Coil offset for neck pickups?

[David Schwab]

Try it with any switching arrangement you want, you will be able to tell if you prefer a balanced or dominant coil set. Peace-out bro's.

First there is no dominant coil set, that's a dumb expression.

Yeah, alter the response of one of the coils and you will change the normal phase cancelation you get with a humbucker and get a different tone.

But in your test it's not from the offset alone.

But unless you are giving people a pickup with a closed loop built in, your test is invalid. Just accept it or fix it and stop making excuses. Or get used to having your peers tell you it's wrong, bro.

[Possum]

...

you know, traditional humbuckers actually AREN'T humbucking. Seth Lover knew that. You will only get true humbucking if you make both coils slug poles or screws poles, with slugs and poles together the pickup isn't getting equal extraneous noise coming into both coils. I read a more recent Lover interview and he realized that and though the sales guys who wanted adjustable pole screws were a buncha dummies :-)

[David Schwab]

Yeah, the part that cracks me up is he wanted a closed top cover, and double slugs, and they wanted to see poles, so he stamped 12 round dimples in the case! They didn't like that either. He also wanted a stainless steel cover. Interestingly EMG is now using SS on their new covered models.

So even if you wind both coils the same, they are slightly unbalanced. Winding the screw coil hotter brings it back into balance.

DiMarzio gets around that on their new PAF model by having the slugs the same shape as the screws. They only look like slugs, but have thin shafts and cap heads. Then they add additional metal with small slugs between the screws and slugs. They have have a very balanced and controlled amount of inductance on both coils.

[Joe Gwinn]

Did ya know they say Bumblebees can't fly.... ...not to worry, no harm done.

Actually, it isn't just urban legend. My father is an Aeronautical Engineer, and knew the story from the source.

It's from a PhD thesis that applied the then (1930s or 1940s) current mathematical theory of flight to bumblebees, and concluded that bumblebees cannot fly. The author was duly awarded a Doctorate for this work. Why? Everybody knows that bumblebees do fly, and quite well thank you. Because the intent was to show that the then current theory was inadequate for situations where flow over the airfoil is unsteady. The bumblebee made a perfect example.

It's only recently, with the advent of sufficiently powerful computers, that the mechanism of lift generation in insects was fully solved.

[David Schwab]

Actually, it isn't just urban legend. My father is an Aeronautical Engineer, and knew the story from the source.

It's from a PhD thesis that applied the then (1930s or 1940s) current mathematical theory of flight to bumblebees, and concluded that bumblebees cannot fly. The author was duly awarded a Doctorate for this work. Why? Everybody knows that bumblebees do fly, and quite well thank you. Because the intent was to show that the then current theory was inadequate for situations where flow over the airfoil is unsteady. The bumblebee made a perfect example.

It's only recently, with the advent of sufficiently powerful computers, that the mechanism of lift generation in insects was fully solved.

I remember hearing that the initial idea was scribbled on a napkin at a restaurant.

Now they see that the Bumble Bee rotates its wings to get more lift.

[RedHouse]

... accept it or fix it and stop making excuses. Or get used to having your peers tell you it's wrong, bro.

Or, you could just try it and stop argueing about it.

[David Schwab]

Or, you could just try it and stop argueing about it.

Brad, I'm not getting why you don't understand what we are saying. I have tried working with closed loop coils around other coils. I know what that does. I did that about 30 years ago. Been there, done that. I don't have to try it.

What we are saying is if you want to hear the two offsets, just wire up your switch differently. I personally think it's a cool idea, but you shouldn't short the smaller coil. Instead of doing it that way, make your switch choose between the connection between the two coils, leaving he end of the smaller coil free, or the finish of both coils, leaving the series connection free. But don't just short the smaller coil to hot to test the offset.

It is altering the results and that has nothing to do with the offset. So on top of the offset, you are hearing something extra.

If you want to prove it to yourself, wire up a humbucker with only the larger coil going to the output. Now make the smaller coil so both ends are free and attached those ends to a switch. Now play the pickup and close the switch so the two ends of the smaller coil are connected.

Hear any difference? Notice that you didn't change the offset, but you will still hear a change depending how how large the closed loop is.

That's what we are saying, not that you can't do tests by switching taps on the coils. Just don't short the taps into a closed loop.

[Seth Leigh]

If Brad had experience showing that customers who prefer a given setting of his switched coil offset test pickup also strongly tended to prefer a purpose-wound pickup with that same offset, then regardless of whether the pickups (switched, and non-switched) sounded exactly the same, his test pickup would have served his purpose, and been a reasonable test. I get the feeling this is what he has been trying to say, ie: that regardless whether the pickups sound the same or not, the customer's ultimate preference is in fact determined appropriately.

To be honest, I think the burden of proof that the customer's ultimate preference is not in fact determined appropriately should rest with the naysayers. If Brad's customers didn't seem pleased with their results, I'm sure Brad wouldn't have taken the attitude he did in this thread.

[Joe Gwinn]

I remember hearing that the initial idea was scribbled on a napkin at a restaurant.

Well, maybe. Father didn't mention a napkin. I think that the napkin legends started in Silicon Valley.

Now they see that the Bumble Bee rotates its wings to get more lift.

Yes. There have been a series of articles in Science and Nature on this over the last few years.

[David Schwab]

To be honest, I think the burden of proof that the customer's ultimate preference is not in fact determined appropriately should rest with the naysayers.

Why? The burden of proof is with the person making the claims that the shorted coil doesn't effect the outcome of the tests.

I could care less what his customers think. You can play a pickup for a customer, and then give them something entirely different, while telling them it's the same thing, and chances are they won't notice! I wouldn't so that, but it's been done many times. Just recently there was that show with a bunch of cooking students that were given tuna and told it was beef (or something not tuna), and the students said how wonderful it was! They believed what they were told.

Several people have pointed out the problem with the test based on common knowledge that this effect does indeed exist. Bill Lawrence even patented such a system for altering the resonant peak of a pickup with a closed coil. So I suppose Mr. Stich doesn't know what he's talking about?

There are no "naysayers" here (though people love to use cliché "internet phrases"). We aren't making it up, nor are we making some wild claim that can't be backed up with science.

It's a REALLY simple matter or wiring the switch differently, and then the test will be more valid by eliminating the closed loop effect. Why he's being stubborn about it is beyond me. And personally I couldn't care less.

As far as coil offsets, I do them, and sometimes as much as a thousand turns. Depends on that you are looking for.

[voodoochild]

I used to wind both coils equal. Then I tried offsetting both neck and bridge pickups. After listening to what players said rather than what I thought, I discovered that most players(minus a few jazz players) seemed to prefer an "edgy" sounding neck pickup that most people associate with a Strat neck tone. I also found that most players seem to prefer a smoother bridge pickup and not an edgy sounding one. That said it made player sense for me to wind an offset neck bucker and a balanced bridge bucker. Also blending magnets. I personally love A3 neck and A4 or A5 for the bridge. A3 for both if I am trying to do the PAF thing. I almost forgot to answer the original question. When I offset the neck pickup I wind the slug side hotter, Mostly because its closer to the bridge than the screw side which seems to give it a strat like presence IMO.

[RedHouse]

...It's a REALLY simple matter or wiring the switch differently, and then the test will be more valid by eliminating the closed loop effect. Why he's being stubborn about it is beyond me. And personally I couldn't care less.....

I'm not being stubborn, I'm just not agreeing with you and that seems be the problem ....BUT...I have added another diagram to my website that should allow you and Joe to give it a rest.

http://classicamplification.net/Pick...Rig.htm#Update



Peace-out Bro's

[kevinT]

All I wanted to know was what folks were doing and why.


but hey....I'll take all the info I can get....thanks fellas.

[David Schwab]

I'm not being stubborn, I'm just not agreeing with you and that seems be the problem ....BUT...I have added another diagram to my website that should allow you and Joe to give it a rest.

Brad, we were just being helpful, not attacking you!

[David Schwab]

All I wanted to know was what folks were doing and why.


but hey....I'll take all the info I can get....thanks fellas.

I think the main thing is when both coils are balanced, you will have some high frequency attenuation, and some reinforcements of the lows and mids.

If you offset the coils you get more high end and less of a bass boost.

I can't speak for the slug/screw thing, since I don't generally make those pickups.