally agree, and in the case of Strat/Tele pickups can dramatically help reduce the icepik/shattered-glass tone.

Yeah, Leo Fender and Nate Daniel sure gave meaning to the term frugal.

... My comment here was more related to someone fixing a "problem" that really is not a problem in the big picture....

And I do believe these more modern windings we do (except for the PAF club of course) will be lasting a whole lot longer than the old vintage pickups did with the modern poly insulations we have now-a-days.

[Rick Turner]

I'm in the "thin polyester is fine" camp. I can do a poly finish that's less than .006", and I can start it on a Monday and have it rubbed out on Thursday night, and I'll get no finish sinking in three years time other than a spruce acoustic top showing those nice grain lines as the summer wood shrinks down just a bit between the lines of winter wood. I use polyester on solid bodies, semi-hollow bodies, and full acoustic guitars and ukes. No problem. And a number of top end acoustic builders use poly sealer coats under nitro lacquer for the no-sink, fast build, but nitro buff look. Bourgeois, Charles Fox, and Collings all do this, and their guitars are sold on tone. Larrivee and Taylor do a full polyester finish, and nobody complains. You do not have to UV cure poly to get it's benefits. I can rub out 18 hours after last coat just catalyzing with MEKP. Also we can do the whole sanding and rubout process dry; no messy wet sanding. I'll put a good thin polyester finish up against nitro any day of the week when it comes to durability or tone. The stuff is fantastic, and you're talking just a few grams of weight added. I'll do a before and after finish weigh-in on something soon and report in.

[Curtis Novak]

Rick, I remember you giving me a tour of your shop a handful of years ago, and I was very impressed, your finishes were amazing. I think at that time you were still sharing a spray booth with a surf board company or something. A year or so later on a second tour you had your own spray booth. I was really amazed at your thin finishes, and were very resonant.
curtis

[Rick Turner]

It's not that big a deal once you get used to the materials, though I'll admit it's taken years of experimentation only to have my former #1 finish supplier, McFadden, go belly up. I'm now using polyesters from Simtec in Orange County, and they're great other than short shelf life for opened cans. We use Bloxygen after pouring, and we use a couple of gallons of the stuff a month, but it does want to kick off when exposed to oxygen.

[Curtis Novak]

Well I am in the middle of moving my shop to Southern California, from North Carolina. I am debating stopping finishing all together, as I am sure the laws will be a lot different. I actually just sold my big spray booth last week it was just too much to consider moving across the country.

curtis