paf specificiation (details)

[David Schwab]

... and most important WHAT tone? No one agrees on THAT tone. There is no such thing. Your description of THAT tone may be totally different from mine. That's the thing about PAF's is there is no consistancy ... OTHER than they were machine wound.

I was going to say that, but I'm tired of saying that, as are the other guys here who actually wind PAF type pickups.

There is no PAF tone, and as Possum pointed out recently, what people call a PAF tone is not what a real PAF sounds like!

So pick a tone...

[Possum]

...

Well there IS a tone, I wouldn't call it a tone though I would call it a characteristic. the problem is that the generations that are alive now and playing electric guitars mostly have never played the real thing and only have classic recordings to refer to. I just got the new pickup book thats out and it has some good interviews with the big guy pickup makers. One thing pointed out that I totally agree with is, that modern players have forgotten how to adjust their amps, adjust their guitars. How many guitar players do you know that actually USE the tone pots, control the amp from the guitar via the volume pot? Back in the day they DID do exactly that, so if a modern player sat down with those same rigs they would be lost. PAFs are not really warm pickups, the warm tones you hear on those old recordings are because the amps were adjusted that way, they generally didn't have their volume pot on the guitar on full, and used their tone pots, plus those recordings were made on tube recording gear. I don't think most guitar players now could pick out a real PAF in a blind audio test. I've noticed that in every "shootout" that included a real PAF, it never scores very high, they always choose the darker, heavier sounding buckers.

I sent a set of my previous PAF attempt to a guy who plays Zeppelin stuff, real good player. He told me Page's guitar tech told him he was surprised at how bright Page's PAFs are. Next thing he tells me is my pickups are kinda bright 3 days later, he says oh, uh he didn't EQ his amp for the pickups, now they sound great. Proves my point

Are there bad sounding PAFs? Yes of course there are, Gibson bought junk magnets for best price, many of those pickups now have coil shorts in them that made them muddy sounding, etc. their parts were inconsistent alloys etc. etc. But there IS a classic PAF characteristic tone and you hear it in every classic rock recording, Bloomfield, Page, Clapton, Allman. Most players don't know what to listen for so they think all those pickups in those guy's recordings sound "different." Well, I've been studying these damn things since I started, and more instensely than ever this last year, so I heard the common thread between those recordings that are real plain to me. PAFs are an open book, you just have to learn how to read......

[PAF-Boy]

Well there IS a tone, I wouldn't call it a tone though I would call it a characteristic. the problem is that the generations that are alive now and playing electric guitars mostly have never played the real thing and only have classic recordings to refer to. I just got the new pickup book thats out and it has some good interviews with the big guy pickup makers. One thing pointed out that I totally agree with is, that modern players have forgotten how to adjust their amps, adjust their guitars. How many guitar players do you know that actually USE the tone pots, control the amp from the guitar via the volume pot? Back in the day they DID do exactly that, so if a modern player sat down with those same rigs they would be lost. PAFs are not really warm pickups, the warm tones you hear on those old recordings are because the amps were adjusted that way, they generally didn't have their volume pot on the guitar on full, and used their tone pots, plus those recordings were made on tube recording gear. I don't think most guitar players now could pick out a real PAF in a blind audio test. I've noticed that in every "shootout" that included a real PAF, it never scores very high, they always choose the darker, heavier sounding buckers.

I sent a set of my previous PAF attempt to a guy who plays Zeppelin stuff, real good player. He told me Page's guitar tech told him he was surprised at how bright Page's PAFs are. Next thing he tells me is my pickups are kinda bright 3 days later, he says oh, uh he didn't EQ his amp for the pickups, now they sound great. Proves my point

Are there bad sounding PAFs? Yes of course there are, Gibson bought junk magnets for best price, many of those pickups now have coil shorts in them that made them muddy sounding, etc. their parts were inconsistent alloys etc. etc. But there IS a classic PAF characteristic tone and you hear it in every classic rock recording, Bloomfield, Page, Clapton, Allman. Most players don't know what to listen for so they think all those pickups in those guy's recordings sound "different." Well, I've been studying these damn things since I started, and more instensely than ever this last year, so I heard the common thread between those recordings that are real plain to me. PAFs are an open book, you just have to learn how to read......

Oright Possum,
you took words right out of my mouth.
Wehn talking about that TONE I mean that special character wich can only be heard from a guitar wehn a PAF or a good PAF-Replica is installed.
Wehn I got my patent number pickup a few weeks ago I was not shure if it was real or not.
So I intalled the pickup in my LP neck position and what I heard was way different from what most people would call a classic LES PAUL neck pickup tone.It was not the big round singing voice we hear on Slash´s recordings.
The tone was more like Bloomfield more like a Tele (compared to modern style pickups character)and today I am shure that my pickup is a real non T-top Patent No. Pickup with the PAF gene.
And that special character does not come from hand and/or machine winding or a special machine,the secret of that tone is in the parts used in those pickups.Duncans are wound on a Leesona and I can not find that PAF-Honk in his Ants or SL´s.
That is why I ask : Do your pickups have that special PAF -Feel or are they just pickups wound on classic old school machines.

[JGundry]

Today I am shure that my pickup is a real non T-top Patent No. Pickup with the PAF gene.
And that special character does not come from hand and/or machine winding or a special machine,the secret of that tone is in the parts used in those pickups.

I'm now fascinated. Please tell me which parts are different between your PAT sticker pickup with the PAF gene and the T-Top? Can you tell me which parts exactly are the secret to the difference in tone between a T-Top and the PAF gene Pat. Sticker? Is it the keeper bar, or the screws or the magnet or the baseplate or the bobbin or the slugs?

[kevinT]

And that special character does not come from hand and/or machine winding or a special machine,the secret of that tone is in the parts used in those pickups.

Wrong Willis.

Everything affects the tone including the wind.

[Stan H]

I just got the new pickup book thats out and it has some good interviews with the big guy pickup makers.

Hey Possum, not trying to be nosey...well maybe a little, but what pickup book did you get?

[belwar]

Hey Possum, not trying to be nosey...well maybe a little, but what pickup book did you get?

I think he's talking about the guitar pickup handbook.. isbn 0879309318. It's a good book, though the grammar and spelling is worse than mine. No editor touched it. It's got lots of specs of pickups in it .. however the first one I turned to was wrong. He lists the Dearmond Rhythm Chief at something like 6k, when it is 15.0k. The interviews are great - Particularly the one with Jason and Lindy.

b.

[Possum]

....

Yeah thats the book. Shitty editing, spelling mistakes everywhere, I read a review that says there is a whole page missing. The interviews are worth the price of the book.
And yes the PARTS are where the tone is. But its a little bit more complicated than that.....

[kevinT]

Unfortunately, based on the limits of folks' equipment, their winding knowledge is going to be limited to that equipment.

Most folks put Pitch, TPL, and Tension on the down low, however, they can really affect tone.

No one is saying PARTS aren't important...they are.

If you know your machine and what a wind can do, you can compensate for the parts (to a certain degree) that you have to alter the tone and sway it closer to what you want. However, a wind won't totally compensate for crappy parts, but you can improve upon it to a certain degree. For example, if you have parts that create a bright pickup, you can decrease the pitch, increase the TPL, and increase tension....that sort of manipulation.

I have to say that I haven't taken shitty parts and experiemented with the wind in this way, however, I have used quality parts and I've adjusted the wind in various ways and it is like night and day.

[NightWinder]

@#!!!

Now now!!! You realiZe Kev, you must buy the cheapest parts around and turn them into a new model : )....The "CrackMonster"...You can send them out in an old Converse allstar tennisshoe strait out tha' getto!

[kevinT]

good one ..hey wade,

where you been bro?

Yes...I agree...what i stated you can only do to a certain degree....a wind won't compensate for shitty parts but you can improve upon it to a certain degree.

how about the

Frankenbucker

[NightWinder]

: )

good one ..hey wade,

where you been bro?

Yes...I agree...what i stated you can only do to a certain degree....a wind won't compensate for shitty parts but you can improve upon it to a certain degree.

how about the

Frankenbucker

Quite honestly, when you buy your own parts- 50,000 or more, the price between say 1018 and 1022 slugs are the same- I guess if your buying overseas you would have "uncertain" parts- Thats CHeap to me.
Even when your working with correct alloys for your Paf designs, it does not mean they are going to sound great and the magic appears..I was actually thrown for a bit about how the material made some designs a bit dark and mushy.....
Frankenbucker?? What's that?? Another Eddy p.U

[kevinT]

Frankenbucker?? What's that?? Another Eddy p.U

The Frankenbucker is a conglomeration of cheap undesireable parts, e.g., brass baseplates, stew-mac spacer bars, brass covers, and mystery metals for slugs and polepieces. etc...

[Spence]

Wrong Willis.

Everything affects the tone including the wind.

Yeah, some pickups makers seem to have a lot more wind than others. Must be a key ingredient. Must eat more bran.....

[David Schwab]

And that special character does not come from hand and/or machine winding or a special machine,the secret of that tone is in the parts used in those pickups.

Possum here uses as exact parts as is possible, including steel type. I'm sure other like Jon and Spence do too.

My old pat decal humbucker sounds pretty much like the ones I hand wound from Stew-mac parts. Nice and bright.

But correct parts alone wont get you that tone. (hey that rhymes)